The Rich Young Ruler / Why Do You Call Me Good?

Red Sky at Morning

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This came out of a thread on Beer, but the question was so central that I thought it might make an interesting thread.

"How do Muslims take things out of context?

Are you not taking what Jesus said out of context when he said "why do you call me good?" by comparing what he said there with something else he said at another time in a completely separate conversation?

If I were to mash up a bunch of different quotes from you, from completely different posts and use them to say you said something and this is what you meant by it, you would say I'm twisting your words, so why do you do that with what Jesus said?"

This question comes up so frequently in such discussions...

The phrase "why do you call me good?" is frequently understood by Muslims to mean that Jesus is here creating separation between his own moral goodness and the superior true standard of God's goodness.

The story of the "rich young ruler" might just be the most important story of all for Muslims to understand from a Biblical perspective. The meaning might be counter-intuitive to many but it really is worth considering.

An better understanding of the rich young ruler of Matthew 19 would revolutionise your understanding of the message of the Gospel, as well as show you the purpose of this rhetorical device Jesus uses.

In order to frame the question, the wider question of the passage needs to be considered...

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler he could be saved by obeying the commandments?

To understand Jesus’ response to the rich young ruler’s question—“What must I do to be saved?”—we must consider three things: the background of the rich young ruler, the purpose of his question, and the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The young man had asked Jesus, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16). Jesus responded, “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments” (verse 19). At first glance, it appears that Jesus is saying that the young man and, by extension, all people must obey the commandments in order to be saved. But is that really what He was saying? Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an “alternative plan”?

This link goes on to explore further...

https://www.gotquestions.org/rich-young-ruler.html

Exploring the possible answers together might be quite interesting though?
 

JoChris

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Q: "How do Muslims take things out of perspective?"
A: like every other pseudo-Christian cult. Select isolated verses and ignore/twist what contradicts their beliefs.

The whole account needs to be read and considered carefully to realise the underlying message that Jesus is giving to the young ruler, that his heart is with his wealth and not with God.

Jesus sometimes tested people's faith, Jesus sometimes tested people's understanding, Jesus sometimes asked confusing questions to expose people's true intentions and so on. He didn't make some things easily clear.

Some things are obvious only to those who WANT to see.
 
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@JoChris you wrote "Select isolated verses and ignore/twist what contradicts their beliefs."
i don't see how christians are any different. although muslims have done this...i'm very vocal about it when they do. It took me a while to become familiar with the themes in the bible but eventually it began to make sense.

My understanding of the so called 'divinity' of Jesus is that basically Christians definitely have a flawed perspective. Not all but 99.99% do.
I have brought this up numerous times to no avail....

The logos was with God and the logos is God.

You do not seem to understand how theological and mystical truth are opposed to one another and this statement makes reference to both set of truths.
To understand this, all you need to do is look at nature/life.
Do you see God in the sky?
Can you see God in sky?

Theologically God is 'not inside His creation'. Something monotheists strictly believe. God is not in the creation, nor is there anything with His likeness. So the idea of God in the sky is basically blasphemous.
From the mystical pov all you have to do is open your heart to God and can see His signs are everywhere.

The theological pov is passive, it's about accepting the natural order, truth and obeying commandments that reinforce that truth.
The mystical pov is active, it's about reaching out to various qualities/ideals and shaping the world through them.

Jesus wasn't here merely to bring the mystical pov, he was bringing balance to both sides.

Jesus was making the man aware of the source of goodness as God. It was a way of opening this man to the mystical pov ie that all goodness on earth is also an extension of God.
Then you delve deeper into this topic. Essentially all consciousness is One ie the logos.

hence
love your neighbor
give up all your possessions
etc
it's about letting go of the notion of individual consciousness..

The logos is the expression of the ESSENCE (the INVISIBLE Father..get it?).
"The Father is known THROUGH the Son"

The way I understand the whole theme of the the universal consciousness, the Essence and manifestation of God etc is basically that the Essence expresses itself through the universal consciousness and then through individual consciousnesses ie the infinite in manifestation.
So the whole process of 'God the Creator' is an aspect of the Essence enabling consciousness to manifest in it's many forms right down to the physical.
We have to understand the Essence pervades all things and yet it is above all things.
God is both Transcendent and Immanent.

What Jesus represents is the Universal consciousness/logos manifesting into a single being in order to educate us.
Yes God is in Him ie the Essence is in him and he is the universal consciousness manifested on earth ie the 'ocean in a drop' (sufi terminology, they knew).
However in truth the universal consciousness ie everything, myself included. That's one of the key things to know if you want to experience God from the mystical pov.

example
Matthew 25
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you invited Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’d]">[d]

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You? Or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger and invite You in? Or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’


40 “And answering, the King will say to them, ‘Amen, I tell you, whatever you did to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ e]">[e] 41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Go away from Me, you cursed ones, into the everlasting fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


44 “Then they too will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not care for You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Amen, I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46 These shall go off to everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”


What the christians on this forum need to do is stop being blind and only focusing on the 'divinity' of Jesus.
God wasn't only in Jesus..God is everywhere and in all of us too.
Worship God like you see Him ie become open to His Immanence.

ive made these points a lot of times already.

The Nicene creed was not given by Jesus or the apostles or by the bible in such terms....it is a doctrine that touches on truth but it also made the mistake of making mystical truths contained in the bible, into theological doctrines.
This led to people separating God into 3 whilst also separating their own selves from God. Ie the 'son' became Jesus exclusively..and the 'holy ghost' into something else ie a spirit....(these days where you get demons masquerading as the holy spirit right in the churches).
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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The Christians on this forum demonstrate belief in what the bible actually says.
A "Jesus deity-denier" Christian is an oxymoron.
John 6

"28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

People constantly ask the question of what WE should DO. Religion provides a range of answers. The rich young ruler starts with this standpoint and Jesus answers him according to his question.

He sets out to this young man a standard of holiness so high that even this upright young guy realised that he falls short of that standard. The disciples who were certainly not as squeaky clean as this ruler were beside themselves at the implications of what Jesus said...

Luke 18

26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

The full meaning of those words would only become apparent after Jesus's death and resurrection.

fd204938cdf3302db57457ef727c7e9f--biblical-quotes-religious-quotes.jpg
 
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@JoChris no they don't I've called out Christians for not even knowing their bible and only selectively quoting for example...making fun of how Islam believes in "slavery"(word=abd)
Yet the same word is used in the bible extensively inc in the case of Jesus Christ himself in the Old Testament.
Fact is if you even understood the true meaning Of the Logos and if you chose to worship the Logos you'd become panthiest.
You do not understand the metaphysics so do not understand bible terminology.
 

JoChris

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Word gaming does not make the Word of God invalid. Christians can read the verses and believe what they say. Muslims try to find every excuse and distraction tactic to dismiss verses which confirm Jesus' deity.

Back on topic. The rich young ruler. In a way he was asking Jesus "is near enough good enough? Am I on the right track?" Jesus clearly told him "NO!"

Jesus showed that ruler his real god was his money. His money was an idol. Jesus was testing the ruler's FAITH in GOD. He did not trust that God would provide for him if he gave all his money to the poor. He did not want to give away what made him feel safe and secure in this world. He wanted security in this life AND the next.

Hebrews 11:6 But without FAITH it is impossible to please Him (God)....

Faith in who?

John 6:47 (Jesus said) Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believes on ME hath everlasting life".

Not God, ME.
 
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Word gaming does not make the Word of God invalid. Christians can read the verses and believe what they say. Muslims try to find every excuse and distraction tactic to dismiss verses which confirm Jesus' deity.

Back on topic. The rich young ruler. In a way he was asking Jesus "is near enough good enough? Am I on the right track?" Jesus clearly told him "NO!"

Jesus showed that ruler his real god was his money. His money was an idol. Jesus was testing the ruler's FAITH in GOD. He did not trust that God would provide for him if he gave all his money to the poor. He did not want to give away what made him feel safe and secure in this world. He wanted security in this life AND the next.

Hebrews 11:6 But without FAITH it is impossible to please Him (God)....

Faith in who?

John 6:47 (Jesus said) Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believes on ME hath everlasting life".

Not God, ME.

Word gaming does not make the Word of God invalid.

I don't recall ever saying the Word of God is invalid. I said your belief regarding the logos is invalid/flawed. I stand by this all day long.


Muslims try to find every excuse and distraction tactic to dismiss verses which confirm Jesus' deity.
That's because there are so many that clearly prove he isn't deity.
The only examples where there's some hint towards 'deity' it's talking about the logos/son and even then it has a larger context which i've explained ie the division between the theological and mystical truths
ie
The Word was with God
and
The Word IS God

2 contradictory statements. Most Christians do you really understand why this is written ie what point is being made. They've merely opted to take the latter statement and base their THEOLOGY off it when in truth it was a mystical statement. "The Word was with God" is the proper theological truth that conforms with the basic monothiestic belief of of judaism (and islam for that matter).

All the examples where Jesus is accused of blasphemy...here Jesus was illustrating the mystical truth to the jews.
ie the Transcendence and Immanence of God.

When Christians defend the idea of God manifesting in a man, the 'truth' they attempt to explain is the mystical truth surrounding the Immanence of God.
Guess what? God's Immanence is EVERYWHERE
hence
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.


as I've said, if you went all the way ie if you were intellectually honest you'd become panthiest since the only truth you wish to believe in relies on making a mystical statement into a theological truth.

from the mystical pov, God is everywhere = panthiesm.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Word gaming does not make the Word of God invalid.

I don't recall ever saying the Word of God is invalid. I said your belief regarding the logos is invalid/flawed. I stand by this all day long.


Muslims try to find every excuse and distraction tactic to dismiss verses which confirm Jesus' deity.
That's because there are so many that clearly prove he isn't deity.
The only examples where there's some hint towards 'deity' it's talking about the logos/son and even then it has a larger context which i've explained ie the division between the theological and mystical truths
ie
The Word was with God
and
The Word IS God

2 contradictory statements. Most Christians do you really understand why this is written ie what point is being made. They've merely opted to take the latter statement and base their THEOLOGY off it when in truth it was a mystical statement. "The Word was with God" is the proper theological truth that conforms with the basic monothiestic belief of of judaism (and islam for that matter).

All the examples where Jesus is accused of blasphemy...here Jesus was illustrating the mystical truth to the jews.
ie the Transcendence and Immanence of God.

When Christians defend the idea of God manifesting in a man, the 'truth' they attempt to explain is the mystical truth surrounding the Immanence of God.
Guess what? God's Immanence is EVERYWHERE
hence
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.


as I've said, if you went all the way ie if you were intellectually honest you'd become panthiest since the only truth you wish to believe in relies on making a mystical statement into a theological truth.

from the mystical pov, God is everywhere = panthiesm.
Please don't be offended my our various attempts to present and explain the Gospel. If you didn't matter to us, we wouldn't bother so I hope you won't judge is too harshly for trying!

I also appreciate that given the views you hold to, what we say must seem extremely doubtful. I won't try to argue you into faith in Jesus but I will pray for you @AspiringSoul - you are so close, yet it would take something beyond our words to see things differently

May the Lord bless you.

Here is an alternative perspective from someone more familiar with the Qur'an than me...

 
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Daciple

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I have written concerning this topic in previous interations of this board, and it comes down to which word one chooses to believe Christ is emphasising in the question. I believe the context of the verse and the outright statements made throughout the Gospels and elsewhere in the Bible make the answer very clear as to which word Christ is emphasising in this specific passage, but the emphasis on the word changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

An example that brings this to light is found in the sentence structure :

I never said she stole the wallet....

Depending on which word is emphasised in the sentences changes the meaning of the sentences dramatically.

I never said she stole the wallet : This means that I, me, never stated that she stole the wallet.

I never said she stole the wallet : This means that I said someone stole the wallet but I never stated it was her.

I never said she stole the wallet : I stated that she may have stolen something but she didnt steal the wallet.

So depending on what word is being emphasised determines the subject and the meaning of the sentence above, in speech it is easy to tell what is meant but in the written word it is not always discernible, thus we ought to take look into the deeper context of the surrounding paragraphs, chapters and themes of the book to decide what is actually being spoken.

Why do you call me good?

Depending on the emphasis of the word the next sentence is understood differently, and it is in this aspect that those who deny Christ as God reject what Christ is saying here, but again if we just look to the context clues surrounding the chapter and book it is obvious to all who arent already predisposed to reject Christ, exactly what Christ is saying to the rich man.

Why do you call ME good?

If we emphasis the ME then it is Jesus asking why does the man call HIM good, only God is good.

Why do YOU call me good?

If we emphasis the YOU then the onus is placed upon the man, only God is good, you are calling me God, YOU need to recoginze to whom it is you are speaking...

Does Jesus call Himself Good anywhere else in the Gosples?

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Christ declares Himself to be good, He declares that only God is good, He stated the young man, you are calling me God, recoginze what you are asking and of whom you ask it...

As for the question Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an “alternative plan”?

I do not believe Christ ever offered an alternate plan, nor did He imply one must keep all the commandments to be saved. I believe He began telling Him of the commandments to get the man to recognize his sin and limitations before God, before Jesus. However the man stated he kept them all since his youth, which I believe is a lie to begin with, he refused to recognize his need for repentance or his standing as a sinner before God. His pride blinded him.

Then Jesus says ok well I know what IS the most important thing to you, its CLEARLY not serving God as you lied to me stating, thus lets bring this up to force you to consider what it is you truly believe and idolize. So Christ says sell all you have and follow me. This pricks the mans heart, his false humility, his false profession of honoring God melts away. His faith wasnt in God, he wasnt following these commandments in faith, he was following them in a Religious way and his true faith was in the security of his money.

Religion doesnt save anyone, good works doesnt save anyone, only faith in Christ, giving up everything to follow Him, being Born Again, that is what brings salvation.

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter heaven? Because they have the means and ways to manipulate and provide for THEMSELVES in their eyes all that they need. Just as this man didnt recognize his NEED for grace, his NEED for mercy, his NEED for salvation, most men who are rich do not believe they NEED any of that as well. From much first hand experience many believe THEY are the ones in control and since they believe THEY brought themselves these worldly comforts then THEY dont have the NEED to cry out to God.

Here is the greatest sacrifice we can have before God, its not how much money we give up, its not how much time we spend doing good works that take away from our selfish motivations, "serving him" no God is much more concerned with this than anything else:

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The man stood with pride before God saying look at what I have done, how well I have kept the commandments you told me to keep, I can enter heaven. When he was told to give up his riches, then he was broken and contrite, but what did he do? He went away, He didnt follow Christ.

Had he of admitted off rip, I havent followed these commandments, forgive me I am a Sinner, I cant keep them Jesus HELP ME!! That man would have been saved, then he wouldnt have cared about his riches and he would have happily given them up and followed Christ...

Saved by grace thru faith, this passage actually proves that works do NOT bring salvation and everyone that is betting on their good works and thier "Religon" which is literally every single ideology and religion besides Biblical Christianity and faith in Christ will go away just as this man, heartbroken and sorrowful...
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I have written concerning this topic in previous interations of this board, and it comes down to which word one chooses to believe Christ is emphasising in the question. I believe the context of the verse and the outright statements made throughout the Gospels and elsewhere in the Bible make the answer very clear as to which word Christ is emphasising in this specific passage, but the emphasis on the word changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

An example that brings this to light is found in the sentence structure :

I never said she stole the wallet....

Depending on which word is emphasised in the sentences changes the meaning of the sentences dramatically.

I never said she stole the wallet : This means that I, me, never stated that she stole the wallet.

I never said she stole the wallet : This means that I said someone stole the wallet but I never stated it was her.

I never said she stole the wallet : I stated that she may have stolen something but she didnt steal the wallet.

So depending on what word is being emphasised determines the subject and the meaning of the sentence above, in speech it is easy to tell what is meant but in the written word it is not always discernible, thus we ought to take look into the deeper context of the surrounding paragraphs, chapters and themes of the book to decide what is actually being spoken.

Why do you call me good?

Depending on the emphasis of the word the next sentence is understood differently, and it is in this aspect that those who deny Christ as God reject what Christ is saying here, but again if we just look to the context clues surrounding the chapter and book it is obvious to all who arent already predisposed to reject Christ, exactly what Christ is saying to the rich man.

Why do you call ME good?

If we emphasis the ME then it is Jesus asking why does the man call HIM good, only God is good.

Why do YOU call me good?

If we emphasis the YOU then the onus is placed upon the man, only God is good, you are calling me God, YOU need to recoginze to whom it is you are speaking...

Does Jesus call Himself Good anywhere else in the Gosples?

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Christ declares Himself to be good, He declares that only God is good, He stated the young man, you are calling me God, recoginze what you are asking and of whom you ask it...

As for the question Since the essence of the salvation message is that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), why would Jesus offer the rich young ruler an “alternative plan”?

I do not believe Christ ever offered an alternate plan, nor did He imply one must keep all the commandments to be saved. I believe He began telling Him of the commandments to get the man to recognize his sin and limitations before God, before Jesus. However the man stated he kept them all since his youth, which I believe is a lie to begin with, he refused to recognize his need for repentance or his standing as a sinner before God. His pride blinded him.

Then Jesus says ok well I know what IS the most important thing to you, its CLEARLY not serving God as you lied to me stating, thus lets bring this up to force you to consider what it is you truly believe and idolize. So Christ says sell all you have and follow me. This pricks the mans heart, his false humility, his false profession of honoring God melts away. His faith wasnt in God, he wasnt following these commandments in faith, he was following them in a Religious way and his true faith was in the security of his money.

Religion doesnt save anyone, good works doesnt save anyone, only faith in Christ, giving up everything to follow Him, being Born Again, that is what brings salvation.

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter heaven? Because they have the means and ways to manipulate and provide for THEMSELVES in their eyes all that they need. Just as this man didnt recognize his NEED for grace, his NEED for mercy, his NEED for salvation, most men who are rich do not believe they NEED any of that as well. From much first hand experience many believe THEY are the ones in control and since they believe THEY brought themselves these worldly comforts then THEY dont have the NEED to cry out to God.

Here is the greatest sacrifice we can have before God, its not how much money we give up, its not how much time we spend doing good works that take away from our selfish motivations, "serving him" no God is much more concerned with this than anything else:

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The man stood with pride before God saying look at what I have done, how well I have kept the commandments you told me to keep, I can enter heaven. When he was told to give up his riches, then he was broken and contrite, but what did he do? He went away, He didnt follow Christ.

Had he of admitted off rip, I havent followed these commandments, forgive me I am a Sinner, I cant keep them Jesus HELP ME!! That man would have been saved, then he wouldnt have cared about his riches and he would have happily given them up and followed Christ...

Saved by grace thru faith, this passage actually proves that works do NOT bring salvation and everyone that is betting on their good works and thier "Religon" which is literally every single ideology and religion besides Biblical Christianity and faith in Christ will go away just as this man, heartbroken and sorrowful...
Everything I wanted to say, said so much better than I could!
 

JoChris

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Word gaming does not make the Word of God invalid.

I don't recall ever saying the Word of God is invalid. I said your belief regarding the logos is invalid/flawed. I stand by this all day long.


Muslims try to find every excuse and distraction tactic to dismiss verses which confirm Jesus' deity.
That's because there are so many that clearly prove he isn't deity.
The only examples where there's some hint towards 'deity' it's talking about the logos/son and even then it has a larger context which i've explained ie the division between the theological and mystical truths
ie
The Word was with God
and
The Word IS God

2 contradictory statements. Most Christians do you really understand why this is written ie what point is being made. They've merely opted to take the latter statement and base their THEOLOGY off it when in truth it was a mystical statement. "The Word was with God" is the proper theological truth that conforms with the basic monothiestic belief of of judaism (and islam for that matter).

All the examples where Jesus is accused of blasphemy...here Jesus was illustrating the mystical truth to the jews.
ie the Transcendence and Immanence of God.

When Christians defend the idea of God manifesting in a man, the 'truth' they attempt to explain is the mystical truth surrounding the Immanence of God.
Guess what? God's Immanence is EVERYWHERE
hence
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.


as I've said, if you went all the way ie if you were intellectually honest you'd become panthiest since the only truth you wish to believe in relies on making a mystical statement into a theological truth.

from the mystical pov, God is everywhere = panthiesm.
But I am being intellectually honest. I know that my human reasoning cannot fit an infinite all-powerful Being in the space of my very finite, very imperfect mind. Therefore I have to trust that what the bible says is true, even if my mind may sometimes protest at how strange things probably sound to outsiders of Christianity.

I know I am imperfect, I know I am often wrong and have sinned often. I therefore do not cite my reasonings as the source of Almighty Truth. I therefore go to what I know is the inspired Word of GOD.

Truth is objective, not subjective. Jesus said HE is the way, the truth and the life. Note verses 6-11. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=KJV
They are not the words of a man who believes he is a mere prophet of God.

Jesus always spoke the truth. Therefore I trust what He says more than what I do. I am often mistaken, Jesus is THE truth, personified.
 
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But I am being intellectually honest. I know that my human reasoning cannot fit an infinite all-powerful Being in the space of my very finite, very imperfect mind. Therefore I have to trust that what the bible says is true, even if my mind may sometimes protest at how strange things probably sound to outsiders of Christianity.

I know I am imperfect, I know I am often wrong and have sinned often. I therefore do not cite my reasonings as the source of Almighty Truth. I therefore go to what I know is the inspired Word of GOD.

Truth is objective, not subjective. Jesus said HE is the way, the truth and the life. Note verses 6-11. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=KJV
They are not the words of a man who believes he is a mere prophet of God.

Jesus always spoke the truth. Therefore I trust what He says more than what I do. I am often mistaken, Jesus is THE truth, personified.
"Truth is objective, not subjective."
This is actually my point in the first place ie there is a theological truth and a mystical truth ie both objective and subjective.
So I gave you an example ie "can you see God in the sky?"

You need to pay closer attention to what Jesus said himself. I've pointed it out a lot of times already.

Matthew 6
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!


what Paul said
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.


So it's basically about opening your heart to the Immanence of God (ie the manifestations of God) not just believing in the Transcendence of God where God becomes distant and we do not know Him except through theology.


so of course those verses you link me to, I have a different interpretation of them..only my interpretation doesn't allow for further contradictions and yours does.
Since you obv do belief in these verses literally.....and therefore literally believe in the trinitarian doctrine, there are multiple problems.

ie trinitarian doctrine states that the son and the holy spirit are co-equals with the Father and each other in Godhead.
there's a huge hole right there. The NT contradicts that numerous times.
 
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Please don't be offended my our various attempts to present and explain the Gospel. If you didn't matter to us, we wouldn't bother so I hope you won't judge is too harshly for trying!

I also appreciate that given the views you hold to, what we say must seem extremely doubtful. I won't try to argue you into faith in Jesus but I will pray for you @AspiringSoul - you are so close, yet it would take something beyond our words to see things differently

May the Lord bless you.

Here is an alternative perspective from someone more familiar with the Qur'an than me...


What would you like me to see differently?
I'm trying to make you understand that God is both Transcendent and Immanentand you need to be wary of this when you interpret the NT ie that there's a theological truth and a mystical truth and you have to respect the boundary separating them.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What would you like me to see differently?
I'm trying to make you understand that God is both Transcendent and Immanentand you need to be wary of this when you interpret the NT ie that there's a theological truth and a mystical truth and you have to respect the boundary separating them.
I believe that God is both transcendant, immenant and dynamic, these facets most clearly seen in the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit respectively. I believe that God is one and expresses the attributes of his nature through three persons who are distinct, yet of the same essence.

I also believe my capacity to comprehend the Trinity is very limited as i try to relate it to my own life, which knows very little of this mysterious concept.

That limitation alone gives me no intellectual problem, as I have no more problem with that than a six year old boy asking his quantum physicist father what he did for a job. My understanding is incomplete as the divine is distinct from my own finite and limited nature.

In the end, the there will only be one truth... I wouldn't be trying to present it if I didn't think that it was the most important truth of all. I also have no arrogance about this because I spent a number of years on the wrong side of this truth.
 
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JoChris

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"Truth is objective, not subjective."
This is actually my point in the first place ie there is a theological truth and a mystical truth ie both objective and subjective.
So I gave you an example ie "can you see God in the sky?"

You need to pay closer attention to what Jesus said himself. I've pointed it out a lot of times already.

Matthew 6
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!


what Paul said
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.


So it's basically about opening your heart to the Immanence of God (ie the manifestations of God) not just believing in the Transcendence of God where God becomes distant and we do not know Him except through theology.


so of course those verses you link me to, I have a different interpretation of them..only my interpretation doesn't allow for further contradictions and yours does.
Since you obv do belief in these verses literally.....and therefore literally believe in the trinitarian doctrine, there are multiple problems.

ie trinitarian doctrine states that the son and the holy spirit are co-equals with the Father and each other in Godhead.
there's a huge hole right there. The NT contradicts that numerous times.
So what is your take on the rich young ruler? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:16-30&version=KJV
When I read the account again it made me think that is what many followers of religions would experience, the ones who actually believe in their Higher Being/s. The ones who wish to please their God/gods, not merely follow outward traditions.
How much insecurity, uncertainty and doubt there must be, never knowing if God/gods are pleased with them, if they have failed too many times, can't give enough....

A perfect God deserves perfection. An honest person knows they will never be perfect, they will never undo the past, they will never be able to give enough, tithe enough, pray enough to delete their past, present and future personal sin file on God's Hard Drive, that will never age or get its files corrupted/ erased.

That rich young ruler was definitely an honest man in that area. He knew he wasn't measuring up. He wanted reassurance and further direction, and he had hoped Jesus would give what him what he lacked - inner peace....
 
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I believe that God is both transcendant, immenant and dynamic, these facets most clearly seen in the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit respectively. I believe that God is one and expresses the attributes of his nature through three persons who are distinct, yet of the same essence.

I also believe my capacity to comprehend the Trinity is very limited as i try to relate it to my own life, which knows very little of this mysterious concept.

That limitation alone gives me no intellectual problem, as I have no more problem with that than a six year old boy asking his quantum physicist father what he did for a job. My understanding is incomplete as the divine is distinct from my own finite and limited nature.

In the end, the there will only be one truth... I wouldn't be trying to present it if I didn't think that it was the most important truth of all. I also have no arrogance about this because I spent a number of years on the wrong side of this truth.

When we talk of His immanence in the physical world this is not literal. God can be seen in anything, person or in nature...this doesn't mean for example that God is literally inside a tree.
Just in the same way I see that God is fully present in the logos and the logos was in Jesus hence to see God in Jesus is not a problem for me...
But i never see Jesus as the transcendent God.

Basically the idea is that the Essence (ie the invisible Father) is the only Transcendent. Neither the Son or the Holy Spirit are Transcendent aspect of God. They are the levels through which the Transcendent becomes the Immanent.

The trinitarian doctrine states that all 3 are 'co equals' ie 'fully God' but in the same teaching it says the Son is begotten from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.
They are obv not the same thing.
in my understanding the holy spirit is the microcosm of the logos
the logos represents God's immanence in the universe...and the holy spirit represents God's imminence within me and everyone else individually.
neither the logos or the holy spirit are the Transcendent Essence.
that subtle difference obv makes a huge difference in theology because it means i don't believe Jesus himself is God but can see God is in him.

also what i believe, i don't think it contradicts anything in the NT. Basically there are certain things Jesus said which can be interpreted in different ways individually but you also have to maintain consistency withall the scripture.
obv the belief that Jesus himself is fully God is contradicted too many times.
 
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So what is your take on the rich young ruler? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:16-30&version=KJV
When I read the account again it made me think that is what many followers of religions would experience, the ones who actually believe in their Higher Being/s. The ones who wish to please their God/gods, not merely follow outward traditions.
How much insecurity, uncertainty and doubt there must be, never knowing if God/gods are pleased with them, if they have failed too many times, can't give enough....

A perfect God deserves perfection. An honest person knows they will never be perfect, they will never undo the past, they will never be able to give enough, tithe enough, pray enough to delete their past, present and future personal sin file on God's Hard Drive, that will never age or get its files corrupted/ erased.

That rich young ruler was definitely an honest man in that area. He knew he wasn't measuring up. He wanted reassurance and further direction, and he had hoped Jesus would give what him what he lacked - inner peace....

ok i'll try to give you an example
In islam we ave the attributes of God. Those attributes./names can be recited if you want God's quality in you.
For example, God is Peace (Al-Salaam)
https://tayyibaat.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/as-salaam/
" The Giver of Peace and Security."
Now if i want to attain peace in my life...what i will do is also a continuation of NT themes ie planting the seed of faith.
there's the whole parable of the sower where you have diff qualities of soil.
over the years i learnt different techniques to basically attain things fast IF i want...ie certain things are very powerful when they're recited at certain times in certain ways and in certain states of mind.
Long story short, ive had good and bad experiences in the pursuit of God's qualities so here's the one about 'peace'.
I'll sit in total darkness and recite God's name, say 100 times, which does not take long at all. I'll also do things like visualise physically planting seeds reflecting this 'peace' with the idea that in time they'll grow and produce fruits.
basically it all sounds good right?
however what happens now is the moment I do this...even if in the immediate moment, i feel a feeling that's beyond words and i cn carry that with me.
UNTIL
anything and everything that's directly opposite this 'peace' that was once buried deep in me ie my past...it just comes out into the open very fast.
this is God turning the soil. it's a test but also an opportunity. However ive failed multiple times for example out of nowhere the worst person imaginable who i have strong hate for...(for very good reasons0 just suddenly appears. I've done it numerous times and there is almost always something that just physically happens so fast that catches me off guard. It's happened where there's been an immediate fight..or old wounds have been opened and ive lingered for a while and then just lost track and thought 'ahh fuck it, i can't be bothered anymore'.
in theory it sounds so easy but in reality it is very challenging.
the hardest thing for me to let go of (and im still in the process) are those wounds, whatever type they are..and there are many.
I realised if i want to truely attain peace then ive got to let go of everything, forgive everyone etc.
that inc lowering myself in situations where it's the last thing id want to do.
so maybe another route would be to hold onto the idea of justice ie to read the names of God that pertain to the ideal of justice.
however this presents it's own problems too and i can't be bothered opening up another can of worms
what i found encouraging was how christians learn to forgive even the worst type of people, for their own sake.
I used to look at this as a weakness but realised it's about healing or own self and letting go of those old wounds.

In this case, a rich man who identified with the quality of wealth...was challenged by Jesus to give it all up
basically he was made to confront the state of poverty.
it's the whole theme of giving to others so you can receive more from God ie to have a wealthy mindset even in poverty.
 

JoChris

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Sorry I hadn't responded earlier.

When I was a Catholic schoolgirl I used to recite the rosary and remember the peaceful feelings etc. during the process. It didn't create any long-term change in me. The peaceful feelings were fleeting; they left as soon as my conscience condemned me.... again...

In adult life when I believed (as Charismatic Christians do) in praying in the Spirit and listening to worship songs until altered consciousness occurred I experienced a similar but more intense ecstasy .... they fizzled even faster. Peace from experiences ONLY is a very transitory peace. Faith becomes as strong as the feelings ONLY when feelings become the gauge for measuring faith/ close walk with God.

Therefore I am concerned for you and your faith. If your feelings cease will your faith cease also?

----
In your opinion did the young ruler respond appropriately to Jesus' words?
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

That doesn't sound like a broad philosophical statement - it is a personal challenge to the individual, the rich ruler.
 
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