The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

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Another post to continue with the personal insults because I'm not buying into the symbolism nonsense.
No, it's that you yourself are preaching to me falsely what our doctrine is and I don't play lightly. Most people don't appreciate someone else lying about what they believe.

For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter: and defender have they none against Allah. The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire.
Qur'an, Surah 13:34-35

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them We provided two gardens of grape-vines and surrounded them with date palms; in between the two We placed corn-fields. Each of those gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein: in the midst of them We caused a river to flow. (Abundant) was the produce this man had : he said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: "more wealth have I than you, and more honour and power in (my following of) men."
Qur'an, Surah 18:31-34

Verily Allah doth know of (every thing) whatever that they call upon besides Him: and He is Exalted (in power), Wise. And such are the Parables We set forth for mankind, but only those understand them who have knowledge. Allah created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): verily in that is a Sign for those who believe.
Qur'an, Surah 29:42-44

Those before them (also) rejected (revelation), and so the Punishment came to them from directions they did not perceive. So Allah gave them a taste of humiliation in the present life, but greater is the punishment of the Hereafter, if they only knew! We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.
Qur'an, Surah 39:25-27

Is then one who is on a clear (Path) from his Lord, no better than one to whom the evil of his conduct seems pleasing, and such as follow their own lusts?
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
And among them are men who listen to thee, but in the end, when they go out from thee, they say to those who have received Knowledge, "What is it he said just then?" Such are men whose hearts Allah has sealed, and who follow their own lusts.

Qur'an, Surah 47:14-16

Look... even if your symbolism idea had any merit, it wouldn't change the fact that the material is utterly unlike anything found in the Abrahamic faiths
How so?

Aside from the fact that each Abrahamic tradition has multiple interpretations of the symbolism given to the afterlife, whether "heaven" or "hell", the symbolism has tendencies of repetition.

The most heavily reoccurring symbol for Jannah (heaven) all throughout the Qur'an is "Gardens beneath which rivers flow", not orgies with 1 million virgins taped on live TV.
Judaism varies between saying that 'heaven' is the Garden of Eden (symbolically mirroring Islam there), to the vague term 'HaOlam HaBa" (the world to come) which doesn't describe anything except anticipation, and then there is also the more radical Jewish belief in reincarnation.

Christianity in this regard literally has no solid interpretation of what any of it's symbolism means, and it shows. However the symbolic representations are very much concerned with symbols like the throne, the 'new jerusalem', references also to the Garden of Eden (notice the trend there?), streets of gold and mansions (which the Qur'an actually does mention in one ayat).

To take obvious symbolism literally in place of what the symbol represents, even when told by the text itself not to, is just ignorance.

Call it a personal insult but you are the one here refusing to engage in polite conversion.

Its very similar to the author of the hindu or hare krishna texts, though.
How much Hindu texts have you actually read? I'm intrigued you bring it up. While Hinduism is in fact, generally an idol-worshiping tradition of religions, it does stand to fact that most of their texts are indeed interpreted far far far more symbolically than any Abrahamic texts. They very much embody in an extreme way the Islamic notion of "it is the meaning that is where the salvation lies, not the outer shell of names and symbols".
Hinduism is far more extreme than our Abrahamic tradition for this reason and it has certainly done them well.
 





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How about the covering and the writing on top of it? What can you say about that?

“These last two examples of corrections concern coverings, where someone at a later date covered over a portion of the text with a small piece of paper, or parchment, and either left it covered over and blank, or wrote something else over top of it. This, like the erasures, is one of the most obvious examples of correcting a text, proving intentional human intervention."
Writing on top means that the writer noted something. for example in Ayesha's manuscript there is a word (ala'sr) added on top of the word (al wosta) which is a note, an explanation or meaning of the word (al wosta).
the (al wosta) prayer means the Asr prayer (afternoon prayer). so Ayesha added the explanation of that word.
 





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Writing on top means that the writer noted something. for example in Ayesha's manuscript there is a word (ala'sr) added on top of the word (al wosta) which is a note, an explanation or meaning of the word (al wosta).
the (al wosta) prayer means the Asr prayer (afternoon prayer). so Ayesha added the explanation of that word.
I believe what they are saying is that someone covered the the previous text (or portion of it) with a piece of paper or parchment and either left it blank or wrote new text over the piece of paper or parchment...implying that the real purpose was to change the text, and not to present an explanation (as you claim it to be).
 





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So I asked a while back what Christain heaven is like...

Anyone care to break it down?
We do not pretend to know it all, like some new posters with obvious God complex, we are satisfied with what we are promised.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 





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Who said anything about that?
I'm floored that it doesn't bother you, the way you lie to "prove" your religion is 'good.' You seem blind to the obvious conflict.

The text still does not permit your version-- even out of context, as you've quoted it. You're reading it incorrectly.HINT: In English, the first letter of proper names are capitalized.
Hint: Bible wasn't written in english. What proof do you have that its meant to be like that?

“These last two examples of corrections concern coverings, where someone at a later date covered over a portion of the text with a small piece of paper, or parchment, and either left it covered over and blank, or wrote something else over top of it. This, like the erasures, is one of the most obvious examples of correcting a text, proving intentional human intervention."
Haich already answered that previously with example from other copies from the exact time period. Those are meant to be explanations, not additions.

How about you talk about how Bible doesn't know how plants grow? Lol you won't.

It is always a comparison-- Islam is built on them.
And are you salty because you always come short or lose in those comparisons?

I believe what they are saying is that someone covered the the previous text (or portion of it) with a piece of paper or parchment and either left it blank or wrote new text over the piece of paper or parchment...implying that the real purpose was to change the text, and not to present an explanation (as you claim it to be).
And they are clearly in the wrong? You have two men debunking a "scripture" while not realizing or understanding that if you change the size or the font of the word doesn't mean you have changed the word. What makes you think they'd understand why those small words have been added?
 





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The worse thing you can do while explaining the verse from exodus is say "this is small G god and not capital G God". Capital and small letters exist in english, they don't exist in Hebrew or Aramaic or most other languages that do not have an english script.
Unless the original verse uses a certain word for god that is different from "God", what you are saying makes no sense. Bible wasn't revealed in english, it wasn't originally written in english. The english rules barely apply to it.
 





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I believe what they are saying is that someone covered the the previous text (or portion of it) with a piece of paper or parchment and either left it blank or wrote new text over the piece of paper or parchment...implying that the real purpose was to change the text, and not to present an explanation (as you claim it to be).
i would like to say @manama is spot on here :
" You have two men debunking a "scripture" while not realizing or understanding that if you change the size or the font of the word doesn't mean you have changed the word. What makes you think they'd understand why those small words have been added? "

also, @Haich (post: 231167) attached early manuscripts which are compatible with each other shows that they are notes/explanations/meanings of words or verses.
What Brubaker has done is examine a select few manuscripts which had notes or written over and ignore many manuscripts which are in line with modern day texts.
Here are examples of manuscripts that correlated with modern scripts (which were ignored by Brubaker, Jay Smith, Al-Fadi and @Red Sky at Morning ) :



 





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We do not pretend to know it all, like some new posters with obvious God complex, we are satisfied with what we are promised.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But that verse doesn't state what you've been promised. What has been prepared for you as a Christian who has served 'God' ?

When I want to reward my students for good behaviour, I do a lesson outdoors or organise a trip. They obey me in this regard, because of the promise of something great and enjoyable. This is what I as an authority over them, reward them with.

As humans, we rarely do anything that has little or no benefit to us. That's why for us, charity is a pillar of faith and is regarded as a good deed or token, in which our reward is with God in the afterlife. This way, you become selfless in the act of giving and charity because you dont expect anything from the poor or the needy or society for that matter. You don't seek the acknowledgement of man, only of God. There are lots of descriptions of heaven, so the Muslim knows what they will enjoy.

What is it that the Christian gets? What is your good news and reward?
 





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What Brubaker has done is examine a select few manuscripts which had notes or written over and ignore many manuscripts which are in line with modern day texts.
Thank you.

What you have realised in engaging with a critique of the text is that it is possible to find variant copies of a text, and that these don’t necessarily invalidate the widely received majority text.

What Westcott & Hort would have done (if they had been critical scholars of the Qur’an) is to have emphasised these few texts to be the real authorities, selected more confusing readings of passages if they were available and ignored the vast agreement in the many other texts! In doing so they would have produced an “Revised Version” of the Qur’an, perhaps based on the “critical” alternate readings of Dan, Jay and Al Fadi ;-)
 





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But that verse doesn't state what you've been promised. What has been prepared for you as a Christian who has served 'God' ?

When I want to reward my students for good behaviour, I do a lesson outdoors or organise a trip. They obey me in this regard, because of the promise of something great and enjoyable. This is what I as an authority over them, reward them with.

As humans, we rarely do anything that has little or no benefit to us. That's why for us, charity is a pillar of faith and is regarded as a good deed or token, in which our reward is with God in the afterlife. This way, you become selfless in the act of giving and charity because you dont expect anything from the poor or the needy or society for that matter. You don't seek the acknowledgement of man, only of God. There are lots of descriptions of heaven, so the Muslim knows what they will enjoy.

What is it that the Christian gets? What is your good news and reward?
There are countless answers to that, and perhaps im not the best person to answer but from the top of my head, they inherit the earth, they receive crown of life, they don't taste second death, seeing God and being in his precense is a reward too. Still though we are given only sneak peak, little details, not whole picture.
EDIT I have to admit that was really good question, I was cross searching Bible and usually rewards simply are mentioned as great, just. Same as punishments. This excerpt from parable is good example.

Matthew 25:21 (KJV) His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Or the usual answer.
Matthew 5:12 (KJV) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

I realize that it does little to satisfy your curiosity :)
 





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How about you talk about how Bible doesn't know how plants grow? Lol you won't.
Not part of the general conversation but I can answer this one. Basically, God created a light source on Day One, which was replaced with the sun on Day Four.

Full reasoning:

We may learn several things about the light God created on Day One (Genesis 1:3–5). First, it was a created light, that is, the light did not exist one moment, but it existed the next moment. That light was not eternal, like God, even though “God is light” (1 John 1:5), “the light dwells with him” (Daniel 2:22), and he “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Timothy 6:16). This light of Day One seems to be separate from God himself.

Second, in order for there to be distinct daytime and nighttime, this light must have been localized and therefore directional (not a diffused or ambient light), and it must have been stationary relative to the earth. For “morning and evening” to have occurred successively, the earth must also have been rotating on its axis from Day One, allowing part of the earth to be exposed to the light while the opposite side was in the darkness.

Third, the light possibly also provided adequate heat to warm the earth, allowing water to exist in liquid form. God separated the “waters . . . from the waters” (Genesis 1:7), and he gathered the surface water into seas (verses 9–10). Heat from this light or another source would also be necessary for the plants, trees, and other vegetation prior to the creation of the sun on Day Four.

Fourth, this initial, temporary light was evidently replaced with the sun on Day Four. On several occasions we see this pattern of temporary physical realities being removed. The pillar of fire and cloud that led Israel to the Promised Land was a temporary provision from God (Exodus 13:21–22, 40:34–38). So also was God’s gift of manna from heaven to feed the Israelites during their wilderness wanderings (Exodus 16:4, 31, 35). And there was the star that led the magi to the child Jesus (Matthew 2:1–10).

Plants certainly need light to survive, but there are several other necessary elements that God provided in his creation.

Light
God created plants to generate their energy from visible light by the process of photosynthesis. Chlorophyll in plant cells mainly absorb blue and red wavelengths, and largely reflect green wavelengths. Using light chlorophyll transforms carbon dioxide and water into sugars (made of hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen atoms). I already posited that God had already created a light source separate from the sun, so the plants created on Day Three would have had the light they needed.

Moderate Temperature
Most plants require a moderate surface and air temperature. Given a relatively constant distance from the sun, this temperature is primarily affected by the earth’s rotation and tilt. Because of the earth’s timely rotation, the heat generated during the day regulates and is regulated by the coolness of the night, thus providing a moderate temperature. Also, the tilt of the earth’s axis of rotation produces the tempering effects of seasons, allowing growing seasons and dormant seasons.

Atmosphere
God created the atmosphere on Day Two, thus protecting and providing for the plant life he subsequently created. The atmosphere protects plants from ultraviolet light and other cosmic rays which damage living cells. The air also provides some of the elements needed for plant life, including nitrogen and carbon dioxide.

Water
Plants need water to survive (Genesis 2:5–6). Plants use water as a component of photosynthesis and as a medium to transport nutrients throughout the different parts of the plant. They also use water to cool the plant from the sun’s heat, and water fills the structure of plants to give them shape and support. In that first week of the world, the water vapor in the air as well as surface water contributed to form a suitable habitat for these organisms.

Land
God separated water and land on Day Two, creating a suitable habitat for both aquatic and land plants. The ground provides a stable location for a plant’s root system, and plants return the favor by helping soil against erosive factors like water and wind. The land also holds many nutrients that a plant needs, such as water and nitrogen, which are collected by the plant’s roots.

In the Genesis account, God recorded that he created the heavens and the earth, but he didn’t tell us why he followed this order. We may conjecture two possible reasons why the sun was not created on Day One. First, God may have wanted to underscore the supernatural origin of life, clearly showing that life did not come from the sun but from him. To be sure, in God’s design the sun is critical for the continuation of life on earth, but life on earth did not come from the sun.

Second, God may have wanted to undermine humanity’s inclination to worship the sun as the originator of life, by which they would have regarded the sun as a deity. God specifically forbade his people from worshiping “the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven” (Deuteronomy 17:3; cf. 4:19; Psalm 121:5–6).
 





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Not part of the general conversation but I can answer this one. Basically, God created a light source on Day One, which was replaced with the sun on Day Four.
There is meaning here that you're missing. This is the problem with assuming it's meant to be taken so literally. Hint: Where does it say "replaced"? You added that bit all on your own.
 





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There are countless answers to that, and perhaps im not the best person to answer but from the top of my head, they inherit the earth, they receive crown of life, they don't taste second death, seeing God and being in his precense is a reward too. Still though we are given only sneak peak, little details, not whole picture.
EDIT I have to admit that was really good question, I was cross searching Bible and usually rewards simply are mentioned as great, just. Same as punishments. This excerpt from parable is good example.

Matthew 25:21 (KJV) His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Or the usual answer.
Matthew 5:12 (KJV) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

I realize that it does little to satisfy your curiosity :)
Thanks for your response.

So by inheriting the earth, you mean you stay on earth? Sorry it probably sounds like a stupid question but I genuinely don't have the foggiest about the Christian afterlife.

You see for us, as Muslims, it's strange to hear that there aren't clear and detailed descriptions of life in heaven in The bible. Even in this world, we are well versed in consequence and reward. It just seems odd that these basics aren't highlighted in your books...

So really, you're saying you have no idea what heaven is really like but you trust it's good?
 





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As someone looking from the outside, I'd be quite uncertain and uncomfortable in gambling with the idea of a Christian heaven as there really doesn't seem to much on offer...

A kid wants cake as a reward for good behaviour, not the promise of a possible cake which nobody has ever seen...it makes bad behaviour worth the risk since there's nothing else worth looking forward to.
 





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Not part of the general conversation but I can answer this one. Basically, God created a light source on Day One, which was replaced with the sun on Day Four.

Full reasoning:

We may learn several things about the light God created on Day One (Genesis 1:3–5). First, it was a created light, that is, the light did not exist one moment, but it existed the next moment. That light was not eternal, like God, even though “God is light” (1 John 1:5), “the light dwells with him” (Daniel 2:22), and he “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Timothy 6:16). This light of Day One seems to be separate from God himself.

Second, in order for there to be distinct daytime and nighttime, this light must have been localized and therefore directional (not a diffused or ambient light), and it must have been stationary relative to the earth. For “morning and evening” to have occurred successively, the earth must also have been rotating on its axis from Day One, allowing part of the earth to be exposed to the light while the opposite side was in the darkness.

Third, the light possibly also provided adequate heat to warm the earth, allowing water to exist in liquid form. God separated the “waters . . . from the waters” (Genesis 1:7), and he gathered the surface water into seas (verses 9–10). Heat from this light or another source would also be necessary for the plants, trees, and other vegetation prior to the creation of the sun on Day Four.

Fourth, this initial, temporary light was evidently replaced with the sun on Day Four. On several occasions we see this pattern of temporary physical realities being removed. The pillar of fire and cloud that led Israel to the Promised Land was a temporary provision from God (Exodus 13:21–22, 40:34–38). So also was God’s gift of manna from heaven to feed the Israelites during their wilderness wanderings (Exodus 16:4, 31, 35). And there was the star that led the magi to the child Jesus (Matthew 2:1–10).

Plants certainly need light to survive, but there are several other necessary elements that God provided in his creation.

Light
God created plants to generate their energy from visible light by the process of photosynthesis. Chlorophyll in plant cells mainly absorb blue and red wavelengths, and largely reflect green wavelengths. Using light chlorophyll transforms carbon dioxide and water into sugars (made of hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen atoms). I already posited that God had already created a light source separate from the sun, so the plants created on Day Three would have had the light they needed.

Moderate Temperature
Most plants require a moderate surface and air temperature. Given a relatively constant distance from the sun, this temperature is primarily affected by the earth’s rotation and tilt. Because of the earth’s timely rotation, the heat generated during the day regulates and is regulated by the coolness of the night, thus providing a moderate temperature. Also, the tilt of the earth’s axis of rotation produces the tempering effects of seasons, allowing growing seasons and dormant seasons.

Atmosphere
God created the atmosphere on Day Two, thus protecting and providing for the plant life he subsequently created. The atmosphere protects plants from ultraviolet light and other cosmic rays which damage living cells. The air also provides some of the elements needed for plant life, including nitrogen and carbon dioxide.

Water
Plants need water to survive (Genesis 2:5–6). Plants use water as a component of photosynthesis and as a medium to transport nutrients throughout the different parts of the plant. They also use water to cool the plant from the sun’s heat, and water fills the structure of plants to give them shape and support. In that first week of the world, the water vapor in the air as well as surface water contributed to form a suitable habitat for these organisms.

Land
God separated water and land on Day Two, creating a suitable habitat for both aquatic and land plants. The ground provides a stable location for a plant’s root system, and plants return the favor by helping soil against erosive factors like water and wind. The land also holds many nutrients that a plant needs, such as water and nitrogen, which are collected by the plant’s roots.

In the Genesis account, God recorded that he created the heavens and the earth, but he didn’t tell us why he followed this order. We may conjecture two possible reasons why the sun was not created on Day One. First, God may have wanted to underscore the supernatural origin of life, clearly showing that life did not come from the sun but from him. To be sure, in God’s design the sun is critical for the continuation of life on earth, but life on earth did not come from the sun.

Second, God may have wanted to undermine humanity’s inclination to worship the sun as the originator of life, by which they would have regarded the sun as a deity. God specifically forbade his people from worshiping “the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven” (Deuteronomy 17:3; cf. 4:19; Psalm 121:5–6).
But earth came after the sun.
 





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As someone looking from the outside, I'd be quite uncertain and uncomfortable in gambling with the idea of a Christian heaven as there really doesn't seem to much on offer...

A kid wants cake as a reward for good behaviour, not the promise of a possible cake which nobody has ever seen...it makes bad behaviour worth the risk since there's nothing else worth looking forward to.
I don't speak for all Christians but for me (as a newbie), the descriptions we are given are comforting enough for me to be reassured that heaven is going to be far better than anything we can conceive of or compare to on earth. Heaven is a place of “no mores.” There will be no more tears, no more pain, and no more sorrow. There will be no more separation, because death will be conquered according to Revelation 20:6. The best thing about heaven is the presence of our Lord and Savior according to 1 John 3:2. At least for me personally, that's more than enough to hope for. Maybe a reason we don't get a full description is because all "the old things will pass away". We can't really comprehend it. I don't expect this to satisfy your curiosity but that's my personal perspective. :)
 





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But earth came after the sun.
Genesis 1:9-16
"9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

Earth came before the plants and sun.
 





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Thanks for your response.

So by inheriting the earth, you mean you stay on earth? Sorry it probably sounds like a stupid question but I genuinely don't have the foggiest about the Christian afterlife.

You see for us, as Muslims, it's strange to hear that there aren't clear and detailed descriptions of life in heaven in The bible. Even in this world, we are well versed in consequence and reward. It just seems odd that these basics aren't highlighted in your books...

So really, you're saying you have no idea what heaven is really like but you trust it's good?
I have some idea how throne room look like but that's about it. We are promised justice, just rewards and just punishment. For me personally that's enough. I'm Christian not because of what will happen with me after death, I'm a Christian because of what happened long time ago. I see no other way, I wouldn't want any other way.
So what will Muslims do througout all eternity? I hope your answer won't leave me thinking that I would got bored of that after few hundred years..
 





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Genesis 1:9-16
"9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

Earth came before the plants and sun.
Bible is not my source for astronomy though.