The Real Hero and Heroine of the Garden of Eden Story

Aero

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You need to see through the mythology. The story of Eden, magic trees and talking snakes are just a way of describing the Conscience. We all have one to a degree. Even my dog knows when he's been bad. Disney's myth of the conscience was the concept of Jiminy Cricket sitting on your shoulder and being your guide through life. Just don't forget there is no cricket, and there never was...
If that's how you want to look at it, I think that's fine as long as you don't minimize the power that symbols have. Conscience is one piece of the puzzle and is highly influenced by symbols and the Ego. Whether or not a thing exists is irrelevant. Especially for archetypes, and there's a virtually unlimited number of those. For the most common archetypes, such as the father archetype, it can be like they are on your shoulder.

Lucifer, which I would translate as "light from God" or more accurately the spirit of wisdom, doesn't sit on my shoulder. I think it's part of some universal cycle. It's not like a father, nor is it even like a guide. I would call it a beacon or a fixed point in every dimension.

Since time is circular, the fixed point is only noticeable to the initiated at certain times. And it's never noticeable to the uninitiated. More importantly, if you are uninitiated, what good are you to spirituality?

Anyway, what @Aero is saying is pretty spot on. I guess my own perspective isn't that of traditional Gnosticism, I think the idea of a Demiurge is pretty complex, could be seen in one way as evil and in another as neutral or good. But what this story is about, so far as I can tell, is embodiment. The experience of embodiment, with all of it's animalism, confusion, bewilderment, and temptation, is something we have to go through to reach a stage which one could call "experienced innocence". Before having a body, and yes many bodies, we were just absorbed in the supersoul, innocent but without any development or "human" consciousness. We had to "fall" into matter, to take on the "temptation" of the Serpent (because in matter we are inevitably going to fall into temptation). The woman is the material element, the Mother, which has "love" for the experience of the material world, with all of the dualism that involves.

Actually women are very heroic. They take a lot of suffering from men, suffer martyrdom in deeply unequal relationships of dominance and power, are more merciful than men. Eve represents that kind of heroism, of being seen as "sinful" for simply being human. All of the Abrahamic religions are seriously patriachal, and actually a lot of that comes down to the recieved interpretation of this story.
That's pretty good. I mostly agree, especially the part about women.

You see things well through a microscope. I favor a wider lens, though. Mainly because people get lost, that's my main takeaway from what you said about women. How could people not be described as lost when "Mother" gets overpowered by literal junk.

Religion is definitely a part of the lost factor. But Idk about the story of the garden of Eden contributing specifically. All I'm saying is I wouldn't give it that much credit. Modern interpretations certainly don't help, though.
 

Mr.Anderson

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Obviously, there's no point in talking to you!
Au countraire.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I view your mention of zeal as an compliment.

I have a friend who was really interested in buddhism and hinduism linked by siddharta gautama, he got as involved as possible with the material resourses we have in our region (ex. the closest monastery is thousand miles away) and at that time I decide that to criticize something you have to know that thing, so even tough I didn't really agreed with him and I don't believe in things like the samsara, the circle of reincarnations, karma, dharma and everything because they don't make any sense to me I know very well what they mean.

You mentioned that you felt (or realized) this at age four. Well, this is faith. True faith can only be attained trough personal experience since faith is a decision you made (to belive in X or in Y and be sure that this is the real thing).

Same thing goes for gnosticism, regarding my life experiences and observations it doesn't seem right.

At the very, it comes down to the nature of the world itself. Is this an illusion and we were never meant to be here or is it something else?
 

Maldarker

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Have you experienced this state for yourself? You can't really know anything about it until you have.
If you had you wouldn't be here you would be nothing. So if you have and you are still here well then....it's probably not that.
 

Alanantic

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Au countraire.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I view your mention of zeal as an compliment.

I have a friend who was really interested in buddhism and hinduism linked by siddharta gautama, he got as involved as possible with the material resourses we have in our region (ex. the closest monastery is thousand miles away) and at that time I decide that to criticize something you have to know that thing, so even tough I didn't really agreed with him and I don't believe in things like the samsara, the circle of reincarnations, karma, dharma and everything because they don't make any sense to me I know very well what they mean.

You mentioned that you felt (or realized) this at age four. Well, this is faith. True faith can only be attained trough personal experience since faith is a decision you made (to belive in X or in Y and be sure that this is the real thing).

Same thing goes for gnosticism, regarding my life experiences and observations it doesn't seem right.

At the very, it comes down to the nature of the world itself. Is this an illusion and we were never meant to be here or is it something else?
You can call the experience whatever you want. I just remember waking up from the Dream of Life. Life IS God's Dream, if that helps, And, for a few moments I was The Dreamer. I was One with Everything; out of Space/time. Just as one can suddenly realize they're dreaming and they become lucid in it. Maslow called it a "peak experience", in Zen it's called Satori. It's the moment when the personal sense of self drops away and you realize you are the Oneness of Everything, not this mortal body.

.
"You are the immortal self (consciousness) living only temporarily in a dream that is sometimes (imagined) to be a nightmare. That is the higher philosophy (and truth) of the mystics." -- Yogananda

"The soul is undergoing a dream from which it must awake. This dream represents our association and identification with the world. The fact that it is described as being a dream means that whatever is in it has to be false. Nothing in a dream can be true. Waking up from that dream is the ultimate goal, Self-realization." -- The main theme of "Yoga Vasistha"
 

Alanantic

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If you had you wouldn't be here you would be nothing. So if you have and you are still here well then....it's probably not that.
Rookie, you must unlearn many things before you'll understand what I'm talking about.
 

Maldarker

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Rookie, you must unlearn many things before you'll understand what I'm talking about.
LOL!!! Sure now your just being those type of people. your logic is flawed i have played your intellect jumps in my life. I keep coming back to to ONE TRUTH so unless you can bet that then...
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Lol, yall are funny.

In Gnosticism, the serpent from the garden of Eden is not God, nor is it evil incarnate. It's the spirit of wisdom sent from the true God. So again, the serpent could have been anything. It's literally a placeholder for a thing that compelled Eve to choose to eat the forbidden fruit.

Let me explain Gnosticism in its perfect form. The Demiurge is neither good nor evil. It is completely neutral, it's like a train conductor who manages a few moving parts. And God created the Demiurge's existence, along with the physical world as a whole as an error.

The spirit of wisdom being sent to compel Eve to eat the fruit was a correction to that error. Without that correction, nobody could ascend to the higher planes. That's the myth in a nutshell, and it is this simple.
Sophia and the Archons?

 

Alanantic

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LOL!!! Sure now your just being those type of people. your logic is flawed i have played your intellect jumps in my life. I keep coming back to to ONE TRUTH so unless you can bet that then...
Hey, we're all God's little transceivers. Most people come here to transmit, not receive. Of course there's only One Truth. I'm a non-dualist, after all!...for now.
 

shankara

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because if you are wrong, the consequences are dire, and if you are right, you have nothing to worry about.
I refuse to put a wager on things, and to act based upon fear. That is the foundation of all the ugly fanaticism which is the cause of so much suffering in the world. I cannot believe in a deity who would eternally punish the little sparks of its own essence simply for following their own hearts.

I have also encountered people who are into Islam who have much more positive feeling for other religious teachings.

In any case, threatening people with eternal damnation accomplishes nothing, and does a great deal of damage.
 

Alanantic

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I refuse to put a wager on things, and to act based upon fear. That is the foundation of all the ugly fanaticism which is the cause of so much suffering in the world. I cannot believe in a deity who would eternally punish the little sparks of its own essence simply for following their own hearts.

I have also encountered people who are into Islam who have much more positive feeling for other religious teachings.

In any case, threatening people with eternal damnation accomplishes nothing, and does a great deal of damage.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." -- Thomas Paine
 
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I refuse to put a wager on things, and to act based upon fear. That is the foundation of all the ugly fanaticism which is the cause of so much suffering in the world. I cannot believe in a deity who would eternally punish the little sparks of its own essence simply for following their own hearts.

I have also encountered people who are into Islam who have much more positive feeling for other religious teachings.

In any case, threatening people with eternal damnation accomplishes nothing, and does a great deal of damage.
I have other arguments against reincarnation which I will post when I can, but that was a simple one (based on Pascal's wager) that I added as an afterthought to the primary point about whether multiple lives or a single life can be described as being more meaningful. A single life is evidently more meaningful. Do you agree?
When there is more of something, its value decreases. When there is less of something, it becomes more precious and more worthy of being guarded and protected. This maxim can be applied to reincarnation vs life-and-death. Only when there is a single life to live can the inestimable value of each and every life, and the full magnitude of culpability you hold for each action, be realised. When there is one life to live, the meaning of life automatically becomes more serious. The stakes are higher. The value of people's lives, and their behaviours, becomes more important. There is more meaning in life. When there are many lives to live, one of those lives do not hold so much importance as if there were only one.
I disagree about the fear and threats part. Life is to be taken seriously, it is no mere trifle. If you think its about fear, that's sort of missing the point because life is a zero sum game in the end anyway - death awaits at the end, so you must make up your mind whether you like it or not. Fear is a powerful and useful motivator, and death is an inescapable condition of life that we are all subject to. Ironically, it is the very fear of knowing that life will end, and that time is limited, that has caused you to even consider these existential questions in the first place!

As for salvific exclusionism, you can read the quote attached. "The nature of truth is that it is absolute and not relative... perennialism violates the law of non-contradiction." There is one reality, and so, one path to seeking the purpose of our existence, and one answer to the question "what is the meaning of life."
 
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Alanantic

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No offense, but you wallow in platitudes, the meaning (or even the context) of which you don't understand.
I was being facetious... And, yes, I do wallow in the words of great men and women, who can say things better than I ever could. Guilty as charged.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@shankara

You said “I refuse to put a wager on things, and to act based upon fear. That is the foundation of all the ugly fanaticism which is the cause of so much suffering in the world.”

I do have sympathy for your position, and I think from where you stand it must look like the right diagnosis of the human condition.

I didn’t reply to your last response because it would have been a knee jerk and not a considered point.

Picture a plane full of passengers running into difficulties over the Pacific. There is no alternative, after a bumpy emergency sea landing than to abandon the sinking aircraft and, complete with life-jacket, tread water and decide what to do next.

Valley of decision time, the strong ones try to swim for land, the naive imagine their life jackets will keep them afloat indefinitely. The weak and the wise know they have a serious problem.

A vessel displaying the flag of an enemy nation appears, first on the horizon, then closer. When it reaches the floating survivors, a rope is thrown down and those who are willing to trust these strangers are pulled up on board.

Some stay in the water.

One man believes (and tells all who care to listen) that they will be sold as slaves, or worse, and that it is more dignified to wait for better rescuers.

Another rejects rescue on the grounds that fear of drowning can never be a good motivator for accepting the charity of a nation so much news print has condemned.

Several more come to the view that the ship itself shot down the plane and those on board are taking a sick pleasure in toying with their victims.

Eventually, the sun sinks over the horizon, the ship departs and the little group who would have nothing to do with the ship die, holding firmly to their views to the end. The strong swimmers last a bit longer, but all the strength in the world will not get them the thousand miles to the nearest land.

As mentioned previously, “valley of decision”

You can accept or reject the idea that you are a sinner (and therefore in deep water).

You can accept or reject the idea that God is holy (and therefore, land is unreachably far off).

You can accept or reject the idea that you need a saviour (and that it would take a boat to rescue you).

Finally, you MUST consider seriously if you trust the boat that has been provided, or wish to try something yourself. Your position in the water is a temporary one, whichever you choose.
 
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The Agrarian

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In the spiritual path I follow there is a great deal of veneration for the female element, which is totally ignored or at best reduced to a secondary importance within the Abrahamic thing. Hence my liking for this version of the story, which subverts the patriachal, fanatic and fearful energy of the "orthodox doctrines"
1.) If you really follow Eastern traditions (and not the appropriated Hippie tropes of Hinduism) than supporting gnosticism would be highly illogical due to the intense dualistic nature of Greco-Persian gnostic teachings. Dharmic religions are monistic/pan-theistic.

2.) The Eastern traditions you claim to follow are just as "patriarchal" if not more so given the history of widow-burning and r*pe culture within India. I'm assuming your gravitation towards those traditions is more drawn from a socio-political frustration than some ancient philosophy passed down through millenia, not so different from tween Wicca.
 

Alanantic

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“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
Paul of Tarsus
I never cared for Paul of Tarsus. He tried to make a man into a god.

"Don't get attached to what I say, don't get attached to any doctrine, to what I preach; don't get attached to my personality. These are all just fingers pointing to the moon. Forget me, don't start worshiping me; just look at the moon. And once you have looked at the moon, I don't matter at all." -- Buddha
 

Maldarker

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I never cared for Paul of Tarsus. He tried to make a man into a god.

"Don't get attached to what I say, don't get attached to any doctrine, to what I preach; don't get attached to my personality. These are all just fingers pointing to the moon. Forget me, don't start worshiping me; just look at the moon. And once you have looked at the moon, I don't matter at all." -- Buddha
Well the CHRIST as a concept of GOD is a better one then most god beings that we hear about isn't it.
 
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