When Jesus came to Earth he came as a man. He also came as a teacher who lived and walked among people.There are verses in the bible which clearly state Jesus can't do anything without the father. Is there a verse which states that The Father cant do anything without Jesus? It is always Jesus relying on The Father but The Father is doing everything fine without the aid or intervention of Jesus...
Matthew 2:11: And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.He didn't allow himself to be worshipped, this is what your church has told you he said.
Why does equality in nature mean occupation of the same role? Especially with something as complex as the nature of God. But if Jesus was ONLY a servant, then why was he allowed to do the following:If your take on Jesus is true, you would've been able to explain it clearly. Even in the example you have given, it shows that the trinity is nonsensical as The Father is in heaven and Jesus walked the earth. If they were equal in nature, they wouldn't have been different in status and stature. Jesus' role as a servant, tells us he is not comparable to The Father in the slightest...
According to what is known, the gospel is a corroboration of witnesses.What do you mean by likely? Is that what you believe or what is widely accepted? Do dominations have differing views?
I'm sorry, my phone wouldn't let me quote the rest of your quotes.Matthew 2:11: And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.
Matthew 14:33: And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Matthew 28:9-10: And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Are you not a monotheist yourself?According to who?
We only assume this, because the scribes considered forgiving sins and being worshipped as solely for God. Yet Jesus was constantly correcting and pointing out how the scribes thinking was wrong. Where is the actual substance that says only God can forgive sin and only God can be worshipped?
Yes, to forgive those who sin against you. What about Revelation 22:8-9? Both men and angels rejected worship.Is God a person or not a person? Jesus said I can forgive sins also...in fact he commands me to.
The word worship means to bow down out of respect. There are numerous examples in the Bible of people bowing down out of respect for other human beings. Jesus being the Messiah is certainly worthy of us bowing down out of respect to him. No convoluted three in one God theory needed.
That really doesn't answer what I asked.OK, put simply, though all who come to Jesus and believe the gospel will be saved, some Christians will live unproductive lives and lose out on eternal rewards, therefore suffering great loss:-
1 Corinthians 3
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
If you rule a country, as King you have a huge say in things. You sit on a throne and have the final say in matters. If you're a prince, you cannot sit on the throne because you aren't the king. The king is greater than you and you can't do anything without the king's approval, but the king doesn't have to consult you. Did Jesus ever occupy the throne and was the father ever below Jesus?Why does equality in nature mean occupation of the same role? Especially with something as complex as the nature of God. But if Jesus was ONLY a servant, then why was he allowed to do the following:
Isn't this the verse after:John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Because Jesus came as a man. Not an immortal, not a demigod.Doesn't really answer my question. Is there a verse where The Father relies on Jesus? Why is it Jesus relying on The Father?
But why would he allow people to commit idolatry when his purpose was to show the way? Would that not be completely contradictory if he allowed them to sin?I'm sorry, my phone wouldn't let me quote the rest of your quotes.
Not one verse you posted showed Jesus directly saying worship me.
Equal in nature does not have to mean they occupy the same role.If you rule a country, as King you have a huge say in things. You sit on a throne and have the final say in matters. If you're a prince, you cannot sit on the throne because you aren't the king. The king is greater than you and you can't do anything without the king's approval, but the king doesn't have to consult you. Did Jesus ever occupy the throne and was the father ever below Jesus?
You argue that they are the same in power, but by having different roles, it tells us that one is more powerful than the other as His role is greater than the other. They cant be equal in nature if there is a difference in their ability to perform or govern...
Jesus was allowed to the things he did because The Father granted him the permission to do so. It was The Father who was really in control and Jesus was representing him. We believe that Moses had a staff and threw it to the floor and it turned into a snake. It looked as if Moses had the power to do this but he was only capable of this because The Father allowed him to means to do it.
It may tell you that but then why did he not correct his own disciples if that is what he was stating?Isn't this the verse after:
John 5:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
That tells me he corrected them.
Ok I'll ask again, Does The Father rely on Jesus? Is there a verse which states The Father can't do anything without Jesus?Because Jesus came as a man. Not an immortal, not a demigod.
Ok thanks for that.According to what is known, the gospel is a corroboration of witnesses.
Luke literally begins like this :
many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
No and no one ever claimed that equal nature meant co-dependancy.Ok I'll ask again, Does The Father rely on Jesus? Is there a verse which states The Father can't do anything without Jesus?
Ok so this is what I meant by Nature vs. Role. In the example of a king and prince that you gave, they are different in power and role, yes, but they remain of the same "essence" essentially -both are human and both are royal. The bible only hints at where Jesus was before coming to earth.Also, if he came as a man but was still relying on God for power, the fact that he was a servant tells me they were equal in nature at all. So this still doesn't clarify your stance. Where was Jesus before he was a man? What was his nature then?
John 20:27-29Where? Sorry to be a pain I'm not sure which verse you're referring to?
You said that they are the same in essence because they both do 'godly things' right? You also said the verse earlier meant they were different in terms of positioning. So I'm saying, because they are different in terms of positioning they can't be of the same essence. What is their commonality for them to be the same? Jesus did nothing alone without the father. So this tells me from the start, their essence isn't equal as the power Jesus had was given by the father. Unless you can prove prior to Jesus becoming a servant, he was still capable of the things he did and had the essence of a creator/a divine being?No and no one ever claimed that equal nature meant co-dependancy.
These examples are known and are easy to address since it comes from the assumption that they all testified these things at the same moment of the day which is wrong when we pay attention to the clues.Well there is a lot of contradiction amongst their testimonies:
A few examples
In fact they were there :how can you prove it was Jesus when the narrators weren't there
Both human and royal? But then you would still listen to the king over the prince so what would be the point of their unity if they weren't equal in essence and role? The prince only represents the king. If jesus only represented the father I wouldn't have an issue I'm failing to understand this essence you're talking about.Ok so this is what I meant by Nature vs. Role. In the example of a king and prince that you gave, they are different in power and role, yes, but they remain of the same "essence" essentially -both are human and both are royal. The bible only hints at where Jesus was before coming to earth.