The Real Hero and Heroine of the Garden of Eden Story

Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Yeah, I don't agree with Marx's view of human nature. Clearly our nature is partly determined by the society around us, but not entirely, not to the extent that he believed. Still there could be possibilities for a better society, workers owning the means of production, if we could start to build it, make efforts in that direction. I'm skeptical that it's actually possible to overcome the entrenched interests which keep the capitalist system alive, revolution is not the answer. But trying to live in community, co-operate rather than compete, build non-hierachical structures, this is a useful project. Actually it's generally anarchists rather than socialists who attempt this.

Accepting capitalism just because we don't like communism is (again) the product of a false dichotomy.
I will agree on your last sentence. So question is do you think people are inherently good or bad by nature? Good example that sticks out is this....child (age 3) takes caramel roll off counter parent see this child hides the roll jumps off chair runs to parent. Parent ask did you eat a caramel roll? Child says NO! I didn't! to the parent no hesitation on the childs part with the evidence smeared on the childs face. At age 3 a child will lie... not influenced by society at that point i would say, but yet hmm a lie from a little 3 yr old. So good or bad are people in essence i would say bad.
 






Aero

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
5,934
Marx's said that socialism is just the in between before communism. Karx quote "socialist models are utterly unrealistic “utopian” dreams."

Never looked into fatalism
Gotcha.

All you need to know about fatalism is that it leads to an attitude of resignation. Like why make decisions, take different paths, or try to change anything if everything can be explained by destiny. In that sense, fatalism is the bane of a self-improvement guru's whole life.
 






shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
I will agree on your last sentence. So question is do you think people are inherently good or bad by nature? Good example that sticks out is this....child (age 3) takes caramel roll off counter parent see this child hides the roll jumps off chair runs to parent. Parent ask did you eat a caramel roll? Child says NO! I didn't! to the parent no hesitation on the childs part with the evidence smeared on the childs face. At age 3 a child will lie... not influenced by society at that point i would say, but yet hmm a lie from a little 3 yr old. So good or bad are people in essence i would say bad.
Funny, both this thread and the "Brand Names" one I made we ended up talking about socialism. Shall we move the discussion there where it's more relevant? Here it is: Brand Names And Sweatshops
 






Sunshine

Established
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Messages
245
Your worldview is completely dualistic. You seem to believe that there is actually some entity which is an "anti-God" attempting to steal humanity's soul. There may be humans like this, people who are very lost and want to drag others into their chaos. But the Serpent must be understood as a divine potency, the creator of the dialectic of temptation which allows those who wish to the possibility to triumph over it. Or not. We are also quite free to wander in Samsara, if we are attracted to Samsaric pleasures.

If there were no so-called "fall from grace", none of this would be. Everything would be a kind of unmanifest elemental innocence, our souls would have consciousness like that of a plant, innocence without experience. Only innocence with experience is true innocence, and that's why we have to go through all of this.

It seems rather purposeless that Deity would permit some being to try to steal the souls of all humanity, condemning them to "eternal damnation" for no purpose other to save those who chauvinistically recite some particular creed.
Wow, I never thought I would read an essay defending the serpent of Eden. Lol.

You seem to be under the impression that Eden is a metaphor for non-corporeal existence, and that The Fall was some sort of necessary and inevitable adventure into the physical world, without which, we humans would have no purpose. What if I were to tell you, that Eden DOES exist. It existed then, and does now, and is simply a higher vibrational plane. If you look at the kabbalah map, it is the 7th sephirot called Netzach (Victory), and when humans were first created, they resided there. They were familiar with only positive energy, bc that's all they came into contact with. When they learned about Evil, that negative energy was ingested, became a part of them, and it brought down their overall vibrational energy, and they couldn't stay in Netzach. When the humans fell down/out, they landed here, in Tifareth (Beauty/Balance). All of the matter here, including our bodies, is denser, heavier, and the physical sensations, such as pain (and maybe even pleasure?) are more intense.

That is what Samsara means, and when the sages discuss dukkha and cessation of suffering; the whole point of yogic and Buddhist meditation (and even some forms of prayer, if you think about it) is to reestablish that connection with the 7th plane, to shrug off the heaviness of this dimension, if only for a fleeting moment. That is what they mean when they describe a master as having Ascended: that he can mentally exist in that plane and this one at the same time, for more than a few seconds, at least.

The concept of Heaven is embodied in this 7th plane, (and the 4th, even higher level, but that's another discussion.) When we die, some of us get to go there, but only if we deserve it. If we are blessed enough to have loved ones who watch over us after they pass away, that's where they do it from. They and other higher entities (like angels and stuff) work together there, to send positive energy here, to keep our dimension in balance, as a counter-weight against all the evil sh*t that pours in from the Other Side. (5th sephirot, Gevurah or Severity (Hell) and , to a lesser extent, Hod, the 8th sephirot. (It translates to Splendor, and is where energy shifts densities/forms-- it is where the magicians pull power from) That CERN doorway they ripped open between dimensions? Yeah, that's where it leads--straight into the hell next door.

So no, the Adam & Eve story is not just a story. There is an essence of truth to it so grand and complex that we humans will never truly comprehend it, and so it was passed down in simplified language and with simplified imagery so people would remember just enough of their inheritance to reach for it again. Twisting the story to make the bad guy seem good and the Lord of All Creation seem like an enemy of the humans He created with love makes no sense, either terms of this particular story, or just in general.

We all know who loves doing that--twisting what's real, what's true, to fit an opposing narrative. You better choose, if you want to work for him, or work for Him.
 






shankara

Star
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,341
Wow, I never thought I would read an essay defending the serpent of Eden. Lol.

You seem to be under the impression that Eden is a metaphor for non-corporeal existence, and that The Fall was some sort of necessary and inevitable adventure into the physical world, without which, we humans would have no purpose. What if I were to tell you, that Eden DOES exist. It existed then, and does now, and is simply a higher vibrational plane. If you look at the kabbalah map, it is the 7th sephirot called Netzach (Victory), and when humans were first created, they resided there. They were familiar with only positive energy, bc that's all they came into contact with. When they learned about Evil, that negative energy was ingested, became a part of them, and it brought down their overall vibrational energy, and they couldn't stay in Netzach. When the humans fell down/out, they landed here, in Tifareth (Beauty/Balance). All of the matter here, including our bodies, is denser, heavier, and the physical sensations, such as pain (and maybe even pleasure?) are more intense.

That is what Samsara means, and when the sages discuss dukkha and cessation of suffering; the whole point of yogic and Buddhist meditation (and even some forms of prayer, if you think about it) is to reestablish that connection with the 7th plane, to shrug off the heaviness of this dimension, if only for a fleeting moment. That is what they mean when they describe a master as having Ascended: that he can mentally exist in that plane and this one at the same time, for more than a few seconds, at least.

The concept of Heaven is embodied in this 7th plane, (and the 4th, even higher level, but that's another discussion.) When we die, some of us get to go there, but only if we deserve it. If we are blessed enough to have loved ones who watch over us after they pass away, that's where they do it from. They and other higher entities (like angels and stuff) work together there, to send positive energy here, to keep our dimension in balance, as a counter-weight against all the evil sh*t that pours in from the Other Side. (5th sephirot, Gevurah or Severity (Hell) and , to a lesser extent, Hod, the 8th sephirot. (It translates to Splendor, and is where energy shifts densities/forms-- it is where the magicians pull power from) That CERN doorway they ripped open between dimensions? Yeah, that's where it leads--straight into the hell next door.

So no, the Adam & Eve story is not just a story. There is an essence of truth to it so grand and complex that we humans will never truly comprehend it, and so it was passed down in simplified language and with simplified imagery so people would remember just enough of their inheritance to reach for it again. Twisting the story to make the bad guy seem good and the Lord of All Creation seem like an enemy of the humans He created with love makes no sense, either terms of this particular story, or just in general.

We all know who loves doing that--twisting what's real, what's true, to fit an opposing narrative. You better choose, if you want to work for him, or work for Him.
I found this a very interesting read. I think that the story has a few layers of meaning, and a number of possible valid interpretations. I'm not so into all the Kabbalistic stuff these days, so I can't really comment on this side of what you're saying. But thankyou for not just posting the same old Protestant stuff.
 






Maldarker

Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
564
Gotcha.

All you need to know about fatalism is that it leads to an attitude of resignation. Like why make decisions, take different paths, or try to change anything if everything can be explained by destiny. In that sense, fatalism is the bane of a self-improvement guru's whole life.
Well said LOL!
 






Alanantic

Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Messages
687
You better choose, if you want to work for him, or work for Him.
In the East they'd say something like, work as self or Self. (In other words, the immortal soul or it's avatar, the mortal ego.) Shankara, feel free to correct me...
 






Top