The Rapture

Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
85
Likes
92
#1
Do you believe in the rapture?
*Pre Tribulation?
*Mid Tribulation?
*Post Tribulation?
*None of the above?

Do tell..
 





Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
783
Likes
1,309
#2
Do you believe in the rapture?
*Pre Tribulation?
*Mid Tribulation?
*Post Tribulation?
*None of the above?

Do tell..
Still figuring that one out, but I lean more post-tribulation and here's why.

Thousands, perhaps millions, of people in many nations (not America) are being persecuted and killed for their faith in Jesus. Where's their rapture? I think persecution is coming to America and we're not prepared for it because we've only experienced anything from mild social embarrassment to possible slander. We've never been killed except maybe in a few instances, such as the girl who said she believed in Jesus at Columbine High School and was shot for saying such. The underground church is thriving in China, Russia, and other nations. We have stadium Christianity here in America and a lukewarm, almost dead church on the whole. Faith seems to thrive in persecution unfortunately.

Sorry to be so intense. I just can't buy that we're not going to go through potentially grievous, gut wrenching pain. Tribulation.
 





Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
996
Likes
1,989
#5
Jesus comes back 1 time, visibly, and the World as we know it ends and is burnt up at that time. There is no thousand years of Jesus ruling this planet, once He comes back we go into Judgement and then the New Heaven and New Earth. That is the concept that the Church has held to for thousands of years...

Matt 26:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He leaves as He comes, which is visibly and all eyes shall see Him, there is no Secret Rapture. He comes one time period.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
.

When He comes He pours out His Wrath, there is no 3-5-7 years between His coming and His Wrath, He comes, people see Him and run because they know the Wrath is coming.

His Wrath consists of this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Just as Rev states, when Jesus comes the heavens depart, and as Peter says they will pass away and Peter tells us exactly how they will pass away, in fervent heat. This is what happens when Christ comes back, this leave zero room for a Secret Rapture or some span of 3-5-7 years or all the other things people want to shove into Scriptures concerning the End Times. Nor does it leave room for some 1000 yrs of Jesus on the Earth, because again the Earth is burnt up in fervent heat.

And what does Peter say concerning what too look for after the Day of Lord? Is it some Rapture, is it people left behind, is it 1000 yrs of Jesus on this Earth?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter doesnt say look for a 1000 yr reign of Christ on Earth when He comes back, no instead he says the Earth melts and we need to look forward to the New Heaven and New Earth. There isnt going to be a Secret Rapture, a 7 yr Tribulation or a 1000 yr reign of Christ on Earth. Instead you will have Jesus come back once physically where every eye can see, He will gather together the believers and then pour out His Wrath which culminates in Him melting the elements. Then we have the Judgement and then finally the New Heaven and New Earth...
 





Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
843
Likes
757
#6
According to the Bible there is going to be tribulation in all the world and every one alive will be on earth during the tribulation. They will face it differently depending on whose side they are on.

Matthew 24:21- 22: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

In Revelation18:4 God calls His people out of Babylon so they don't face the plagues that will soon be poured out. "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." The Bible never suggests that God will rapture His people out of the world just before the time of trouble/tribulation. When we read about the plagues falling on Babylon, they don't fall on God's people but they are still in this world.

When we read Jesus' prophecy about the tribulation from the above scripture of Matthew 24:21-22, in verse 22 He says, "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

Revelation 7:14: "And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The Bible describes the 144,000 as "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

And when Jesus returns for His people we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." When Jesus returns the righteous who are alive will meet the Lord in the air too as those who will have been raised from the dead. That is one clear indication they will be right here on earth.

God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Christ prayed to His Father for His disciples, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one]." John 17:15. Likewise, in 2 Timothy 3:12 Paul states, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22.

Although God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13.


The Bible tells us what happens after all the righteous get to heaven.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

1 Corinthians 6:2: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

The righteous are pictured judging in heaven.

At the end of the 1,000 year period, when the righteous have reigned and finished conducting the judgement with Christ, Christ and the righteous will return to this earth in the holy city.

Revelation 21:2-3: Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

I have omitted what happens to the wicked and Satan.
 





Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
67
Likes
52
#7
Do you believe in the rapture?
*Pre Tribulation?
*Mid Tribulation?
*Post Tribulation?
*None of the above?

Do tell..
*None of the above
I love this kind of discussion, it’s real! Nice question!

The whole idea of rapture is ridiculous.
There is not one iota of evidence in the Bible that any random “Christians,” will be saved from the tribulation.
Where the heck did this fantasy even come from? A pulpit pounding preacher perhaps?
In my earlier years I was even offended by this idea.
The idea of this is so absurd.

Now it just feels sad to me, and Jeshuah gives clear evidence of it making no sense! If you truly understand the meaning of revelations.

The 144,000 that will never taste death will be so in tune with Jeshuah, that their spirits will be white as snow. They will be following His laws perfectly.

How much time have YOU spent trading Easter for Passover?
Not a phony Jewish Passover where you put your food and utensils into STORAGE! Yikes that offends me!
“The Father SAYS throw it AWAY!”
I am an Israelite, and I feel no sympathy for 1/12 of my people.
My words are forever recorded with each letter I type, so I prefer to explain my thoughts as well as possible.

Although some of us may be on the right track, there is not one single person here in this forum, so far, that is perfectly following Christ good enough to qualify for this 144,000.
If you go to church on Sunday, and eat ham or crab....
If you sometimes curse goddamit, or are jealous of your neighbors wife/husband/car...
If you think Easter and Christmas are ok, or you call any priest as father, or worship Mary or Muhammad....go ahead and count yourself out.
Amen
 





Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
27
Likes
113
#10
I have gone back and forth between Pre-tribulation and post tribulation. I have set my mind on Pre tribulation rapture at the present moment. Mostly because in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it states that Christians are not ''appointed to wrath.'' But this could also support a pre wrath view if I chose to go in that direction.
 





llleopard

Established
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
364
Likes
909
#11
Nope. Not at all. I was brought up to think the rapture is correct, but the more I read the Bible, the less I can see it supported in any way. The same way mankind did not 'fall' physically but spiritually, I see that we will 'rise' spiritually not physically. I have tried very hard to believe it, but nope. The alternative is so much more within biblical principles - the manifestation of the sons of God.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
6,668
Likes
10,027
#12
Btw, as others have included their reasons for taking a particular position on the timing of the Rapture, with verses that support it, I thought I would briefly give mine.

There are a number of reasons theologically why I believe the Rapture will take place before the Great Tribulation. For those who want to find out why, there is a good resource at https://www.pre-trib.org

One reason I found particularly compelling was set out in part 1 and part 2 of an older presentation I came across concerning an event in heaven described in Revelation with 24 elders.

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

"9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." KJV

One word shifts the meaning greatly - "us" (Textus Receptus, 23 surviving manuscripts of this verse) or "them" (Alexandrian, 1 manuscript example of this verse).
 





Last edited:
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
3,175
Likes
1,247
#13
Mostly because in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it states that Christians are not ''appointed to wrath.''
Revelation 7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Revelation 14 Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no [d]deceit, for they are without fault [e]before the throne of God.


Are you a virgin ?

Or have you defiled yourself with women ?L0L

God got standards... and it's much higher than man.

Did you dip your private into the honey box ?

Oups one strike and you're out.

No i'm just joking. I don't know.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
843
Likes
757
#16
Will there be a Secret Rapture?

In stark contrast to this section of articles is the doctrine of the secret rapture. This doctrine is a dispensational view, proposing that the people of God will be secretly taken to heaven while everyone else remains on the earth to receive a second chance. The secret rapture doctrine is false, and gives a false hope. It does not encourage people to change their lives and make themselves right with God.

This is what Scripture has to say about getting right with God:

"Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isaiah 55:7).

“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 18:21-23).

There is a clear "if" in these verses. Salvation is conditional to obedience. When the judgment comes, we will be held accountable for our deeds, and won’t have another chance.

The people of God will experience the tribulation and feel the wrath of the Antichrist. Their only hope will be the return of Christ. Just as the blood of the lamb was to be painted on the doorposts of the Israelite dwellings during the night of the final plague in Egypt (Exodus 12:7-13), so the blood of Christ the Lamb must be painted on the doorpost of the heart to alert the destroying angel that we have been purchased by God’s sacrifice.

"And it will be said in that day: “Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation" (Isaiah 25:9).

The Secret Rapture and the Word of God

The following passage is often quoted to support the secret rapture:

"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming" (Matthew 24:38-42).

This text does not prove a secret rapture. It merely points out that at the return of Christ, some will be saved and others will be lost.

The dispensationalist view that the Antichrist will arise after the secret rapture is also not in line with the teaching of Scripture. The Bible clearly teaches that this power will arise from the Church, not after the Church:

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:18-19).

The secret rapture is not a Biblical teaching.


Post-Rapture Tribulation

Dispensationalism is the background for the blockbuster Left Behind series. It proposes that the rapture of the Church will occur at the secret coming of Christ, before the Antichrist rules the earth for a seven-year tribulation period.

The Ryrie Study Bible says that the seven-year tribulation period "is the 70th week of Daniel and is therefore of seven-years’ duration" (Daniel 9:27). Charles Caldwell Ryrie, “III. The Tribulation,” Ryrie Study Bible King James Version Expanded Edition (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994): 1982.

This statement illogically separates the 70th week from the preceding 69 weeks. The seven years are placed over 2000 years into the future, to the time of Antichrist. A prophecy referring to Christ is twisted to refer to the Antichrist instead.

By stating that the Antichrist is an individual, dispensationalism ignores the Bible. The Antichrist is more than an individual. 1 John 2:18 says, “even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” These “antichrists” came out of the Church as apostate believers. Eventually, this Antichrist power found a home in a geo-political religious system, the papal system. It has harassed the Church for centuries, and is still a threat to believers in our time.

amazingdiscoveries.org
 





Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
3,175
Likes
1,247
#18
The Ryrie Study Bible says that the seven-year tribulation period "is the 70th week of Daniel and is therefore of seven-years’ duration" (Daniel 9:27). Charles Caldwell Ryrie, “III. The Tribulation,” Ryrie Study Bible King James Version Expanded Edition (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994): 1982.

This statement illogically separates the 70th week from the preceding 69 weeks. The seven years are placed over 2000 years into the future, to the time of Antichrist. A prophecy referring to Christ is twisted to refer to the Antichrist instead.
The prince who is to come in Daniel 9:26 is the same as he in Daniel 9:27.

Is he the Antichrist ? He certainly is the Vicar of Christ !

Popes are of course antichrists... but this particular pope confirmed a covenant with many right on God's prophetic time.
 





Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
843
Likes
757
#19
No, it isn't. God doesn't ever take back our salvation once we have accepted it.
The Bible which is the word of God disagrees and so do I since I go with what the Bible says.

Instead of putting up so much scripture about doing God's will and people doing God's will, I will put up scripture warning us against apostasy.

" “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night" (1 Samuel 15:11).

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12).

"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked" (2 Peter 3:17).

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1).

The Just Live by Faith
"
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:26-31).

So its not biblical that once saved always saved. Its one of Satans traps to make many Christians relax and do what they want thinking since they gave their lives to Christ once they are secure and saved no matter what. That is why many Christians are going to be surprised about not making it into heaven.

" “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ " (Matthew 7:21-23) These people are Christians but will not go to heaven because they did not do the will of God. They did their own thing and thought that was enough to save them.

We have to live saved lives not just profess to being saved. We have to be faithful and obedient to God's Word. If we don't and think because we made a decision to be saved one day in our lives will mean we have continued salvation whether we are faithful and obedient or not, then you have really misunderstood God. Our example is Jesus and how He lived His life here on earth. He always prayed to His Father in heaven, did His will, He always stayed focussed on His relationship with God. He never once let go. We should strive to be like that in our lives.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
6,668
Likes
10,027
#20
One thing that comes out from a discussion like this is the diversity of views held on the subject of the timing of the coming of the Lord. "Covenant Theology" leads to one perspective, "Dominion Theology" to another, "Dispensationalism" to another again. Many people are unaware how these frameworks inform interpretations of end time events pertaining to the church, Israel and the wider world. A thread like this cannot possibly become an area of meaningful debate on the subject as almost everyone here has prior doctrinal beliefs on which our understanding of eschatology hangs.

The one thing I remember from doing maths at school was the importance of showing your working out. With this, even if you were to arrive at a unique answer, your train of logic could be followed. What might be an interesting extra element to the discussion is to consider how our general theology informs our views of the timing (or even existance) of the Rapture.

I have come to a "Dispensational" view of scripture, and that wider lens leads me to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and to take a "Premillennial" position, meaning that I believe there will be a future millennial kingdom. The notion of "the Coming Kingdom" is explored by many authors but the one I'm enjoying most at present on the subject is Andy Woods. This video is the first in a series...

 





Last edited: