The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

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It's better that poor souls enlighten up, rather than stay in the dark.
Are you not aware that the important thing to realize about true enlightenment is that when it occurs it will seem like a big joke? It’s the ego that makes plans for enlightenment and imagines it as some type of achievement. :)
 





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I literally stated in that link "bliss, ecstasy, transcendence, union with God" etc. It's not a "place", it's a state after death.

There's heaven and hell, you know the rest.
The linked, standard-issue response to every inquiry.

I still don't believe that it's symbolic though. It sounds like the kind of debauchery that might appeal to adolescent boys or young men with families, all likely of fighting age... a good tool for recruitment.

But it is consistent with everything else I've learned about Islam and the quran (+multiple hadith), so far. .. specifically, it has a different author.


Jo i want to be told why your version of Paradise is better than ours and how it is non material. You can surely answer that question without making us look through the Bible.
lol ... noted

Because all i see in these verses is that people will meet their God, which is something that we will get along with all those other things.
The religion of Comparisons. :p

It isn't about better or worse, at this point, so much as Islam's stark contrast to the Abrahamic faiths. We "only" get to meet our God, as you've said, whereas you get to what... party? If that is what suits you, good. It's a non-issue, afaic... but you cannot say the quran speaks of our God, because it clearly does not. There is no comparison.
 





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Frustrations are clearly growing so guys let's keep it polite. I myself grew tired of JoChris' tone and snapped so I do apologise for my conduct in that regard.

I think the Christians need to understand that the muslim mind won't accept faith or sheer belief as an answer or response to some of the issues posed. We need clarity and when something doesn't make sense to us, it's not that we are playing religion wars or holding christianity in contempt, we are actually trying to make sense of what you believe. I'm sure Christians themselves would be the first to admit that there are challenging concepts (as in challenging our intellect and logic) to grapple with and a lot of ambiguous and abstract ideas which people are just expected to understand and accept.
You need to be able to explain your faith and apparent contradictions in the bible with clarity or else you wont have a leg to stand on when discussing.
I was expressing my disappointment because you are one of the non-Christian regulars on this forum I have respect for. For those who have been blessed with a good education like yourself I do expect higher standards of comments. (That is a compliment, honestly.)
 





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And that kind of misunderstanding will only lead you to error. Failing to understand it results is trash like the rest of your comment.
Nonsense. We both know that. :)


I know the entire story, that is not the point.

The point is that if the Moses one is taken to be "not literal" why is the verse about Jesus taken literally?
King James onlyist? I marvel.

Still... the text does not permit your version-- even out of context, as you've quoted it. You're reading it incorrectly.

HINT: In English, the first letter of proper names are capitalized.​
EXODUS 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.​
'god' translated from the Hebrew-->​
... elohim to Pharaoh [אֱלהִים]
(meaning: godlike)​

EXODUS 7:5
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD...
'LORD' translated from the Hebrew--> ... the Egyptians shall know I am JEHOVAH [יְהוָֹה]
(meaning: Proper name of God)​

For the benefit of others, it reads like this, in context:
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.​
Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.​
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.​
But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.​
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.​
And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded them, so did they. LINK
EXODUS 7:1-6

Its pretty simple to understand.

I've linked the page with the other translations, including the literal, and the interlinear with the original Hebrew.
 





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Nonsense. We both know that. :)
Yes, we both know you lack the intelligence to understand what symbolism is. It's not your fault, you were probably born that way.
However you can ask for help and we can walk you through what the concept of an 'allegory' is. Just ask, you might learn something.
Heaven is not a place, it's not physical. You'd have to be delusional to think it was, or that any of it's descriptions were literal.
If it was literal then it would be basically like reincarnating in only a slightly more favorable realm.
It's clearly something far beyond anything we can possibly conceive of. It can only be understood through symbols we associate with pleasure, as God is the greatest pleasure there is, as the source of all existence.

Your insistence to completely ignore the Orthodox Muslim understanding is on you, not on Islam, the Qur'an or the Prophet. :)
 





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Inevitably you look like an idiot when you go taking symbolism for what the symbol represents and conveys. In the case of the afterlife in Islam, just like in the Bible and in many other religions likewise, cannot be conveyed in language - hence why even the Qur'an itself refers to them as allegories. The afterlife, whether heaven or hell, is a state that can only something experienced, not described.
 





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Continuing and concluding the overview of Dan’s Brubaker’s initial publication then:-

“These last two examples of corrections concern coverings, where someone at a later date covered over a portion of the text with a small piece of paper, or parchment, and either left it covered over and blank, or wrote something else over top of it. This, like the erasures, is one of the most obvious examples of correcting a text, proving intentional human intervention.

Correction Addendum 1: Here we have an example of 8 coverings in the Hussaini Cairo Mushaf (Cairo Mushaf al-Sharif, fol. 33v.) in Surah 2:191-193. Let’s go through each of the 8. These are coverings which were left blank. At first Daniel thought they were covered to patch up some damage to the manuscript, but there were no damages on the reverse side. So, it looks like they were intentionally censoring the text eight times.

In the first line all but the first three letters of wa-akhrijuhūm min ḥaythu “drive them out from wherever” of Q2:191 have been covered. In line 5 all but the first two and the last two letters of fa-in-qātalūhum “so if you fight to kill them” of Q2:191 have been covered. In line 6 all but the first five letters of faaqtulūkum kadhālika “then kill them (imper.), such” of Q2:191 have been covered. In line 7 all but the last five letters of fa-inintahaū “and if they desist” of Q2:192 have been covered. In line 8 the first three letters of ghafūr “forgiving”, and the last three letters of رحيم rahīm “merciful” of Q2:192 have been covered. In line 10 all but the first letter of al-dīn li-llah “the religion belongs to Allah” of Q2:193 has been covered. In line 11 all but the last letter of udwān “enmity” of Q2:193 has been covered. And finally, in line 12 the final two letters of bi-l-shahr “in the month” of Q2:193 have been covered.

Correction Addendum 1: In this final example of a correction we find 3 instances of coverings, which were then written over top, in Surah 13:11-12, found in the Hussaini Cairo Mushaf (Cairo Mushaf al-sharif, fol. 430r.).

On the first line pictured, all but the first two letters of بانفسهم bi-anfusihim “in themselves” of Q13:11 has been written over top of such a taping. One can easily see the covering, while the word written over top has a thicker nib, with darker ink, and uses a completely different script with an elongated style of writing.

On the second-to-last line pictured, all but the initial ʾalif of يركمالذى alladhi yurikum “he who shows you” of Q13:12 has similarly been written over top of a taping and is rather elongated. The stretching is not unusual in this manuscript, but it is more pronounced in this spot than is standard for the original scribe. Instead of an entire sentence a later scribe has simply written a few letters and elongated the letters in order to fill the resulting gap.

It is notable that one letter is missing when compared with the 1924 ‘Hafs’ Cairo edition, which has an additional yaʾ between the raʾ and the kaf, ىِذلآمُيكِرُي

On the final line, the وطمعا wa-ṭamaʿā “and hope” of Q13:12 has also been written over a taping, which covered a sentence, but then was replaced with just a few letters, elongated once again.

In all three cases we cannot know what was initially written, but we can see that the new corrections over top all correspond with the ’Hafs’ Caireen 1924 text. Al Fadi wonders whether these coverings were added after 1924, since this manuscript resides in Cairo itself, the very city where the Hafs text was chosen.

In conclusion we can say that these are not examples of Ahruf or Qira’at, which are simply different readings, because those require diacritical marks and vowels, which weren’t even invented when these manuscripts were written.

These corrections are all made with consonantal letters (the Rasm) which anyone can then add their own readings by reciting the text orally (i.e. adding their own vowels, depending on their dialect).

In these 9 episodes Jay and Al Fadi have pretty much destroyed all of the 4 claims Muslims make for their Qur’an. No longer can Muslims claim that the Qur’an is eternal, nor sent down to Muhammad, nor complete at the time of Uthman, nor unchanged in the last 1400 years. These episodes, following just 22 examples of over 4,000 now discovered by Dr Brubaker, clearly suggest that the Qur’an was written by men, corrected and changed by yet other men, and then finally canonized just 85 years ago by still other men.

When we compare the Qur’an with the Bible, we find that the Qur’an begins with thousands of differences, which need to be corrected to one final text in 1924. When we look at the Bible, we find that the differences in it are found much later, but by comparing all 24,000 manuscripts we can know what the original text was, which makes the Bible much better preserved, and much more credible historically than the Qur’an.”

@Red Sky at Morning

I hear the crickets responding to this bro :)
 





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Thank you for giving a clear response to my sincere question. :) The others should follow your example.

That is sort of my point - only a small % of muslims would have the whole text learned off by heart.
Therefore a trustworthy translation of your religious texts are essential, otherwise over the centuries a lot may have been lost.
Wars, plagues, shorter lifespans etc would have had its toll on the number of first generations in battle surely?
nothing is lost for 1400 years so...

dont worry !

Neither willing nor able.
i live in a small town that doesn't have a mosque.
I won't watch foreign movies without subtitles, I most certainly won't listen to someone i don't understand either.
why not explore an islamic center of out of your town.

you dont have to understand, you can just listen to a quran recitation of a certain chapter on youtube and compare it to a person reciting the same chapter by heart.

thats it.
 





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It gets more complex...

“Ka’b ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, the souls of martyrs are in green birds, hanging from the fruit of Paradise, or the trees of Paradise.

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1641

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Tirmidhi

Now I have a good imagination, but even I cannot picture the whole thing with the green birds and the 70 virgins working out, even if plenty of wine was involved. Not being rude, I just find it rather confusing!!
it says the souls of martyrs are in green birds (before judgment day). so after judgment day is over, the martyrs will enter paradise in person not just their souls.
 





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Nonsense. We both know that. :)



King James onlyist? I marvel.

Still... the text does not permit your version-- even out of context, as you've quoted it. You're reading it incorrectly.

HINT: In English, the first letter of proper names are capitalized.​


EXODUS 7:1

And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.​


'god' translated from the Hebrew-->​

... elohim to Pharaoh [אֱלהִים]

(meaning: godlike)​

EXODUS 7:5

And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD...


'LORD' translated from the Hebrew--> ... the Egyptians shall know I am JEHOVAH [יְהוָֹה]

(meaning: Proper name of God)​

For the benefit of others, it reads like this, in context:

And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.​


Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.​


And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.​


But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.​


And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.​


And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded them, so did they. LINK

EXODUS 7:1-6

Its pretty simple to understand.

I've linked the page with the other translations, including the literal, and the interlinear with the original Hebrew.
Capital and small texts exist in hebrew or Aramaic? How do i know this isn't an addition?

And no i'm not a KJV "onlyist" but the person i was talking to, explained to me that in their opinion that is the most accurate text and ofcourse i'd quote what they consider to be accurate.

The religion of Comparisons. :p

It isn't about better or worse, at this point, so much as Islam's stark contrast to the Abrahamic faiths. We "only" get to meet our God, as you've said, whereas you get to what... party? If that is what suits you, good. It's a non-issue, afaic... but you cannot say the quran speaks of our God, because it clearly does not. There is no comparison.
Nobody talked to you elsbet.

Nobody made it a comparison, Jo did. You can't call something "materialistic" and then not show us "non materialistic". You can't say you'll live with God in paradise and then not even be able to explain whether its a literal place or state of being.

Don't quote me halfway through the thread about something you didn't bother reading the context of.
 





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@Red Sky at Morning

I hear the crickets responding to this bro :)
One more time I hear "Elongation" or "Stretching" i'm going to go insane.


This is what stretching looks like. Did the meaning change? No. Did the words change? No. What changed? The handwriting.
bismillah-tatweel-KFGQPC_3615.gif

Example of elongated text with vowel symbols.

500_F_170530413_MIoNAa3Cd2QwaBNZC4Pmrj0kpMxsFBQS.jpg
240_F_126756225_huylqA3vhGquS66JupW5IsHW7QfN33Ta.jpg


Did the words change? No. Meaning change? No.

You can literally stretch arabic words into oblivion and nothing would change. Its just how arabic script works.
 





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One more time I hear "Elongation" or "Stretching" i'm going to go insane.


This is what stretching looks like. Did the meaning change? No. Did the words change? No. What changed? The handwriting.
View attachment 25473

Example of elongated text with vowel symbols.

View attachment 25474
View attachment 25475


Did the words change? No. Meaning change? No.

You can literally stretch arabic words into oblivion and nothing would change. Its just how arabic script works.
This was explained on Red's thread, they still don't get it lol
 





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Inevitably you look like an idiot when you go taking symbolism for what the symbol represents and conveys. In the case of the afterlife in Islam, just like in the Bible and in many other religions likewise, cannot be conveyed in language - hence why even the Qur'an itself refers to them as allegories. The afterlife, whether heaven or hell, is a state that can only something experienced, not described.
Another post to continue with the personal insults because I'm not buying into the symbolism nonsense.

Duly noted.

Look... even if your symbolism idea had any merit, it wouldn't change the fact that the material is utterly unlike anything found in the Abrahamic faiths, regarding the afterlife. It has a different author. Its very similar to the author of the hindu or hare krishna texts, though.
 





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One more time I hear "Elongation" or "Stretching" i'm going to go insane.


This is what stretching looks like. Did the meaning change? No. Did the words change? No. What changed? The handwriting.
View attachment 25473

Example of elongated text with vowel symbols.

View attachment 25474
View attachment 25475


Did the words change? No. Meaning change? No.

You can literally stretch arabic words into oblivion and nothing would change. Its just how arabic script works.
How about the covering and the writing on top of it? What can you say about that?

“These last two examples of corrections concern coverings, where someone at a later date covered over a portion of the text with a small piece of paper, or parchment, and either left it covered over and blank, or wrote something else over top of it. This, like the erasures, is one of the most obvious examples of correcting a text, proving intentional human intervention."
 





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Capital and small texts exist in hebrew or Aramaic? How do i know this isn't an addition?
Who said anything about that?
I'm floored that it doesn't bother you, the way you lie to "prove" your religion is 'good.' You seem blind to the obvious conflict.

The text still does not permit your version-- even out of context, as you've quoted it. You're reading it incorrectly.​
HINT: In English, the first letter of proper names are capitalized.​


And no i'm not a KJV "onlyist" but the person i was talking to, explained to me that in their opinion that is the most accurate text and ofcourse i'd quote what they consider to be accurate.

Nobody talked to you elsbet.

Nobody made it a comparison, Jo did. You can't call something "materialistic" and then not show us "non materialistic". You can't say you'll live with God in paradise and then not even be able to explain whether its a literal place or state of being.
It is always a comparison-- Islam is built on them.

@JoChris still waiting for you to come up with a better paradise.
That's all you. ^^^