The Real Hero and Heroine of the Garden of Eden Story

Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
No, we don’t.

And I can come.to many happy hypothetical accomodations as to why Onan should have been so outrageously punished etc. But really none of them fit with a literalist reading of the bible.

And that always ends up in the same place, god knows, we don't, have faith.

I have trouble with that.
Do you know y Onan got punished? Hint its not for jacking it specifically.
 






Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Not the reason though this is probably more of a reason. "After Onan's brother Er was slain by God, his father Judah told him to fulfill his duty to his brother by entering into a levirate marriage with his brother's widow Tamar to give her offspring. Religion professor Tikva Frymer-Kensky has pointed out the economic repercussions of a levirate marriage: any son born to Tamar would be deemed the heir of the deceased Er, and able to claim the firstborn's double share of inheritance. However, if Er were childless, or only had daughters, Onan would have inherited as the oldest surviving son."

He was banging the chick and wouldn't knock her up in effect raping her. Was also told by his father to give her a child which he didn't honor see commandment #4 & yup his days weren't long upon the land.
 






Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,250
I'm just glad there's an acknowledgement of how important bloodlines are. Not everything has to be spiritual.
God promised a Messiah from the line of Abraham, Issac, Jacob and later David. Matthew and Luke both set out Jesus’s lineage, from his mother’s and father’s line.

There are spiritual reasons why this promised line is significant.
 






Last edited:

shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
I just say this and thought of the OP in this thread…

View attachment 58649
Sorry, are you suggesting I'm some kind of satanist? Because honestly all of that stuff leaves me cold, I think it's childish western pseudo-philosophy, nothing more than a reaction against... well... organized Christianity, actually. I do think that there isn't some total dualism, some entity actually called Satan who actually rebelled against God at some point in history, because that is also rather childish, the kind of thing people believe because they want to convince themselves that they have some special knowledge or insight which people who don't understand the "literal, true, interpretation" lack. But I don't have some particular fascination with "darkness" or anything like that, I just find the reasoning behind the Abrahamic thing rather lacking in logical consistency. Not to mention that anyone with a little knowledge of mythology would know that the serpent is a symbol of wisdom.

I'm actually not saying that the interpretation I gave (borrowed) is the "one and only true explanation". I think all religious stories have multiple levels of meaning, can be seen from a number of different angles. I just thought that this particular heretical one might be a good way to call into question certain dogmatic beliefs which seem to be very prevalent here.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,250
Matthew 12:30

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

^ Not my words, and I won’t be anyone’s judge.
 






shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
Matthew 12:30

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

^ Not my words, and I won’t be anyone’s judge.
I think the point on which we disagree is what it means to be "with" Jesus. Like, I would say that my practise of mantra meditation is a means of "taking up my cross". Or even resisting clearly twisted and false interpretations of the things He said (yeah, a capital letter is merited). There are a few things in the NT which I have some doubts about, things which I think might have been inserted, others which I think might have been removed. But anti-Christian does not mean anti-Christ.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,250
I think the point on which we disagree is what it means to be "with" Jesus. Like, I would say that my practise of mantra meditation is a means of "taking up my cross". Or even resisting clearly twisted and false interpretations of the things He said (yeah, a capital letter is merited). There are a few things in the NT which I have some doubts about, things which I think might have been inserted, others which I think might have been removed. But anti-Christian does not mean anti-Christ.
Let me be honest here…

It really doesn’t matter what you or I define as being “with” Jesus. His understanding of it will be the one that counts.

That might be something worth meditating on.
 






Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,250
…Obviously the whole thing is a myth, to think otherwise would require serious self-deceit. Not that I'm saying that the evolutionary theory explains everything, I don't see how it can explain consciousness in particular.
I would welcome your input on the subject!

 






Aero

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
5,934
He came from a Christian background but he believed that man was basically good (if given the right environment) and hated the idea that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.

The communist experiment was based on that starry eyed premise. How successful that has been can be assessed in the rear view mirror of history.
Marx sounds like a boring optimist. To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with optimism per se. It's just naive and superficial.

I don't think we need a rearview mirror to look at communism. China, and Russia are encroaching on everything. You have probably heard of all the recent cyber attacks waged against America. And capitalism, nor Christianity has an answer for those Godless heathens.

When your enemies are subsidizing cyberwarfare you should probably match that energy. I'm not trying to sound an alarm here, but every time someone implies "socialism never works" I'm always annoyed and amused at the same time. At the pace America is going, we will lose the wars of the future if they are against the communists. We will lose badly.
 






Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Marx sounds like a boring optimist. To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with optimism per se. It's just naive and superficial.

I don't think we need a rearview mirror to look at communism. China, and Russia are encroaching on everything. You have probably heard of all the recent cyber attacks waged against America. And capitalism, nor Christianity has an answer for those Godless heathens.

When your enemies are subsidizing cyberwarfare you should probably match that energy. I'm not trying to sound an alarm here, but every time someone implies "socialism never works" I'm always annoyed and amused at the same time. At the pace America is going, we will lose the wars of the future if they are against the communists. We will lose badly.
Well since you brought up Marx did you forget what he said about socialism?
 






Oceanic

Established
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
162
God promised a Messiah from the line of Abraham, Issac, Jacob and later David. Matthew and Luke both set out Jesus’s lineage, from his mother’s and father’s line.

There are spiritual reasons why this promised line is significant.
Yep! What I meant by not everything is spiritual, is that people's bloodlines matter and will be judged. I typed my words wrong, I was originally supposed to type bloodlines are just as important as spirituality.
 






Cintra

Star
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
3,187
Yep! What I meant by not everything is spiritual, is that people's bloodlines matter and will be judged. I typed my words wrong, I was originally supposed to type bloodlines are just as important as spirituality.
I can see how bloodlines matter in the biblical narrative.
But are you applying that to ordinary people? And if so, how?
 






Oceanic

Established
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
162
I can see how bloodlines matter in the biblical narrative.
But are you applying that to ordinary people? And if so, how?
The bloodlines of everyone, no matter the Nationality matters. This is applied to everyone, because everyone has a purpose and their lineage takes a huge roll in it, which is why, from a PERSONAL perspective, God put it in Adam and Eveś hearts to fulfill his will, and specifically them.
 






Aero

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
5,934
Well since you brought up Marx did you forget what he said about socialism?
Actually, I did. I thought I made it obvious I don't read a lot of Marx.

I think all the fatalist philosophies like his are only mildly interesting. Like often enough the logic is sound, there is just a lot of gray area that gets overlooked. In contrast, Christian fatalism is purely based on feelings. Like it's all fate, or destiny set by God and not the consequence of some complex equation.
 






Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Actually, I did. I thought I made it obvious I don't read a lot of Marx.

I think all the fatalist philosophies like his are only mildly interesting. Like often enough the logic is sound, there is just a lot of gray area that gets overlooked. In contrast, Christian fatalism is purely based on feelings. Like it's all fate, or destiny set by God and not the consequence of some complex equation.
Marx's said that socialism is just the in between before communism. Karx quote "socialist models are utterly unrealistic “utopian” dreams."

Never looked into fatalism
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,250
Actually, I did. I thought I made it obvious I don't read a lot of Marx.

I think all the fatalist philosophies like his are only mildly interesting. Like often enough the logic is sound, there is just a lot of gray area that gets overlooked. In contrast, Christian fatalism is purely based on feelings. Like it's all fate, or destiny set by God and not the consequence of some complex equation.
I don’t know if you have watched it @Aero but Loki is based on that [false] premise…

467BEAA8-FA08-40FC-8E0F-29A5EC9B9511.jpeg

 






shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
Marx's said that socialism is just the in between before communism. Karx quote "socialist models are utterly unrealistic “utopian” dreams."

Never looked into fatalism
Yeah people need to dissociate the Marxist form of socialism from the many other socialist theories. It may have been the most influential form of the idea, but in reality it was the worst one. Extreme materialism and a twisted interpretation of the Hegelian dialectic, with the dumb notion of a "dictatorship of the proliteriat". The whole thing of "it's either capitalism or Marxist communism" is a false dichotomy created by those with interests in the neo-liberal system.
 






Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Yeah people need to dissociate the Marxist form of socialism from the many other socialist theories. It may have been the most influential form of the idea, but in reality it was the worst one. Extreme materialism and a twisted interpretation of the Hegelian dialectic, with the dumb notion of a "dictatorship of the proliteriat". The whole thing of "it's either capitalism or Marxist communism" is a false dichotomy created by those with interests in the neo-liberal system.
Your missing Marx's point. It's easy to see. People are not good by nature. Where is the false hood of that? Look at history. Are people good to each other, or is it usually some group screwing some other? Look at the first social experiment in the colonies didn't work out so well for the pilgrims which began as a socialist commune.
 






shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
Your missing Marx's point. It's easy to see. People are not good by nature. Where is the false hood of that? Look at history. Are people good to each other, or is it usually some group screwing some other? Look at the first social experiment in the colonies didn't work out so well for the pilgrims which began as a socialist commune.
Yeah, I don't agree with Marx's view of human nature. Clearly our nature is partly determined by the society around us, but not entirely, not to the extent that he believed. Still there could be possibilities for a better society, workers owning the means of production, if we could start to build it, make efforts in that direction. I'm skeptical that it's actually possible to overcome the entrenched interests which keep the capitalist system alive, revolution is not the answer. But trying to live in community, co-operate rather than compete, build non-hierachical structures, this is a useful project. Actually it's generally anarchists rather than socialists who attempt this.

Accepting capitalism just because we don't like communism is (again) the product of a false dichotomy.
 






Top