The purpose of life in Christianity

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The thing with Thomas was...

He was a doubter but history records the fact that he did not stay a doubter. Here we see his turning point.

After this, his life appears to have taken a dramatic turn:-

“St. Thomas the apostle also known as Didymus arrived in the shores of Kerala, India in 52 AD, preaching the good news to the Malabaris and he established 7 and 1/2 churches in Kerala. Saint Thomas Christians (also known as Syrian Christians or Nasrani) include Syro-Malabar Catholic, Syro-Malankara Catholic, Malankara Orthodox, Jacobite, Marthoma and Church of South India.

He organized Christian communities, in several places and established seven churches in Kerala and then at last got martyrdom in Mylapore, Chennai, in 72 A.D.“

Agreed, but I'm still not basing my doctrine on his knee jerk reaction at his turning point from doubt to belief. LOL!
 





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Agreed, but I'm still not basing my doctrine on his knee jerk reaction at his turing point from doubt to belief. LOL!
Lol indeed - I won’t try to argue over Thomas with you. To a wider point, have you ever done a study in the characteristics of God? Did you note that the Bible applies these characteristics to Father, Son and Holy Spirit... for me there was no more complete evidence of the Trinity than this.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn37D9Z7GhvrnTmLz8b4H8MFXCLgKWbGp
 





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Lol indeed - I won’t try to argue over Thomas with you. To a wider point, have you ever done a study in the characteristics of God? Did you note that the Bible applies these characteristics to Father, Son and Holy Spirit... for me there was no more complete evidence of the Trinity than this.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn37D9Z7GhvrnTmLz8b4H8MFXCLgKWbGp
Not able to watch videos at the moment. What are the characteristics you are refering to?

Jesus was fully indwelled by the Spirit of God, so it makes sense that the characterisitics of God would be evidenced in him.
The Holy Spirit is simply God's manifestation, not a seperate person, so of course the Holy Spirit has the same characterisics as God because the Holy Spirit is God.
 





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Not able to watch videos at the moment. What are the characteristics you are refering to?

Jesus was fully indwelled by the Spirit of God, so it makes sense that the characterisitics of God would be evidenced in him.
The Holy Spirit is simply God's manifestation, not a seperate person, so of course the Holy Spirit has the same characterisics as God because the Holy Spirit is God.
When you have more time you might be interested Todd. Here Roger Price takes each of the main characteristics of God, and concludes each talk by demonstrating clearly how the Bible talks about those attributes with respect to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Well worth the study!
 





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When you have more time you might be interested Todd. Here Roger Price takes each of the main characteristics of God, and concludes each talk by demonstrating clearly how the Bible talks about those attributes with respect to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Well worth the study!
It might be a great study but Jesus being indwelled by the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit being the manfiestation of God himself, is just as reasonable explanation of this, as the Trinity doctrine (if not more). It might imply the Trinity, but it doesn't unequivocally prove the Trintiy doctrine is true.
 





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I'm interested to see what you have to say about this on this forum, also, how is Christianity not Nihilistic?
The purpose of the Law of God was to Condemn Nihilism, Because before the Law, there was no conviction of sin. For it grieved God that He made man, for every thought of men's heart was evil. So without the Law there was no condemnation. (Rom. 5:12-21). Hitler, Mao, Attila were all Nihilist.
 





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It might be a great study but Jesus being indwelled by the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit being the manfiestation of God himself, is just as reasonable explanation of this, as the Trinity doctrine (if not more). It might imply the Trinity, but it doesn't unequivocally prove the Trintiy doctrine is true.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth @Todd but do you believe in “Adoptionism”?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism
 





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I don’t want to put words in your mouth @Todd but do you believe in “Adoptionism”?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism
From what I understand Adoptionism denies the virgin birth. I believe in the virgin birth. It is important because it establishes that Jesus was not born of the seed of Adam and therefore was not born under the curse of sin. Paul said that Jesus was the second Adam. As it was with the first Adam, Jesus did not have a biological father.

But that fact does not make Jesus God anymore than Adam was God. Unique? Absolutely. Because he had free will to disobey God and follow his own will, but chose to follow the will of God and lay down his life to free us from the curse, God has exalted him and placed the title and authority of Christ and Lord upon him. In a sense God has delegated his authority to Christ.

Jesus is divine in the aspect that he allowed God to fully indwell him. Theoretically everyone born again has received the promise of the same indwelling. In practice I have yet to meet someone who walks in that promise 24/7/365 like Jesus did. Does that mean each of us theoretically can become God? Of course not.

I fully believe and practice that we are to exalt and honor Jesus as the Messiah, Lord and Christ. In all practicality he is divine as the spirit of God fully dwells within him and God has delegated his authortiy to him. But like wise Jesus has also delegated some of that authority to us also, but that does not make us equal to him.

I only object to the Trinity doctrine that claims God consists of three different persons and the idea that Jesus was pre-existant and equal to God before the heavens and earth were created. The logos. i.e the concept of Christ the first born Son of God, existed in the mind of God and was pre-existant as a plan and purpose, but I do not believe the actual person of Jesus was pre-existant. But honestly it's not something I am steadfast about. If I were to see convincing evidence otherwise, I could be persuaded that Christ existed as a spirit before he was born of the virgin Mary. I'm just not convinced it's practically relevant to my faith though, so I won't passionately debate someone about it.
 





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...The logos. i.e the concept of Christ the first born Son of God, existed in the mind of God and was pre-existant as a plan and purpose, but I do not believe the actual person of Jesus was pre-existant. But honestly it's not something I am steadfast about. If I were to see convincing evidence otherwise, I could be persuaded that Christ existed as a spirit before he was born of the virgin Mary. I'm just not convinced it's practically relevant to my faith though, so I won't passionately debate someone about it.
Hi @Todd

I neglected to mention that the pre-existence of Jesus in the OT comes through (once you can spot it) like an open secret (when you read it in the light of the new)

As good a place to start as any:-

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/...jesus-in-every-book-of-the-old-testament.html

P.s. This line of discussion may also be on interest to @AspiringSoul ...

My favourite Christophany from Judges 13.

3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

8 Then Manoah intreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?

13 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.

14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
 





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Hi @Todd

I neglected to mention that the pre-existence of Jesus in the OT comes through (once you can spot it) like an open secret (when you read it in the light of the new)

As good a place to start as any:-

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/...jesus-in-every-book-of-the-old-testament.html

P.s. This line of discussion may also be on interest to @AspiringSoul ...

My favourite Christophany from Judges 13.

3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

8 Then Manoah intreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?

13 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.

14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
@Red Sky at Morning, I appreciate your desire to share with me, but I know all the arguments and probably have heard (and even shared them myself in the past) most of the reasons you are going to share for believing the pre-existence of Jesus and all the places where Jesus supposedly secretly manifested in the OT. I even briefly studied the idea that the arc-angel Michael was actually Jesus.

When you come from the presupposition of the Trinity, it makes sense to interpret these verses as Jesus himself, but it's not the only possible interpretation or explanation. I know you view it as evidence and it is convincing to you, but I can find just as many other convincing arguments for my point of view.

Please remember I was tried and true Trinitarian for 25 years. It's not likely you are going to convince me to go back! But I do appreciate your non-judgemental approach to our discussions. As much as can be witnessed through a message board, I can see the fruit of the Spirit in your life and that is what matters the most!
 





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@Red Sky at Morning, I appreciate your desire to share with me, but I know all the arguments and probably have heard (and even shared them myself in the past) most of the reasons you are going to share for believing the pre-existence of Jesus and all the places where Jesus supposedly secretly manifested in the OT. I even briefly studied the idea that the arc-angel Michael was actually Jesus.

When you come from the presupposition of the Trinity, it makes sense to interpret these verses as Jesus himself, but it's not the only possible interpretation or explanation. I know you view it as evidence and it is convincing to you, but I can find just as many other convincing arguments for my point of view.

Please remember I was tried and true Trinitarian for 25 years. It's not likely you are going to convince me to go back! But I do appreciate your non-judgemental approach to our discussions. As much as can be witnessed through a message board, I can see the fruit of the Spirit in your life and that is what matters the most!
I got saved listening to the following album one Christmas morning when I was about 8 or 9...


I don’t think I necessarily understood the Trinity back then enough to argue for or against it, but I knew that God had sent Jesus to die for me, and what He had done had brought me to faith and repentance (as much as I understood it).

According to the creed in the early verses of 1 Corinthians 15, I was born again that day. In the end, that is the most important thing of all.
 





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Hi @Todd

I neglected to mention that the pre-existence of Jesus in the OT comes through (once you can spot it) like an open secret (when you read it in the light of the new)

As good a place to start as any:-

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/...jesus-in-every-book-of-the-old-testament.html

P.s. This line of discussion may also be on interest to @AspiringSoul ...

My favourite Christophany from Judges 13.

3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

8 Then Manoah intreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?

13 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.

14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
Christ is in ALL the Scriptures OT and NT, and if He in all the Scriptures...He is God.
 





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Lol indeed - I won’t try to argue over Thomas with you. To a wider point, have you ever done a study in the characteristics of God? Did you note that the Bible applies these characteristics to Father, Son and Holy Spirit... for me there was no more complete evidence of the Trinity than this.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn37D9Z7GhvrnTmLz8b4H8MFXCLgKWbGp
Hi Red, The disputers of the Bible (The Doctrine of Christ) are like the Democratic party who wage war against President Trump.(if you have followed the news of CNN, MSNBC, NEW YORK TIMES and ABC that report lies and sensationalize them) As do the disputers of this age against God, They bring false accusations against the Holy teachings and doctrines to try to bring contention what is clear and true into dispute. They make up lies and magnify them with unfounded arguments to confuse the weak and unstable...and gullible. They try to insert different heresies and beat them to death till they get a following for the pride of overseer of the religious. It has always been Satan's purpose to draw men away from God and have his own following.
 





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According to the creed in the early verses of 1 Corinthians 15, I was born again that day. In the end, that is the most important thing of all.
I Agree wholeheartedly!

Thre is much mention of God and Christ in the same verses in 1 Cor 15, yet the context is clear to me that Christ and God are not the same. Seems the perfect context for Paul to teach and expound that Christ was God if that were in fact true. But in fact in verse 18 he instead expounds that when the fullness of the ages is complete Jesus himself will be made subject to God. This indicates to me that all the times Jesus spoke in the flesh of being subordinate to God the Father was not just a temporary condition during his "incarnation".
Intereseting also that 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is the passage that inspired my journey to study UR/Apokatastasis.
 





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If you are asking do i believe in the virgin birth, yes I do. But he was still a man, completely filled with the holy spirit and un-tainted by sin. A unique human for sure, but not God himself.
So you don't believe he had a human father . . . But he is still 100% human with no divine qualities except his inhuman righteousness and perfection?

Well Jesus uses the same word that is translated as "worship" in Matthew 18:26 and 18:29. The first time the ungrateful servant bows down to the King. The second time, the ungrateful servant goes to collect debt from another person and that person "bows" down before the ungrateful servant. In this parable is Jesus teaching that it is wrong for one to bow down to another human being? No that is not what the parable is about. If bowing down, should only be done to God, why would Jesus tell us about two people bowing down to other human beings and not tell us it is wrong? Jesus appears to have no issue describing a person bowing down out of revernece or seeking mercy, in front of another human being.

Another example is 1 Sam 24:8. Daivd bowed down or worshipped in front of King Saul. This the same David, who was called a man after God's own heart.
Is the same root word not used when talking about worshipping God though? I doubt that means mere respectful bowing. And as for David, several english translations say "worship" but the actual Hebrew word used just means bow down. Which makes sense as he refers to him as his king so the context there is a bit clearer.

I do believe Jesus died to free us from the power of sin. What I disagree with is that Jesus came to pay the price, i.e. take the penalty for our sin. The Bible says the wages of sin is death and the soul who sins shall die. Christians mistakeningly assume the penalty for sin is eternal torment in hell and that Jesus somehow paid the price for that, even though he never burned in eternal torment.
Everyone of us will still pay the price for our sin, as we will all die. But because the blood of Jesus we will be freed from the power of sin and death and be resurrected.
But is everyone not resurrected for the judgement regardless of whether or not they died believers? I suppose my biggest qualm with this is that a righteous man dying to break the power of sin for everyone else does make it sound like human sacrifice and therefore immoral . . . Like a certain snake-eyed poster likes to point out pretty often.

Agreed and that is why I reject the Trinity. Every verse that is used to "support" the Trinity doctrine has a more simple straightforward explanation, when one isn't already indoctrinated and biased by the trinity doctrine. Conversely Trinitarians come up with strange explanations for the words of Jesus himself that clearly show he did not consider himself God.
To be fair when I was growing up (before I rejected my faith) I wasn't indoctrinated with the idea of the Trinity -my formal exposure to Christianity was through the school I went to and they preferred to hammer on about guilt and not so much about who God really was/is. I'm also not really part of a church now so I didn't pick it up there either.

Now if you believe that by faith, God has shown you that the Trinity doctrine is true and you embarce that, I'm not going to condemn or judge you for it. While I may not agree with you, it doesn't change my ability to accept you as a sister in Christ. Thank God our salvation is not dependent on our theology being 100% correct or none of us could be saved.

I believe Jesus was completely indwelled by God, so in the figurative sense he was God in the flesh. But according to the New Testament we all have been given this gift of the Holy Spirit and each one of us has access to this promise that the Spirit of God can indwell us. We all are in a figurative sense supposed to be God in the Flesh, when we let the Spirit of God indwell and move through us. Paul explains it when he says it is no longer I that live but (the spirit) of Christ that lives within me. We can experience glimpses of that, but unfortunatley most of us still walk according to our flesh as much as we walk according to the spirit of God.

Bottom line, I don't believe that Jesus is the third person of a triune God. He was a perfect man completely and 100% indwelled with the spirit of God. That is why it is acceptable and right to worship (to bow down in respect) Jesus.
I agree and I'm grateful that salvation is not tangent on the "correct" view of this. I don't quite understand your view but I do respect it. I suppose the most important thing is how knowledge of the gospel impacts our individual lives and how God can use us within our real life spaces -which is why I'm planning on taking a break from here and focusing on my personal walk so this will be my last response.

God bless you Todd. :)
 





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And because they aren't "proper" sola scriptura and sola fides late-model Protestants, according to some of the responses on this board, they are not rightly called Christians:rolleyes:.
Isn’t it a good job that we don’t get to judge who is saved and who is not?

The open secret of God is that one day, each of us will meet Him personally, and he will not be looking for the advice or approval of others to determine whether our names should be in the Book of Life.