The Reformation Happened For A Reason

Red Sky at Morning

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More emotional drivel. For the love of the Most High and for the third or fourth time please stop with your irrelevant posts and address the content of my posts.
Just rewinding a bit - I entitled this thread "The Reformation Happened For A Reason". I'm not sure the usual ping pong of opinions is really getting to that question.

I wanted to try to draw out if possible some understanding of Biblical Christianity as set against the accumulation of "extras" that have confused the message due to the doctrine of Papal Infallibility etc.

Would an understanding of what represents a historically confused Gospel message as set against a real one be of interest?
 

Kung Fu

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Just rewinding a bit - I entitled this thread "The Reformation Happened For A Reason". I'm not sure the usual ping pong of opinions is really getting to that question.

I wanted to try to draw out if possible some understanding of Biblical Christianity as set against the accumulation of "extras" that have confused the message due to the doctrine of Papal Infallibility etc.

Would an understanding of what represents a historically confused Gospel message as set against a real one be of interest?
Red, be honest and go look back into this thread and see where this "ping pong" style of discussion started and you will see it wasn't from.

Regardless, I apologize for wasting my time and yours and participating in this ping-pong style with Elsbet and Rainerann. I should have known better they would have no value to really add to what I was asking.
 

rainerann

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The reformation happened because of the power of the Holy Spirit. The reformation is evidence of the power of the Gospel, period.

The creation of denominations is the result of the effort to oppress the Gospel message. The presence of the reformation is the evidence that it is impossible to do this.

Whether someone still wants to attack the character of the people who were successful in removing the oppression on the church because of the limitations we all face, is a different subject.

There is nothing comparable to the presence of the reformation, which is not to say that this was a perfect movement, but there is nothing comparable to this. There is no intellectual argument to explain it. This was an outpouring of the Spirit that helped preserve the church and contributed to achieving most of the freedoms that the western world enjoys today.

The Gospel preaches freedom from captivity and this is evidenced by the reformation. There are so many evidences of what the Gospel says about the power of God through Christ that is confusing how anyone could ignore this reality and still put any effort into preaching a different message.
 
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The reformation happened because of the power of the Holy Spirit. The reformation is evidence of the power of the Gospel, period.

The creation of denominations is the result of the effort to oppress the Gospel message. The presence of the reformation is the evidence that it is impossible to do this.

Whether someone still wants to attack the character of the people who were successful in removing the oppression on the church because of the limitations we all face, is a different subject.

There is nothing comparable to the presence of the reformation, which is not to say that this was a perfect movement, but there is nothing comparable to this. There is no intellectual argument to explain it. This was an outpouring of the Spirit that helped preserve the church and contributed to achieving most of the freedoms that the western world enjoys today.

The Gospel preaches freedom from captivity and this is evidenced by the reformation. There are so many evidences of what the Gospel says about the power of God through Christ that is confusing how anyone could ignore this reality and still put any effort into preaching a different message.
rainerann - sorry to jump in the middle of this, but the reformation was started by a man who accused Jesus of adultery. Does that mean anything to you?
 

rainerann

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Also, it is worth noting that the Reformation and Protestantism does not revolve around Luther. The reformation is a widespread movement that was happening in different locations without direct influence from the other location demonstrating the power of God by the absence of internet.

I would say that the reformation truly began with Tyndale who died attempting to translate the Bible into English. This was the catalyst for the English reformation and the creation of the Geneva bible which had nothing to do with Luther.

So the question is, how did the reformation take place in different locations without the ability to influence each other if it were not the will of God to deliver the church from the oppression they were suffering from under the authority of the Catholic church?
 

Kung Fu

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rainerann - sorry to jump in the middle of this, but the reformation was started by a man who accused Jesus of adultery. Does that mean anything to you?
From what I've gathered on here only Protestant Christians are saved meaning that the 1000+ years of Christianity before that and therefore the Catholics, Unitarians, Ebionites, Gnostics, and many more are all going to Hell. So a Christian sect that isn't even 600 years old is the only true Christian faith.
 

rainerann

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From what I've gathered on here only Protestant Christians are saved meaning that the 1000+ years of Christianity before that and therefore the Catholics, Unitarians, Ebionites, and many more are all going to Hell. So a Christian sect that isn't even 600 years old is the only true Christian faith.
No, it has nothing to do with being a sect or part of a denomination. Protestant Christians are not the only ones saved. The purpose of the reformation wasn't about Catholic's not being Christian. The purpose of the reformation is that the gospel message does not require the authority the Catholic church was taking in the lives of Christian's living under it.

I don't consider myself a Protestant, but I understand why they protested the behavior of the Catholic church. It is also in accordance with the teaching from the Gospel that we are allowed to do this in the same way as I could protest the teaching of Joel Osteen in modern times. That doesn't mean that I would be starting a new church and every prior church or teaching of Christ was false.

"For what have I to do with judging ooutsiders? Is it not those inside the church2 whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5:12).

It is because of our ability to rebuke teachings within the church that the message of the Gospel has been preserved and does not need to be replaced, and people are being healed every day because of this.
 

Kung Fu

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No, it has nothing to do with being a sect or part of a denomination. Protestant Christians are not the only ones saved. The purpose of the reformation wasn't about Catholic's not being Christian. The purpose of the reformation is that the gospel message does not require the authority the Catholic church was taking in the lives of Christian's living under it.
This is the first time I'm hearing this. Floss, Lady, and the rest of the Christians have been saying something completely different.

The Catholics are considered Christians now because I swear all I hear Protestants and Americans and the British by large say they're not?
 

rainerann

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rainerann - sorry to jump in the middle of this, but the reformation was started by a man who accused Jesus of adultery. Does that mean anything to you?
The reformation was not started by Luther. The reformation was the catalyst that created freedom of religion. To have freedom of religion is to have the ability to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."(2 Peter 3:18).

However, Luther did many good things for the reformation like spending his life trying to translate the Bible into German for the people to be able to read themselves. He was a pioneer in bringing the scriptures to the public that has had a tremendous effect on the church as whole.

This is the primary thing that the reformation achieved--bringing the Bible to the people in their own languages. It did change the direction of the world. Luther was part of this effort, but he was not the founder of reformation. This was a widespread movement taking place in different locations without one having the same opportunity to influence the other the way we do today.
 

rainerann

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This is the first time I'm hearing this. Floss, Lady, and the rest of the Christians have been saying something completely different.

The Catholics are considered Christians now?
Their teachings exceed the teachings that are required according to the Gospel. This excess creates oppression or quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19).

However, all that is required to be saved is to accept Jesus as the Son of God (Romans 10:9).

Therefore, I would not say that every person who says they are Catholic is not a Christian, but I wouldn't ever say that I agree with the teachings of the Catholic church.

I don't know that you aren't misunderstanding what the others are trying to tell you about the Catholic church either because it is often that I see their teachings used as evidence that the Gospel message is weak.

The Gospel message is oppressed by the Catholic church and I think that is what they are trying to express to you.
 

Kung Fu

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Therefore, I would not say that every person who says they are Catholic is not a Christian, but I wouldn't ever say that I agree with the teachings of the Catholic church.

I don't know that you aren't misunderstanding what the others are trying to tell you about the Catholic church either because it is often that I see their teachings used as evidence that the Gospel message is weak.

The Gospel message is oppressed by the Catholic church and I think that is what they are trying to express to you.
Well you're one in a million then. You know full well that generally speaking Protestants don't believe Catholics to be Christians and there are plenty of Christians who have stated exactly that on here. There have been whole threads just on that very point. Lisa, Lady, Floss, JoChris, and many others have stated that Catholics are not Christians. It was hard to misunderstand when they specifically stated that "Catholics are not Christians".

Please, don't feed me bs.

Also, what about before the Catholic Church came into existence and before the Council of Nicaea took place. Were those Christians who were closer to Jesus(pbuh) and the disciples are they "Christian" and are they saved?

Are Catholics saved?
 
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The reformation was not started by Luther. The reformation was the catalyst that created freedom of religion. To have freedom of religion is to have the ability to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."(2 Peter 3:18).

However, Luther did many good things for the reformation like spending his life trying to translate the Bible into German for the people to be able to read themselves. He was a pioneer in bringing the scriptures to the public that has had a tremendous effect on the church as whole.

This is the primary thing that the reformation achieved--bringing the Bible to the people in their own languages. It did change the direction of the world. Luther was part of this effort, but he was not the founder of reformation. This was a widespread movement taking place in different locations without one having the same opportunity to influence the other the way we do today.
I don't know about the reformation except what I learned through my kids world history lessons. :). Regardless, if Luther wrote and said the things that he did about Jesus, I can't understand why anyone would believe or follow anything else that he said. The foundations of modern Christianity were built up by liars and slanderers, there's no way around that truth.
 

rainerann

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What's age and having children got to do with the discussion??

Odd statement to make

I think it's worth noting that many do silently read these threads, (myself included) in an attempt to understand Christianity better but it always ends up confusing the reader :confused: not much sense been made here at all...

I don't think all the emotional responses help, our faiths are dear to each other but there really is no need to get personal.
I think it is more difficult to recognize how selfish we are if you have not had children. Being a parent is like being in a humility boot camp. When I was younger, I remember the older people telling me how young people were so passionate and how they had a lot to say. They said this would change over time. It is true, young people have a lot to say and this can be the most judgmental time of your life. Wisdom is demonstrated by using fewer words and online etiquette is important. How you say something is relevant and comes across and you can't hide behind the excuse that you are making logical arguments when they so many insulting comments that it is clear that this person is the most emotional poster of them all.
 

rainerann

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Well you're one in a million then. You know full well that generally speaking Protestants don't believe Catholics to be Christians and there are plenty of Christians who have stated exactly that on here. There have been whole threads just on that very point. Lisa, Lady, Floss, JoChris, and many others have stated that Catholics are not Christians. It was hard to misunderstand when they specifically stated that "Catholics are not Christians".

Please, don't feed me bs.

Also, what about before the Catholic Church came into existence and before the Council of Nicaea took place. Were those Christians who were closer to Jesus(pbuh) and the disciples are they "Christian" and are they saved?

Are Catholics saved?
You ask ridiculous questions that have been answered a hundred times already. Yet, you continue to ask the same questions in order to give the impression that no one is responding to your "logical question."

I already answered this question in this very thread; yet, you are asking again. A person IS saved if they believe that Jesus is the Son of God (Romans 10:9). Salvation is given when a person accepts Jesus IS the Messiah. The book of Romans was written before the council of Nicea and was directed at a Jew and Gentile audience.

I already said this. I have now said it twice, but try your best to repeat the exact same thing you just said in a new and improved way according to your ego for the unknown audience reading this thread. Unfortunately, these people are just as capable of seeing that you are only re-asking the exact same questions over and over again in every thread regarding Christianity that are answered over and over again.

Everyone has a strategy in discussion. Your strategy in discussion is clear and demonstrates your level of maturity and limited familiarity with the actual subject, but I'm sure you will gain some fans just based on the fact that you bash Christianity so much, and this will feed your ego just enough to continue. However, this doesn't actually require developing good arguments on a subject, which is evident in your responses.
 

JoChris

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Then I guess all the prophets and messengers in the OT got it wrong and you Christians got it right. That was sarcasm by the way in case it flew over your head like it did last time.
When you read messages that make you mad, count to 100 or come back when your logical ability is restored to your normal baseline levels. It is likely make you sound more reasonable - at least I hope that. :)

For Christians who believe in dispensation model, we believe that God gave progressive revelation over the Ages, which was completed in Age of Grace. https://www.compellingtruth.org/dispensation-of-grace.html
Therefore God had different levels of judgement according to revelation given to His people. An underlying truth has always been Faith in God is what saves. When the Israelites believed in God (and as a result obeyed His commandments) they were blessed. When they followed other gods etc. those people were greatly punished.

Since you are a Muslim you are unlikely to be aware of this passage which shows faith saved Hebrews who believed in God. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=KJV

Grace was preached by the apostles and the early church. Thanks (NOT) to the Roman Catholic Church legalism and false doctrines infiltrated the church until it was no longer a Christian Church. The reformers sought to return to Christianity according to the bible.

History shows these men's decisions were not always perfect. IMO Luther did not remove enough of the RCC ritualism. Anyone who has done basic high school history is aware some religious wars have occurred for various reasons between Protestants, Baptists, Anabaptists, Lutherans, Anglicans and/or Roman Catholics over the centuries. Those wars were not justified by the bible though.
 

JoChris

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Well you're one in a million then. You know full well that generally speaking Protestants don't believe Catholics to be Christians and there are plenty of Christians who have stated exactly that on here. There have been whole threads just on that very point. Lisa, Lady, Floss, JoChris, and many others have stated that Catholics are not Christians. It was hard to misunderstand when they specifically stated that "Catholics are not Christians".

Please, don't feed me bs.

Also, what about before the Catholic Church came into existence and before the Council of Nicaea took place. Were those Christians who were closer to Jesus(pbuh) and the disciples are they "Christian" and are they saved?

Are Catholics saved?
I said Catholics can be Christians DESPITE the Roman Catholic Church, not because of it. Get it right.

A Christian who learns enough about the true Gospel will eventually have to leave the RCC. They will feel torn between the two.

If a Christian remains in the RCC church that is between them and God. IMO only a biblically illiterate one could do so, but God knows their heart. A Christian who is also a Catholic would be excommunicated by the church if they verbalised their true beliefs.
 

elsbet

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rainerann - sorry to jump in the middle of this, but the reformation was started by a man who accused Jesus of adultery. Does that mean anything to you?
How dramatic.

And no, it wasn't.

Martin Luther-- did not promote Gnostic heresies, reminiscent of the daVinci code, nor did he attempt to strip Jesus of divinity. It's not consistent with his material, so I looked it up.. because I've never heard it before. And it's kind of laughable if you know any Lutherans. As IF they would abide such a thing. o_O

Anywho:
The quote is available in the English edition of Luther's Works. It is from Luther's Table Talk, LW 54:154. Luther didn't write the Table Talk. It is a collection of second-hand comments written down by Luther's friends and students, published after his death.

@grateful servant

A recent New Yorker article on Mary Magdalene,
obviously written with an eye on her role as Jesus' paramour in Dan Brown's best-selling The Da Vinci Code, began by noting that "Brown is by no means the first to have suggested that Christ had a sex life--Martin Luther said it" (February 13-20).

Bruce Chilton, an Episcopal scholar from Bard College, also makes this claim about Luther in Mary Magdalene: A Biography (2005). And a 2003 story in Time magazine declared that "Martin Luther believed that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married."

Did Luther really make these assertions?


An electronic search of the digital edition of Luther's works, the massive Weimar Ausgabe (WA), uncovers no evidence that he did. Only two statements come even close to suggesting these unorthodoxies.

Your link, madam.
 

rainerann

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The church was never supposed to be a static entity after the resurrection of Christ if this is creating confusion for some people. We are not expected to wear the same clothes or use the same language they used during the time of Christ in order for our message to be pure.

The purity of our message is supposed to come from speaking the truth in love and being transformed by the renewing of our minds in order to know God's will (Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 4:15).

Love is something that is also difficult to understand at times. Love isn't Valentine's day card. If it says to speak the truth in love, the suggestion is already implied that the hearer may not like the message, but that messenger loves the hearer enough to say it anyway and risk their rejection and the rejection of others by doing so. To speak the truth in love is to know that you will face persecution for speaking the truth, but you are supposed to do this because of your love for others and your commitment to seeing them come to salvation.

The point in saying to speak the truth in love is not to be committed to telling something that they may not want to hear just so you can flaunt your ego or be recognized as the winner of an argument.

Therefore, changes that took place during the reformation are the result of this teaching from scripture and does not indicate that the church didn't exist prior to this time. We transitioned and increased in our freedom to express the Gospel in our lives. We were able to grow individually in our understanding of Christ.

However, suggesting that this in any way qualifies us to distinguish between who was and who was not saved trhoughout history is ridiculous. I know the requirement to be saved. I know the requirement was present since before the Nicea council. I know everyone who accepted this as the truth was saved. I don't have data or statistics to identify how many people this included from the Catholic church in order to determine the effectiveness of the message that was taught prior to the reformation.

I know from my familiarity with the teachings from the Catholic church that the effectiveness of the Gospel was diminished for at least some part of the time when the Catholic church was a dominant presence, and that the intention of the reformation is to restore this effectiveness was lost during this time. It is only someone trying to trap me that asks such a question like are Catholics saved in order to manipulate me into defending my faith by answering a question like this, which is only being asked so they can turn around and try to point a finger suggesting that there is some hypocrisy in what I said that makes his own opinion more favorable.

To repeat myself again in case anyone wants to actually ask a question that propels an intelligent discussion. The primary outcome of the reformation was the translation of the Bible into a language that the common person could understand. This privilege we have to read the Bible is the result of the reformation and it has inspired all sorts of creativity that has produced new denominations, but the message of the Gospel was to give us the freedom to do this.

So how could the reformation ever be called a failure if we are able to know who we are from the scriptures for ourselves?
 

Thunderian

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IMO Luther did not remove enough of the RCC ritualism.
I found this interesting.

10 Remarkably “Catholic” Beliefs of Martin Luther

1. Crucifixes: “The custom of holding a crucifix before a dying person has kept many in the Christian faith and has enabled them to die with a confident faith in the crucified Christ.” (Sermons on John, Chapters 1-4, July 1537 to Sep. 1540)

2. Private Confession: “Christ Himself placed His Absolution into the hands of His Christian people.… God through a human being looses and absolves him from his sins.… if you want to despise it and proudly continue without Confession, then we must draw the conclusion that you are no Christian and should not enjoy the Sacrament either.” (A Brief Admonition to Confession, 1529)

3. Good Works Are a Necessary Expression of the Authenticity of True Faith: “But our Antinomians do not see that they preach Christ without the Holy Ghost and against the Holy Ghost, because they are willing to let the people continue in their old life, and yet declare them saved, though the logic of it is that a Christian should have the Holy Ghost and lead a new life, or know that he has no Christ.” (On the Councils and the Churches, March 1539)

4. Baptism Regenerates and Saves: “By means of God’s Word, water becomes baptism, that is, a bath unto everlasting life, which washes away sins and saves men.” (Ibid.)

5. Jesus is Present Bodily in the Eucharist, Which Saves and is to be Adored: “Irenaeus and the ancient fathers pointed out the benefit that our body is fed with the body of Christ, in order that our faith and hope may abide and that our body also may live eternally from the same eternal food of the body of Christ which it eats physically.” (That These Words of Christ, “This Is My Body,” etc., Still Stand Firm Against the Fanatics, March 1527)

“[One should not withhold from him such worship and adoration either… one should not condemn and accuse of heresy people who do adore the sacrament.” (The Adoration of the Sacrament, 1523)

6. Wrongness of Contraception and a Pro-Child Outlook: “How many girls there are who prevent conception and kill and expel tender fetuses, although procreation is the work of God!” (Lectures on Genesis, Chapters 21-25, May 1540)

7. Prayer for the Dead: “[We will not and cannot restrain them, nor count it as sin, if they pray for the dead. For we are ever certain from the Gospel, that many have been raised from the dead, who, we must confess, did not receive nor did they have their final sentence; and likewise we are not assured of any other, that he has his final sentence. Now since it is uncertain and no one knows, . . . it is not sin if you pray for them; but in this way, . . .: Dear God, if the departed souls be in a state that they may yet be helped, then I pray that thou wouldst be gracious. … the prayer of the heart, of devotion and of faith…will help the departed souls if anything will.” (Sermon for the First Sunday after Trinity; Luke 16:19-31, 1522-1523)

8. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary: “A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ, but that she conceived Christ through Joseph, and had more children after that.” (That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, 1523)

9. Mary Was Immaculately Conceived and Sinless: “. . . the infusion of the soul [of Mary], is piously believed to have been accomplished without original sin. So that, in that very infusing of the soul, the body was simultaneously purified from original sin, and endowed with divine gifts to receive that holy soul which was infused into it from God. And thus, in the first moment it began to live, it was exempt from all sin.” (Sermon: On the Day of the Conception of Mary, the Mother of God, 8[?] December 1527)

10. An Infallible and Indefectible Church: “[The church must teach God’s word alone, and must be sure of it. The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth [1 Tim 3:15], built on the rock, and called holy and irreproachable [Eph. 2:21]. Thus, one rightly and truly says, 'The church cannot err, for God’s word which it teaches cannot err.' But whatever else is taught or whatever is not with certainty God’s word, cannot be the doctrine of the church, but must be the doctrine, falsehood, and idolatry of the devil.” (Against Hanswurst, April 1541)

“But if we have no true cleric or sacrament, then neither Christianity nor church has remained. This is clearly opposed to the article, 'I believe in one holy, Christian church,' and to the words of Christ, 'I am with you always, to the close of the age,' etc. [Matt. 28:18]. To this I reply thus: First, the church or Christianity has remained and must remain. (The Private Mass and the Consecration of Priests, Oct. 1533)

Luther held all these views throughout his life (several of my examples are seen to be from dates late in his life), with the exception of the Immaculate Conception. In later years (roughly after 1530), he held that Mary was purified and freed from original sin at Christ’s conception and not her own. I have described this view in my own treatments of it (after extensive research), as “Immaculate Purification.” He always held, on the other hand, that Mary was without actual sin. That never changed.​
 
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How dramatic.

And no, it wasn't.
Are you a lutheran? I don't do drama Elsbet - that's not my thing.:eek:
I guess you didn't read through the thread before responding to my statement to rainerann :rolleyes: - I admitted the knowledge I have of the reformation is very limited - based on my kids' world history lessons. :D. The reason I asked if it mattered to you (christians) that one of the prominant figures in the reformation accused Jesus of an evil and gross sin, was because I read it from arty's post here: #1.

The foundations of my religion are based on two things: What God said and what His Messenger Muhammad said. So any reformation in Islam has to be done within these sacred boundaries. Christianity doesn't have anything like that, which is why the Christians have been lead astray by the likes of Paul and Luther. God guides whom He wills and leads astray whom He wills. And the ones who are lead astray are those who reject His Guidance. Can I ask you a favor? And this is sincere Elsbet (not dramatic). Make prostration to God - the one you call Father not son or ghost. Make prostration to Him like Jesus did and with a sincere and humble heart, ask Him to Guide you to the religion that is pleasing to Him. He Alone knows what the hearts contain. Best to you.
 
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