The Real Hero and Heroine of the Garden of Eden Story

[Helioform]

This is just Gnosticism you are not stating anything new.

I believe the story of Adam and Eve is an inaccurate version of the real story of humans being actual descendants of the Angels. Hinduism has the older more accurate depiction.

Humans in the garden of Eden were a genetic experiment that went wrong. An amalgalm of different "angelic" or interdimensional species. The serpent is not a hero it simply added more of its genetic makup into the human species. The Kabbalah mentions the original sin as an intimate relation between Eve and the serpent. The serpent is the reptilian race that is hell bent on controlling humanity by its DNA. The Gnosticism that deifies the serpent is evil and is the common religion of the Theosophists and other Illuminati cults.

 

[TokiEl]

The serpent is the reptilian race that is hell bent on controlling humanity by its DNA.

Yes the serpent seed is very real and is as i type engaged in an extermination campaign against humanity.

So we humans ought to stop killing each other... and start killing serpents right.

 

[floss]

Yes the serpent seed is very real and is as i type engaged in an extermination campaign against humanity.

So we humans ought to stop killing each other... and start killing serpents right.

Serpent seed = 13 satanic blood line?

 

[The Agrarian]

To the OP:

Everything you said is basically a re-hash of 1st century Neo-Pythagorian gnosticism. The Christian faith has fought for millenia against that heresy and produced countless rebukes going back to the Acts of the Apostles. There is a reason it never caught on, even with the post-Roman intelligensia.

Your ideas are neither new nor unique.
If anything they are a by-product of a bad Dan Brown novel.

Try harder.

 

[shankara]

To the OP:

Everything you said is basically a re-hash of 1st century Neo-Pythagorian gnosticism. The Christian faith has fought for millenia against that heresy and produced countless rebukes going back to the Acts of the Apostles. There is a reason it never caught on, even with the post-Roman intelligensia.

Your ideas are neither new nor unique.
If anything they are a by-product of a bad Dan Brown novel.

Try harder.

Yes I'm quite aware that it's an old Gnostic story. I just happen to quite like it, so I retold it. It's strange that you feel the Christian church has been successful in "rebuking" the "heresy" - it might not accept such ideas within its arcane dogmas, but that doesn't make it any less valid. Actually when we look at what the churches actually are they seem to range from self-righteous pharisees convinced of the magical efficacy of rituals for their eternal salvation to crazed americans who think Jesus was a neo-liberal. From the outside it all seems like a bizarre cult with a strange fixation on blood sacrifice.

As a practising Bhakta, I find the logic and philosophy of the Eastern religions much more compelling. For example they don't leave me trying to explain why some people are born to lives of purposeless suffering with no useful end by the strange device of "it is the will of God". In the spiritual path I follow there is a great deal of veneration for the female element, which is totally ignored or at best reduced to a secondary importance within the Abrahamic thing. Hence my liking for this version of the story, which subverts the patriachal, fanatic and fearful energy of the "orthodox doctrines"

 

[TokiEl]

Serpent seed = 13 satanic blood line?

Genesis 3 14So the LORD God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and every beast of the field! On your belly will you go, and dust you will eat, all the days of your life.

15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”



Genesis 6 1Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

3So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.



Numbers 13 32So they gave the Israelites a bad report about the land that they had spied out: “The land we explored devours its inhabitants, and all the people we saw there are great in stature. 33We even saw the Nephilim there—the descendants of Anak that come from the Nephilim! We seemed like grasshoppers in our own sight, and we must have seemed the same to them!”





Now we don't see big nephilim roaming about anymore... but they used to be royalty back then and when they died according to Enoch then their spirits became the demons... those who Jesus used to cast out of people.

What can demons do ? They can possess people but what more ? Can they appear as physical beings as well ?

 

[floss]

Genesis 3 14So the LORD God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and every beast of the field! On your belly will you go, and dust you will eat, all the days of your life.

15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”



Genesis 6 1Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

3So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.



Numbers 13 32So they gave the Israelites a bad report about the land that they had spied out: “The land we explored devours its inhabitants, and all the people we saw there are great in stature. 33We even saw the Nephilim there—the descendants of Anak that come from the Nephilim! We seemed like grasshoppers in our own sight, and we must have seemed the same to them!”





Now we don't see big nephilim roaming about anymore... but they used to be royalty back then and when they died according to Enoch then their spirits became the demons... those who Jesus used to cast out of people.

What can demons do ? They can possess people but what more ? Can they appear as physical beings as well ?

That explained why a demon possessed person typically have super human strength. Thanks
Doesn't seem like they can have physical appearances without a human host.

 

[Alanantic]

The main thing this thread is trying to point out is that if you can suspend your belief in the literal interpretation of scripture, you'll find a depth of understanding that is hidden by these superficial mythologies. Squabbling over interpretation of scripture is simply a waste of time. They're only meant to placate the masses; to keep them from asking questions they know they can't answer.

 

[pescatarian09]

The main thing this thread is trying to point out is that if you can suspend your belief in the literal interpretation of scripture, you'll find a depth of understanding that is hidden by these superficial mythologies. Squabbling over interpretation of scripture is simply a waste of time. They're only meant to placate the masses; to keep them from asking questions they know they can't answer.

Those people who argue over doctrine and scripture arguably have more courage than you because they are willing (if they are sincere) to confine themselves to a fixed, unchanging obective reality, and so to address the question - what is the meaning of life, and to act on the answer to this question in a way that imbues their lives with a meaning and a purpose. They are accepting that ideas hold great power, and that they will have to answer for them, and that what they decide will determine their destiny. When it comes to you, you are not attempting to answer these pressing questions in a meaningful way because you refuse to accept that there could be a valid rationale behind judgement, heaven and hell, because living multiple lives infinitely sounds more appealing than having to face up to the consequences of your every action, and accepting that the way you act will be judged and either punished or rewarded, and is leading you either down a path to hell, or the path up to heaven ('faith without works' soteriology is similarly flawed because it is a relinquishment of responsibility). I don't think existential questions can simply be answered with philosophy quotes. Also when you are talking about the masses, you are creating an artificial distinction, because those in power are also humans looking for answers, and just as much the products of arguments over doctrines and philosophies as the masses are, the difference being that they hold the power to implement their schemes and world philosophies on people, while the general population doesn't hold that power to the same extent.

 

[pescatarian09]

Quran 6:27-32


If only you could see when they will be detained before the Fire! They will cry, “Oh! If only we could be sent back, we would never deny the signs of our Lord and we would ˹surely˺ be of the believers.” But no! ˹They only say this˺ because the truth they used to hide will become all too clear to them. Even if they were to be sent back, they would certainly revert to what they were forbidden. Indeed they are liars! They insisted, “There is nothing beyond this worldly life and we will never be resurrected.” But if only you could see when they will be detained before their Lord! He will ask ˹them˺, “Is this ˹Hereafter˺ not the truth?” They will cry, “Absolutely, by our Lord!” He will say, “Then taste the punishment for your disbelief.” Losers indeed are those who deny the meeting with Allah until the Hour takes them by surprise, then they will cry, “Woe to us for having ignored this!” They will bear ˹the burden of˺ their sins on their backs. Evil indeed is their burden! This worldly life is no more than play and amusement, but far better is the ˹eternal˺ Home of the Hereafter for those mindful ˹of Allah˺. Will you not then understand?



Quran 45:24-35


They say, ‘There is only our life in this world: we die, we live, nothing but time destroys us.’ They have no knowledge of this; they only follow guesswork. Their only argument, when Our clear revelations are recited to them, is to say, ‘Bring back our forefathers if what you say is true.’ [Prophet], say, ‘It is God who gives you life, then causes you to die, and then He gathers you all to the Day of Resurrection of which there is no doubt, though most people do not comprehend.’ Control of everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to God. When the Hour comes, those who follow falsehood will be the losers on that Day. You will see every community kneeling. Every community will be summoned to its record: ‘Today you will be repaid for what you did. Here is Our record that tells the truth about you: We have been recording everything you do.’ Those who believed and did good deeds will be admitted by their Lord into His mercy- that is the clearest triumph- but those who disbelieved [will be asked]: ‘When My revelations were recited to you, were you not arrogant and persistent in wicked deeds? When it was said to you, “God’s promise is true: there is no doubt about the Hour,” did you not reply, “We know nothing of the Hour. This is only conjecture in our opinion. We are not convinced”?’ The evil of their actions will [then] become clear to them. The punishment they mocked will engulf them. It will be said, ‘Today We shall ignore you just as you ignored your appointment with this Day. The Fire will be your home and no one will help you, because you received God’s revelations with ridicule and were deceived by worldly life.’ They will not be brought out of the Fire on that Day, nor will they be given the chance to make amends.

 

[Mr.Anderson]

God created everything, and He saw it was good. So, everything mankind knew at that time was good. When you put the tree of knowledge of good and evil into the equation you'll see that man already knew all that was good but no evil. You're adding evil into mankind's repertoire of knowledge.

Also, the tree of life wasn't forbidden. It has only become forbidden after mankind knew evil. Had mankind been authorized to still eat from the tree of life then we would forever live being evil, corrupt and imperfect. To me this is just a simple logic conclusion you get after looking at things for a bit.

I don't really understand this "quest for knowlgedge"... I mean... what are you gonna do with it? Shankara and the gnosticism per extention compared that as an blissful ignorance, and being happy like animals in cages. I don't know, I look at my dog and my parrots and they seem really happy the way they are and they seem really happy when I come home after work.

My cockatiel could freely fly around the house, we'd cut her feathers and leave her in her cage whe there wasn't anyone around for safety. One day she was outside her cage and she managed to fly away. After some hours she came back home but something scared her and she flew off again. She flew around the block doing her calls and we managed to retrieve after she landed at the bald spot of a statue of St. Francis of Assisi. Tired, hungry and thirsty, we took her home back into her cage so she could rest. Had my cockatiel never flewn off that time things would be really different from how they are today.

I understand why Maldarker compared this to p3d0s. You're taking something pure and doing evil to it just for giggles. Sure, we got knowledge but what did humanity got? It was like yyyyoooou nooowww knowww the knogledge of gooodds and then "oh sh1t I shouldn't have done that!" That's what I never understood about gnosticism and some other dharmic religions... what's the goal of it? It's like a spiritual rag-to-riches story. Shankara mentioned that now we have "real" happiness yeah, the sweet wouldn't be so sweet if not for the sour, right? But blessed be the one that never had to taste the bitterness, that's the other son from the prodigal son parable.

You shall become as gods. Every son earns to be like their parents (at least when they are good parents, you know what I meant) so I don't really blame Eve, looking at it now under this light. If your own son was kidnapped by the clown gang would you blame him or the clown gang?

If you think that Eve was an heroine, ask this woman what her opinion on the subject:

 

[Alanantic]

God created everything, and He saw it was good. So, everything mankind knew at that time was good. When you put the tree of knowledge of good and evil into the equation you'll see that man already knew all that was good but no evil. You're adding evil into mankind's repertoire of knowledge.

Also, the tree of life wasn't forbidden. It has only become forbidden after mankind knew evil. Had mankind been authorized to still eat from the tree of life then we would forever live being evil, corrupt and imperfect. To me this is just a simple logic conclusion you get after looking at things for a bit.

I don't really understand this "quest for knowlgedge"... I mean... what are you gonna do with it? Shankara and the gnosticism per extention compared that as an blissful ignorance, and being happy like animals in cages. I don't know, I look at my dog and my parrots and they seem really happy the way they are and they seem really happy when I come home after work.

My cockatiel could freely fly around the house, we'd cut her feathers and leave her in her cage whe there wasn't anyone around for safety. One day she was outside her cage and she managed to fly away. After some hours she came back home but something scared her and she flew off again. She flew around the block doing her calls and we managed to retrieve after she landed at the bald spot of a statue of St. Francis of Assisi. Tired, hungry and thirsty, we took her home back into her cage so she could rest. Had my cockatiel never flewn off that time things would be really different from how they are today.

I understand why Maldarker compared this to p3d0s. You're taking something pure and doing evil to it just for giggles. Sure, we got knowledge but what did humanity got? It was like yyyyoooou nooowww knowww the knogledge of gooodds and then "oh sh1t I shouldn't have done that!" That's what I never understood about gnosticism and some other dharmic religions... what's the goal of it? It's like a spiritual rag-to-riches story. Shankara mentioned that now we have "real" happiness yeah, the sweet wouldn't be so sweet if not for the sour, right? But blessed be the one that never had to taste the bitterness, that's the other son from the prodigal son parable.

You shall become as gods. Every son earns to be like their parents (at least when they are good parents, you know what I meant) so I don't really blame Eve, looking at it now under this light. If your own son was kidnapped by the clown gang would you blame him or the clown gang?

If you think that Eve was an heroine, ask this woman what her opinion on the subject:

Obviously, there's no point in talking to you!

To be a living being ("I am“) is not the ultimate state; there is something beyond, much more wonderful, which is neither being nor not-being, neither living nor not living. It is a state of awareness, beyond the limitations of space and time. The same source of the will (desire) to live, a source deeper even than life itself . The 'I' is there even without the 'am'. -- Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

[Maldarker]

Obviously, there's no point in talking to you!

To be a living being ("I am“) is not the ultimate state; there is something beyond, much more wonderful, which is neither being nor not-being, neither living nor not living. It is a state of awareness, beyond the limitations of space and time. The same source of the will (desire) to live, a source deeper even than life itself . The 'I' is there even without the 'am'. -- Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Sorry but you can't be nothing because nothing in and of itself is something. You will never obtain that state of nothing because it then becomes....

 

[Alanantic]

Sorry but you can't be nothing because nothing in and of itself is something. You will never obtain that state of nothing because it then becomes....

It's not a state of logic. Once you've had a glimpse of that state, which is beyond space & time, you'll never forget it. You'll realize you aren't your body but the immortal soul within. I first realized it when I was 4 years old.

 

[Aero]

Lol, yall are funny.

In Gnosticism, the serpent from the garden of Eden is not God, nor is it evil incarnate. It's the spirit of wisdom sent from the true God. So again, the serpent could have been anything. It's literally a placeholder for a thing that compelled Eve to choose to eat the forbidden fruit.

Let me explain Gnosticism in its perfect form. The Demiurge is neither good nor evil. It is completely neutral, it's like a train conductor who manages a few moving parts. And God created the Demiurge's existence, along with the physical world as a whole as an error.

The spirit of wisdom being sent to compel Eve to eat the fruit was a correction to that error. Without that correction, nobody could ascend to the higher planes. That's the myth in a nutshell, and it is this simple.

 

[Alanantic]

Lol, yall are funny.

In Gnosticism, the serpent from the garden of Eden is not God, nor is it evil incarnate. It's the spirit of wisdom sent from the true God. So again, the serpent could have been anything. It's literally a placeholder for a thing that compelled Eve to choose to eat the forbidden fruit.

Let me explain Gnosticism in its perfect form. The Demiurge is neither good nor evil. It is completely neutral, it's like a train conductor who manages a few moving parts. And God created the Demiurge's existence, along with the physical world as a whole as an error.

The spirit of wisdom being sent to compel Eve to eat the fruit was a correction to that error. Without that correction, nobody could ascend to the higher planes. That's the myth in a nutshell, and it is this simple.

You need to see through the mythology. The story of Eden, magic trees and talking snakes are just a way of describing the Conscience. We all have one to a degree. Even my dog knows when he's been bad. Disney's myth of the conscience was the concept of Jiminy Cricket sitting on your shoulder and being your guide through life. Just don't forget there is no cricket and there never was...

 

[shankara]

Those people who argue over doctrine and scripture arguably have more courage than you because they are willing (if they are sincere) to confine themselves to a fixed, unchanging obective reality, and so to address the question - what is the meaning of life, and to act on the answer to this question in a way that imbues their lives with a meaning and a purpose. They are accepting that ideas hold great power, and that they will have to answer for them, and that what they decide will determine their destiny. When it comes to you, you are not attempting to answer these pressing questions in a meaningful way because you refuse to accept that there could be a valid rationale behind judgement, heaven and hell, because living multiple lives infinitely sounds more appealing than having to face up to the consequences of your every action, and accepting that the way you act will be judged and either punished or rewarded, and is leading you either down a path to hell, or the path up to heaven ('faith without works' soteriology is similarly flawed because it is a relinquishment of responsibility). I don't think existential questions can simply be answered with philosophy quotes. Also when you are talking about the masses, you are creating an artificial distinction, because those in power are also humans looking for answers, and just as much the products of arguments over doctrines and philosophies as the masses are, the difference being that they hold the power to implement their schemes and world philosophies on people, while the general population doesn't hold that power to the same extent.

So you're saying that only your teaching can provide "the meaning of life"? That's a rather one-sided attitude. There are plenty of scriptures in my own religion which offer answers as to the purpose of all of this. In a way it's "whatever you want it to be", as we are all free to choose within the limits of the karmic reactions which what we do creates. We have indeed been given "free will", and we aren't going to be eternally punished for exercising it in whatever way we please. We will experience the results of our deeds, but obviously such results aren't going to be eternal, that could never be anything but exaggerated. Of course really this life used properly is to practise a spiritual path, hence why I practise Bhakti. But nothing is obligatory, forced upon us with the threat of unending suffering.

Anyway, what @Aero is saying is pretty spot on. I guess my own perspective isn't that of traditional Gnosticism, I think the idea of a Demiurge is pretty complex, could be seen in one way as evil and in another as neutral or good. But what this story is about, so far as I can tell, is embodiment. The experience of embodiment, with all of it's animalism, confusion, bewilderment, and temptation, is something we have to go through to reach a stage which one could call "experienced innocence". Before having a body, and yes many bodies, we were just absorbed in the supersoul, innocent but without any development or "human" consciousness. We had to "fall" into matter, to take on the "temptation" of the Serpent (because in matter we are inevitably going to fall into temptation). The woman is the material element, the Mother, which has "love" for the experience of the material world, with all of the dualism that involves.

Actually women are very heroic. They take a lot of suffering from men, suffer martyrdom in deeply unequal relationships of dominance and power, are more merciful than men. Eve represents that kind of heroism, of being seen as "sinful" for simply being human. All of the Abrahamic religions are seriously patriachal, and actually a lot of that comes down to the recieved interpretation of this story.

I think that if people are open-minded they tend to grasp that these stories actually have a number of interpretations existing simultaneously. The one accepted by the common dogma is just one facet, and I think not the highest, just the one most suited to keep people under control through fear of judgement and its accompanying fanaticism.

 

[Maldarker]

It's not a state of logic. Once you've had a glimpse of that state, which is beyond space & time, you'll never forget it. You'll realize you aren't your body but the immortal soul within. I first realized it when I was 4 years old.

Yeah it actually is a state of logic and being.You can not be "Nothing" for being in a state of "Nothing" your still something.

 

[pescatarian09]

So you're saying that only your teaching can provide "the meaning of life"?

Yes. When there is more of something, its value decreases. When there is less of something, it becomes more precious and more worthy of being guarded and protected. This maxim can be applied to reincarnation vs life-and-death. Only when there is a single life to live can the inestimable value of each and every life, and the full magnitude of culpability you hold for each action, be realised. When there is one life to live, the meaning of life automatically becomes more serious. The stakes are higher. The value of people's lives, and their behaviours, becomes more important. There is more meaning in life. When there are many lives to live, one of those lives do not hold so much importance as if there were only one. Putting aside other arguments against reincarnation for the minute, it would be more rational for you to wager that there is only one life instead of multiple lives, because if you are wrong, the consequences are dire, and if you are right, you have nothing to worry about.

That's a rather one-sided attitude.

There's only one, objective reality. There is only one truth, not many truths.

 

[Alanantic]

Yeah it actually is a state of logic and being.You can not be "Nothing" for being in a state of "Nothing" your still something.

Have you experienced this state for yourself? You can't really know anything about it until you have.