The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

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#41
If it wasn't for hadith, we'd never know how to pray. So hadith is very important but we don't sit there daily and read them. We get taught the main hadith which help us in our daily lives. It is not a form of worship to sit there and recite hadith!

The Quran is at the centre of our lives.
Yeah, somehow it seems to fly over many Christian's heads: Qur'an is direct Revelation TO Prophet Muhammad, the Hadith collections are history about the Prophet, companions, family and early ummah - which details events as well as notable quotes etc.

What the Narrative/biographical books of the Bible are (whether it be Exodus, Kings, Matthew etc) - is an attempt to bundle up previous Hadiths into a linear form, from the shards of previous revelations.

Unlike the Hadith collections in Islam, there is no way to actually verify which info in the Bible (by itself) is accurate and what isn't.
In the case of the Hadith collections, it gives the possibility (which the Bible doesn't have) of creating methodologies (as we have since very early on in Islam, and the amount of accounts are so voluminous with lineages of each Hadith) to catalog and verify historically accurate information from slanderous falsehoods (as any Muslim knows that strange things did make their way into collections, it's no secret).

Aside from this the Qur'an is to/for Muhammad, then early Mecca, then the World (like us now). The Qur'an is not about Prophet Muhammad :rolleyes:
 





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#42
Just trying to understand then - is your primary difficulty with the Bible intrinsic to the way it is written or the fact that manuscripts with changes exist? The two are separate issues and it might be worth discussing each one in turn?
If you're still thinking like that, then you still don't 'get it'. Your Bible does not have direct revelation to the Prophets, you have narratively-constructed accounts of various Prophet's lives (for instance, like the Sirah of Muhammad) in the form of a library of assorted texts.

The idea of 'changes' is irrelevant. Again, you're giving too much credence to the Bible in regard to the Qur'an, which again, doesn't speak of or acknowledge in any way. Basically, you're not in continuity with which the Qur'an is saying, so you are tripping yourself up there.
 





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#43
Yeah, somehow it seems to fly over many Christian's heads: Qur'an is direct Revelation TO Prophet Muhammad, the Hadith collections are history about the Prophet, companions, family and early ummah.

What the Narrative/biographical books of the Bible are (whether it be Exodus, Kings, Matthew etc) - is an attempt to bundle up previous Hadiths into a linear form, from the shards of previous revelations.

Unlike the Hadith collections in Islam, there is no way to actually verify which info is accurate and what isn't. This also gives the possibility (which the Bible doesn't have) of creating methodologies (as we have since very early on in Islam) to catalog and verify historically accurate information from slanderous falsehoods (as any Muslim knows that strange things did make their way into collections, it's no secret).

Aside from this the Qur'an is to Muhammad, then early Mecca, then the World (like us now). The Qur'an is not about Prophet Muhammad :rolleyes:
...so the objective it to compare two unlike texts.

Clearly as an example of one mans claimed revelation the Qur’an is exclusively so whilst the major and minor prophets are the books of the Bible that say ”thus says the Lord”.

You can create arguments either way on the superiority of style but that really isn’t something worth debating.

I was more interested in the integrity of the texts based on the claims @friend made (referred to in the OP) Testing the simultaneous claim of Qur’anic immutability and Biblical corruption, addition and general unreliability remains the purpose of the exercise.
 





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#44
It is getting comical that Muslims are asking Christians to defend your own faith for you.
I don't need you to defend my faith, we already know the hadith is inauthentic and thats the wide belief among muslims as well. You seem to awfully be desperate to want it to be authentic so its on you to prove that.
The Hadith translating the word as paper without giving explanations in footnotes is strange. Bible commentaries would do that to ensure confusion didn't result.
Its hadith not Quran. Want to compare bible with something? Do it with Quran, thats our main scripture.
You can't have it both ways. Either everything in Islamic texts is from your Allah or it is not.
Like haich said, you don't get to decide. Hadith have never been from allah, they are quotations/sayings. Quran is from Allah.
oes the bible give these recorded evil deeds you mention the thumbs up or thumbs down?

The quotes give a glimpse into the character of Muhammad. It is most definitely relevant. It contradicts the moral code taught in the New Testament especially.

Matthew 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into topphe draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Does Jesus sound like he would be fixated on sex, giving commandments- not mere instructions/ permissions - to MAKE a woman who is NOT her husband suck her breasts?!!!
The person in the hadith WAS the woman's husband regardless of the hadith being correct or not.

Also it doesn't matter whether bible gives a thumbs up or down, you wanted to compare the prophets lol your version of the stories include r*pe and incest and prophets are supposed to be sending the message of God. Do us all a favour and stop wasting our times.
 





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#45
@Haich Do they realize that the very fact that they hesitate to compare Quran's authenticity to the Bible and keep bringing hadiths in (Which are not scripture) says alot about how perfect Quran is. Whenever we challenge someone about their scripture, rather than arguing and finding stuff from our scripture a.k.a the Quran, they always go towards the hadith. It always only manages to strengthen my belief in the perfection of Quran.
 





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#46
...so the objective it to compare two unlike texts.

Clearly as an example of one mans claimed revelation the Qur’an is exclusively so whilst the major and minor prophets are the books of the Bible that say ”thus says the Lord”.

You can create arguments either way on the superiority of style but that really isn’t something worth debating.
Well yes, the Bible is biographical accounts of the lives of many Prophets, whereas the Qur'an is word-for-word monologue transmitted to Prophet Muhammad, just like every Prophet before Muhammad is said to have received divine Revelation.

Like I said earlier, it really does challenge how serious you actually take the Prophets, because Muhammad received divine Revelation which has not been lost to history. The Qur'an is not different from what the Prophets of prior ages received.
The Bible itself even conveys this, albeit in a very abridged form.
 





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#47
@Haich Do they realize that the very fact that they hesitate to compare Quran's authenticity to the Bible and keep bringing hadiths in (Which are not scripture) says alot about how perfect Quran is. Whenever we challenge someone about their scripture, rather than arguing and finding stuff from our scripture a.k.a the Quran, they always go towards the hadith. It always only manages to strengthen my belief in the perfection of Quran.
Can I remind you that I am presently reviewing the following Dan’s book... While I’m doing that I wondered if any Muslims, (particularly @friend who claimed the RSV was a more accurate translation) wanted to discuss the recent findings and investigations into the Codex Sinaiticus. It may seem academic but it was this supposedly ancient text that was used to spearhead the textual criticism of Westcott & Hort (and later Nestle & Allund) away from what is accurately called the “majority text”.
 





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#48
Well yes, the Bible is biographical accounts of the lives of many Prophets, whereas the Qur'an is word-for-word monologue transmitted to Prophet Muhammad, just like every Prophet before Muhammad is said to have received divine Revelation.

Like I said earlier, it really does challenge how serious you actually take the Prophets, because Muhammad received divine Revelation which has not been lost to history. The Qur'an is not different from what the Prophets of prior ages received.
The Bible itself even conveys this, albeit in a very abridged form.
On this line of logic, can you please explain to me objectively why Muhammad was right and Joseph Smith was wrong*?

*Don’t forget he received a message from Meronai the Angel and it was given because the Bible had been “corrupted”?
 





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#49
You aren't getting it. You're so hung up trying to prove this hadith is right. Manama explained it isn't accepted as it's weak. You were asked to bring your proofs, YOU believe it is right, ok post the line of narration and we can talk about it.

I was laughing at you JoChris. You are so sure that you know what you are talking about when it comes to Islam and that just shows the arrogance in your heart tbh.

So sad that you sit there googling hadith to try and trip us up. It wont work and it just makes you come across as a David Wood minion (who got absolutely destroyed in his lecture with Mohamed Hijab).

Dont take your information about Islam from a cross dressing loser!
You really need to stop imaging Christians who are showing what is in your own religious texts have certain attitudes when coming across certain strange passages for the first time. :D You ain't readin' ma mind too good today....

I would just LOVE to see proofs from the Quran that totally contradict commandments like https://muflihun.com/ibnmajah/9/1943

Do any of your Muslim leaders ever address those weird commandments in their speeches or is it a variation of the

1566972890234.png

tactic (via projection of your own pride onto someone who is truly interested in how muslims try to defend this Hadith)?

P.S. I forgot about that clip of his - glad you jogged my memory.
Out of niceness I won't give actual link.
Youtube search : Muhammad, Cross-Dressing, and the London Muslim Patrol (David Wood)

Gives quite a different context to the one you implied.
 





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#50
On this line of logic, can you please explain to me objectively why Muhammad was right and Joseph Smith was wrong*?

*Don’t forget he received a message from Meronai the Angel and it was given because the Bible had been “corrupted”?
The Book of Mormon is purportedly missing biographical narratives, it's just a copy of the Bible (especially books like Isaiah). The very function and form of the Book of Mormon is not a direct Revelation, it just purports to be the missing history (books) out of the Bible.
It's very style and form is exactly like that of the Bible, particularly the KJV (but that's not the important part), again biographies.

The history of Mormonism is quite odd, I do admit, aside from this though his whole first gameplan was to translate things people had written 1700 years earlier (on the golden plates). He claimed to have been given this mission by God, a translation job of stuff people had written. He had no Revelation to himself, this is the most strangest part.

Also from what I do know of Mormonism, they don't actually believe the Bible had been "corrupted" either, they just believe it's incomplete. Unlike them, we don't take the Bible to be categorically 'scripture'.
 





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#51
@Haich Do they realize that the very fact that they hesitate to compare Quran's authenticity to the Bible and keep bringing hadiths in (Which are not scripture) says alot about how perfect Quran is. Whenever we challenge someone about their scripture, rather than arguing and finding stuff from our scripture a.k.a the Quran, they always go towards the hadith. It always only manages to strengthen my belief in the perfection of Quran.
I am being upfront here:
It is very confusing that some Muslims are Quran only, some Muslims are Quran only + some Hadith, some Muslims are all Islam texts are equal.
I thought Hadith was like Islam's practical instructions manual, and the Quran was like theory, the two working together.

In the bible there are different books, different goals, different styles but each of the 66 books is considered equally God-inspired.

I thought Islam would have the same beliefs about their own books.
 





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#52
@Haich Do they realize that the very fact that they hesitate to compare Quran's authenticity to the Bible and keep bringing hadiths in (Which are not scripture) says alot about how perfect Quran is. Whenever we challenge someone about their scripture, rather than arguing and finding stuff from our scripture a.k.a the Quran, they always go towards the hadith. It always only manages to strengthen my belief in the perfection of Quran.
My thoughts exactly!

We know our text well and there are tons of materials from scholars explaining context and time of revelation. There are extensive grammatical and linguistic studies which prove its perfection.

The challenge still stands, bring something like it. Hadith is NOT Quran and never has been equated with it.
 





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#53
My thoughts exactly!

We know our text well and there are tons of materials from scholars explaining context and time of revelation. There are extensive grammatical and linguistic studies which prove its perfection.

The challenge still stands, bring something like it. Hadith is NOT Quran and never has been equated with it.
I am personally treating the Hadith like rumour - I don’t think, given the chain of custody of the materials and the timespan after the Qur’an they were compiled that they could be anything more.

Regards looking at the Qur’an itself, I am working through a series of observations on textual variants in the early copies.

On part 2 now...

 





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#54
In the bible there are different books, different goals, different styles but each of the 66 books is considered equally God-inspired.
Really? Well Judaism takes the Pentateuch as highest authority (and a ritualistic centerpiece), Nevi'im as secondary and Ketuvim as supplementary (although they do use the Psalms often), then with the Talmud (Oral Torah) as the basis of integrating their legalistic traditions.

I thought Islam would have the same beliefs about their own books.
No. The Qur'an is the most important part of Islam as a direct revelation, aside from being the thing that Prophet Muhammad's life's purpose to bring to the word (like Moses receiving direct revelation on Sinai for instance). The Hadith collections are were we learn about the Prophet etc, were many Islamic customs are expanded upon and passed down, were verses of the Qur'an are commented (prophetic exegesis) upon, theology is addressed and many other things, they are very important yes but they're not equal to the Qur'an.
 





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#55
I am personally treating the Hadith like rumour - I don’t think, given the chain of custody of the materials and the timespan after the Qur’an they were compiled that they could be anything more.

Regards looking at the Qur’an itself, I am working through a series of observations on textual variants in the early copies.

On part 2 now...

Jay Smith? not very high standards, lmfao :rolleyes:

That kind of apologetics (combined with hysterical deceit, because it is hysterical) is quite a low bar to set your faith on, considering your giving your ignorance (as in, lack of actual study) to a fraud like him, instead of investing time in actual scholarship. Even Atheist scholars trying to theorize alternative early Islamic history don't give any attention to his theories, there's a reason why he has to market himself to the fanatical evangelical Christian crowd :rolleyes: (because you'll take in his hearsay as gospel, for ideological reasons than actual thorough intellectual study)
 





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#56
Can I remind you that I am presently reviewing the following Dan’s book... While I’m doing that I wondered if any Muslims, (particularly @friend who claimed the RSV was a more accurate translation) wanted to discuss the recent findings and investigations into the Codex Sinaiticus. It may seem academic but it was this supposedly ancient text that was used to spearhead the textual criticism of Westcott & Hort (and later Nestle & Allund) away from what is accurately called the “majority text”.
I'm not talking about you though red, you're good. I wouldn't go too deep into the other thing because I honestly do not know lol. For us the proof of authenticity has been looking at a copy thats 1300+ years ago and looking at one now, both look the same voila no change. I love the simplicity of it though.
 





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#57
I am being upfront here:
It is very confusing that some Muslims are Quran only, some Muslims are Quran only + some Hadith, some Muslims are all Islam texts are equal.
I thought Hadith was like Islam's practical instructions manual, and the Quran was like theory, the two working together.

In the bible there are different books, different goals, different styles but each of the 66 books is considered equally God-inspired.

I thought Islam would have the same beliefs about their own books.
Hadiths aren't even books. There are hadith books but those are QUOTATIONS compiled into books by everyday people. Our scripture has always been and will always be Quran. Hadith give us extra information often times but many are not even real.
We've been saying this since the dawn of time but you'll forget it in two days so not like it matters.

In Islam it has always been and will always be Quran that is preserved and unchanged. If you want to even bother argue something when it comes to reliability or authenticity, bring stuff from Quran.
 





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#58
Hadiths aren't even books. There are hadith books but those are QUOTATIONS compiled into books by everyday people. Our scripture has always been and will always be Quran. Hadith give us extra information often times but many are not even real.
We've been saying this since the dawn of time but you'll forget it in two days so not like it matters.

In Islam it has always been and will always be Quran that is preserved and unchanged. If you want to even bother argue something when it comes to reliability or authenticity, bring stuff from Quran.
Thanks for that clarification! I will try to remember that Quran is the religious text, and that you say Hadiths are quotations only into books.
Does that mean Hadiths aren't ever from Muhammad's (alleged) own words, only followers of his stating they remembered Muhammad saying this or that?

I do keep coming back to the Hadiths because of rumours that is where many of the commandments are given AND they are where personal information is given about Muhammad himself [that has been kept under wraps to western eyes and ears].

I promise I will keep any comments on this thread to Quran only versus bible then.
 





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#59
Thanks for that clarification! I will try to remember that Quran is the religious text, and that you say Hadiths are quotations only into books.
Does that mean Hadiths aren't ever from Muhammad's (alleged) own words, only followers of his stating they remembered Muhammad saying this or that?

I do keep coming back to the Hadiths because of rumours that is where many of the commandments are given AND they are where personal information is given about Muhammad himself [that has been kept under wraps to western eyes and ears].

I promise I will keep any comments on this thread to Quran only versus bible then.
Yeah thats why when we look at the authenticity of a hadith, we have to check the chain of narration. The prophet said something and then another person heard and then he told someone else and it went on and on until it reached the person compiling the books. In these narrators we have people who forgot stuff and people who lied.

The hadith of aisha being 9 is an example. Not only is it not a hadith since its not from the prophet but the person narrating the "hadith" narrates it directly from Aisha r.a which would imply that he heard it from her and then he told it to the narrator but the person has never ever actually met Aisha so obviously its fake although there are more factors proving that as well.

The reason behind the fabrication of hadith starts from people who want to use it to their own benefits but once you look deep into the history right after the prophet's death and the assassination of his caliphs until the creation of Saudi Arabia and the current monarchy. These are massive chain of events and are all interconnected and the Prophet knew this hence him warning his second caliph of his future assassination and the events that will follow. This gets even deeper but this isn't the time or place for that.

Anyway, yes Quran is our scripture, not hadith.
 





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#60
The reason I am posting this information up is not to “disprove” Islam by showing textual variance, but simply to acknowledge it. When discussion of the Bible and Qur’an occurs, the actual issues and ideas are avoided by appealing to the dual false notions of an almost magically unchanged Qur’an and perniciously corrupted Bible. I don’t think either of these ideas holds water so I will continue to research both points for the benefit of shifting the discussion to the real message and meaning of the texts, not some supposed “original” lost message.

Why are there over 30 different Arabic Qur’ans? - Quranic Corrections Ep. 3