The Rapture

[TokiEl]

I have come to a "Dispensational" view of scripture, and that wider lens leads me to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and to take a "Premillennial" position, meaning that I believe there will be a future millennial kingdom.

John 16 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you [a]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”


It can't be a pre trib rapture.L0L

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

John 16 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you [a]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”


It can't be a pre trib rapture.L0L

Tribulation means trouble, and we all have it!

Do you see no destination between "The Great Tribulation" and the kind of tribulation believers have faced for centuries?

Out of interest, are there any teachings that have led you to your stance against a rapture?

 

[TokiEl]

Tribulation means trouble, and we all have it!

Do you see no destination between "The Great Tribulation" and the kind of tribulation believers have faced for centuries?

Out of interest, are there any teachings that have led you to your stance against a rapture?

Will it be a pre great trib rapture ?

Well those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are persecuted in Rev 12 during the great trib and in Rev 20 some of those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands are seen beheaded.

This doesn't sound like a pre great trib rapture. Besides in 1 Cor 15:52 it is at the last trump the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed. At the last trump.

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Still figuring that one out, but I lean more post-tribulation and here's why.

Thousands, perhaps millions, of people in many nations (not America) are being persecuted and killed for their faith in Jesus. Where's their rapture? I think persecution is coming to America and we're not prepared for it because we've only experienced anything from mild social embarrassment to possible slander. We've never been killed except maybe in a few instances, such as the girl who said she believed in Jesus at Columbine High School and was shot for saying such. The underground church is thriving in China, Russia, and other nations. We have stadium Christianity here in America and a lukewarm, almost dead church on the whole. Faith seems to thrive in persecution unfortunately.

Sorry to be so intense. I just can't buy that we're not going to go through potentially grievous, gut wrenching pain. Tribulation.

Not too intense. The rapture is intense in general. I like your take on a post trib rapture. Very possible. Do you have any scriptures to back that up?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

I believe in the Rapture and I am Pre-Trib. I have studied this quite a bit but I am interested to hear the perspectives of others.

I believe in pre trib as well. I am not studied in it as you are, but I do believe it will be pre trib. Do most christians you come across agree with you?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Rapture or decapitation is exactly the same for me. L0L

Hmm i don't get it. I am slow, tell me more.

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Jesus comes back 1 time, visibly, and the World as we know it ends and is burnt up at that time. There is no thousand years of Jesus ruling this planet, once He comes back we go into Judgement and then the New Heaven and New Earth. That is the concept that the Church has held to for thousands of years...

Matt 26:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He leaves as He comes, which is visibly and all eyes shall see Him, there is no Secret Rapture. He comes one time period.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When He comes He pours out His Wrath, there is no 3-5-7 years between His coming and His Wrath, He comes, people see Him and run because they know the Wrath is coming.

His Wrath consists of this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Just as Rev states, when Jesus comes the heavens depart, and as Peter says they will pass away and Peter tells us exactly how they will pass away, in fervent heat. This is what happens when Christ comes back, this leave zero room for a Secret Rapture or some span of 3-5-7 years or all the other things people want to shove into Scriptures concerning the End Times. Nor does it leave room for some 1000 yrs of Jesus on the Earth, because again the Earth is burnt up in fervent heat.

And what does Peter say concerning what too look for after the Day of Lord? Is it some Rapture, is it people left behind, is it 1000 yrs of Jesus on this Earth?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter doesnt say look for a 1000 yr reign of Christ on Earth when He comes back, no instead he says the Earth melts and we need to look forward to the New Heaven and New Earth. There isnt going to be a Secret Rapture, a 7 yr Tribulation or a 1000 yr reign of Christ on Earth. Instead you will have Jesus come back once physically where every eye can see, He will gather together the believers and then pour out His Wrath which culminates in Him melting the elements. Then we have the Judgement and then finally the New Heaven and New Earth...

WOW. Thank you for using scriptural support for your ideas. Do you believe that believers of Christ will face judgement since God had thrown our sins as far as the east is from the west?

Also i find it interesting that you don't believe in any rapture at all. I have never heard that idea before. SO things will crumble apart and Jesus will come and have war with the devil. Or do you believe in Armagedeon at all?

Do you believe that people will have to take the mark of the beast?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

According to the Bible there is going to be tribulation in all the world and every one alive will be on earth during the tribulation. They will face it differently depending on whose side they are on.

Matthew 24:21- 22: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

In Revelation18:4 God calls His people out of Babylon so they don't face the plagues that will soon be poured out. "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." The Bible never suggests that God will rapture His people out of the world just before the time of trouble/tribulation. When we read about the plagues falling on Babylon, they don't fall on God's people but they are still in this world.

When we read Jesus' prophecy about the tribulation from the above scripture of Matthew 24:21-22, in verse 22 He says, "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

Revelation 7:14: "And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The Bible describes the 144,000 as "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

And when Jesus returns for His people we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." When Jesus returns the righteous who are alive will meet the Lord in the air too as those who will have been raised from the dead. That is one clear indication they will be right here on earth.

God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Christ prayed to His Father for His disciples, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one]." John 17:15. Likewise, in 2 Timothy 3:12 Paul states, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22.

Although God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13.


The Bible tells us what happens after all the righteous get to heaven.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

1 Corinthians 6:2: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

The righteous are pictured judging in heaven.

At the end of the 1,000 year period, when the righteous have reigned and finished conducting the judgement with Christ, Christ and the righteous will return to this earth in the holy city.

Revelation 21:2-3: Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

I have omitted what happens to the wicked and Satan.

So you believe that living believers of Christ will have to go through the tribulation? Thank you for taking the time to use scriptural proof of you r beliefs. I find this fascinating

 

[Moreaboutyou]

One thing that comes out from a discussion like this is the diversity of views held on the subject of the timing of the coming of the Lord. "Covenant Theology" leads to one perspective, "Dominion Theology" to another, "Dispensationalism" to another again. Many people are unaware how these frameworks inform interpretations of end time events pertaining to the church, Israel and the wider world. A thread like this cannot possibly become an area of meaningful debate on the subject as almost everyone here has prior doctrinal beliefs on which our understanding of eschatology hangs.

The one thing I remember from doing maths at school was the importance of showing your working out. With this, even if you were to arrive at a unique answer, your train of logic could be followed. What might be an interesting extra element to the discussion is to consider how our general theology informs our views of the timing (or even existance) of the Rapture.

I have come to a "Dispensational" view of scripture, and that wider lens leads me to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and to take a "Premillennial" position, meaning that I believe there will be a future millennial kingdom. The notion of "the Coming Kingdom" is explored by many authors but the one I'm enjoying most at present on the subject is Andy Woods. This video is the first in a series...

Yes I believe it is very important to have scriptural proof if you are expressing your views. Robert Breaker on youtube is awesome and breaks down the rapture very well in my opinion

 

[Moreaboutyou]

*None of the above
I love this kind of discussion, it’s real! Nice question!

The whole idea of rapture is ridiculous.
There is not one iota of evidence in the Bible that any random “Christians,” will be saved from the tribulation.
Where the heck did this fantasy even come from? A pulpit pounding preacher perhaps?
In my earlier years I was even offended by this idea.
The idea of this is so absurd.

Now it just feels sad to me, and Jeshuah gives clear evidence of it making no sense! If you truly understand the meaning of revelations.

The 144,000 that will never taste death will be so in tune with Jeshuah, that their spirits will be white as snow. They will be following His laws perfectly.

How much time have YOU spent trading Easter for Passover?
Not a phony Jewish Passover where you put your food and utensils into STORAGE! Yikes that offends me!
“The Father SAYS throw it AWAY!”
I am an Israelite, and I feel no sympathy for 1/12 of my people.
My words are forever recorded with each letter I type, so I prefer to explain my thoughts as well as possible.

Although some of us may be on the right track, there is not one single person here in this forum, so far, that is perfectly following Christ good enough to qualify for this 144,000.
If you go to church on Sunday, and eat ham or crab....
If you sometimes curse goddamit, or are jealous of your neighbors wife/husband/car...
If you think Easter and Christmas are ok, or you call any priest as father, or worship Mary or Muhammad....go ahead and count yourself out.
Amen

Very interesting indeed. Do you believe in end times (mark of the beast, Armagedeon etc)?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Post trib or maybe none...

What makes you say that?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes I believe it is very important to have scriptural proof if you are expressing your views. Robert Breaker on youtube is awesome and breaks down the rapture very well in my opinion

A good playlist from Robert...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdPac5SY1R8F3pdz8rLZDBubcAMrRAhRc

 

[Moreaboutyou]

I have gone back and forth between Pre-tribulation and post tribulation. I have set my mind on Pre tribulation rapture at the present moment. Mostly because in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it states that Christians are not ''appointed to wrath.'' But this could also support a pre wrath view if I chose to go in that direction.

Yes, that is an interesting point. On that same token do you think that believers in Christ will face judgement in the end?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Revelation 7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Revelation 14 Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no [d]deceit, for they are without fault [e]before the throne of God.


Are you a virgin ?

Or have you defiled yourself with women ?L0L

God got standards... and it's much higher than man.

Did you dip your private into the honey box ?

Oups one strike and you're out.

No i'm just joking. I don't know.

So are you saying that sinners are going to hell or that sinners cannot be taken in the rapture?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

Nope. Not at all. I was brought up to think the rapture is correct, but the more I read the Bible, the less I can see it supported in any way. The same way mankind did not 'fall' physically but spiritually, I see that we will 'rise' spiritually not physically. I have tried very hard to believe it, but nope. The alternative is so much more within biblical principles - the manifestation of the sons of God.

So do you believe in end times at all?

 

[Moreaboutyou]

No, it isn't. God doesn't ever take back our salvation once we have accepted it.

So if it is conditional to obedience aren't we all doomed to hell? Even a through can be considered a sin. Conditional love and acceptance does not sound like the love of God, but the love of man

 

[Dalit]

Not too intense. The rapture is intense in general. I like your take on a post trib rapture. Very possible. Do you have any scriptures to back that up?

See the Scriptures @Daciple used, but I can look for more. I agree with his take on it.

Honestly, I want to be wrong on this, but I think there's more proof confirming what Daciple states than not. Certainly don't want to come to blows with anyone on this since I respect everyone here. The idea that there was a post-trib or no trib was introduced to me in grad school and I told the guy who said it that he was a liberal. Lol. How could that be liberal? He was patient and explained his side and I didn't get it then, but understand it more now.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

See the Scriptures @Daciple used, but I can look for more. I agree with his take on it.

Honestly, I want to be wrong on this, but I think there's more proof confirming what Daciple states than not. Certainly don't want to come to blows with anyone on this since I respect everyone here. The idea that there was a post-trib or no trib was introduced to me in grad school and I told the guy who said it that he was a liberal. Lol. How could that be liberal? He was patient and explained his side and I didn't get it then, but understand it more now.

I think one thing that informs a perspective on this is how you perceive God will deal with the Church and with Israel in his unfolding plan. Who Jesus is referring to in his statements, what is the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and to whom will this be preached, how the mystery of the Church fits into this picture and so on. Certainly more of an in-depth study than we have attempted on this forum, even among Christians in my time here.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It occurs to me that Satan might well give the possibility of the Rapture some credence. Why would the "spiritual cover story" of alien encounters and particularly abductions have started in earnest since Roswell (and the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland).

Perhaps the notion of the "generation that will not pass away" tipped Satan's hand to show his intentions for the Great Deception. Anyway, I know I am not alone in having noticed...

 

[Camidria]

I am definitely post-trib, I haven't looked at the scriptures or spent a lot of time on it though. The reason for my beliefs is because or the dreams that my husband has had about the tribulation, and we were in it. I also know in my heart that I am saved and my relationship with Jesus is good, He is making me more and more like Him through relationship (because NONE of us are perfect and we are all in need of a savior). In a sense if there is a rapture pre-trib, will I not be taken because I havn't lived close enough to Jesus? What about the promises of my children that God had given me, prophetic words, beautiful imagery for me personally etc. But who knows, maybe it still 20 years away? I don't know, it certainly looks as if we are on the doorstep of the end-times coming into full fruition!