The purpose of life in Christianity

Robin

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There are verses in the bible which clearly state Jesus can't do anything without the father. Is there a verse which states that The Father cant do anything without Jesus? It is always Jesus relying on The Father but The Father is doing everything fine without the aid or intervention of Jesus...
When Jesus came to Earth he came as a man. He also came as a teacher who lived and walked among people.

He didn't allow himself to be worshipped, this is what your church has told you he said.
Matthew 2:11: And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33: And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9-10: And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:16-17: Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Luke 24:51: While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

John 9:37-38: Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Hebrews 1:6: And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 22:3: No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

As opposed to:

Revelation 22: 8-9
"“When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, ‘You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God’

I don't go to a specific church and that wasn't something anyone told me.

If your take on Jesus is true, you would've been able to explain it clearly. Even in the example you have given, it shows that the trinity is nonsensical as The Father is in heaven and Jesus walked the earth. If they were equal in nature, they wouldn't have been different in status and stature. Jesus' role as a servant, tells us he is not comparable to The Father in the slightest...
Why does equality in nature mean occupation of the same role? Especially with something as complex as the nature of God. But if Jesus was ONLY a servant, then why was he allowed to do the following:

Mark 2:5-7
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”​

John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.​

This would be easily rectifiable -surely Jesus could have simply corrected them and avoided their ire by asserting that he was in fact NOT comparing himself to God.


John 20:27-29
Then [Jesus] said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me?”​

2 Peter 1:1
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.​

Hebrews 1:3
[Jesus] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.​

If you can read an alternative to each of these please share.
 





Wigi

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What do you mean by likely? Is that what you believe or what is widely accepted? Do dominations have differing views?
According to what is known, the gospel is a corroboration of witnesses.

Luke literally begins like this :

many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
Luke 1:1‭-‬2
 





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When Jesus came to Earth he came as a man. He also came as a teacher who lived and walked among people.
Doesn't really answer my question. Is there a verse where The Father relies on Jesus? Why is it Jesus relying on The Father?
 





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Matthew 2:11: And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33: And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9-10: And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
I'm sorry, my phone wouldn't let me quote the rest of your quotes.

Not one verse you posted showed Jesus directly saying worship me.
 





Robin

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According to who?
We only assume this, because the scribes considered forgiving sins and being worshipped as solely for God. Yet Jesus was constantly correcting and pointing out how the scribes thinking was wrong. Where is the actual substance that says only God can forgive sin and only God can be worshipped?
Are you not a monotheist yourself?

Matthew 4:10
"You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve."

Exodus 20:4-5,
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God."

Is God a person or not a person? Jesus said I can forgive sins also...in fact he commands me to.
The word worship means to bow down out of respect. There are numerous examples in the Bible of people bowing down out of respect for other human beings. Jesus being the Messiah is certainly worthy of us bowing down out of respect to him. No convoluted three in one God theory needed.
Yes, to forgive those who sin against you. What about Revelation 22:8-9? Both men and angels rejected worship.
 





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OK, put simply, though all who come to Jesus and believe the gospel will be saved, some Christians will live unproductive lives and lose out on eternal rewards, therefore suffering great loss:-

1 Corinthians 3

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
That really doesn't answer what I asked.
 





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Why does equality in nature mean occupation of the same role? Especially with something as complex as the nature of God. But if Jesus was ONLY a servant, then why was he allowed to do the following:
If you rule a country, as King you have a huge say in things. You sit on a throne and have the final say in matters. If you're a prince, you cannot sit on the throne because you aren't the king. The king is greater than you and you can't do anything without the king's approval, but the king doesn't have to consult you. Did Jesus ever occupy the throne and was the father ever below Jesus?

You argue that they are the same in power, but by having different roles, it tells us that one is more powerful than the other as His role is greater than the other. They cant be equal in nature if there is a difference in their ability to perform or govern...

Jesus was allowed to the things he did because The Father granted him the permission to do so. It was The Father who was really in control and Jesus was representing him. We believe that Moses had a staff and threw it to the floor and it turned into a snake. It looked as if Moses had the power to do this but he was only capable of this because The Father allowed him to means to do it.
 





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John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Isn't this the verse after:

John 5:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

That tells me he corrected them.
 





Robin

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Doesn't really answer my question. Is there a verse where The Father relies on Jesus? Why is it Jesus relying on The Father?
Because Jesus came as a man. Not an immortal, not a demigod.

I'm sorry, my phone wouldn't let me quote the rest of your quotes.

Not one verse you posted showed Jesus directly saying worship me.
But why would he allow people to commit idolatry when his purpose was to show the way? Would that not be completely contradictory if he allowed them to sin?
If you rule a country, as King you have a huge say in things. You sit on a throne and have the final say in matters. If you're a prince, you cannot sit on the throne because you aren't the king. The king is greater than you and you can't do anything without the king's approval, but the king doesn't have to consult you. Did Jesus ever occupy the throne and was the father ever below Jesus?

You argue that they are the same in power, but by having different roles, it tells us that one is more powerful than the other as His role is greater than the other. They cant be equal in nature if there is a difference in their ability to perform or govern...

Jesus was allowed to the things he did because The Father granted him the permission to do so. It was The Father who was really in control and Jesus was representing him. We believe that Moses had a staff and threw it to the floor and it turned into a snake. It looked as if Moses had the power to do this but he was only capable of this because The Father allowed him to means to do it.
Equal in nature does not have to mean they occupy the same role.
 





Robin

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Isn't this the verse after:

John 5:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

That tells me he corrected them.
It may tell you that but then why did he not correct his own disciples if that is what he was stating?
 





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Can't wait for the plot twist where the actual word in Aramaic used was creator and not literal father all along and bad translations brought to this.
 





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Because Jesus came as a man. Not an immortal, not a demigod.
Ok I'll ask again, Does The Father rely on Jesus? Is there a verse which states The Father can't do anything without Jesus?

Also, if he came as a man but was still relying on God for power, the fact that he was a servant tells me they were equal in nature at all. So this still doesn't clarify your stance. Where was Jesus before he was a man? What was his nature then?
 





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According to what is known, the gospel is a corroboration of witnesses.

Luke literally begins like this :

many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
Luke 1:1‭-‬2
Ok thanks for that.

Well there is a lot of contradiction amongst their testimonies:

A few examples:

In Acts and the Gospel of Luke, the disciples were commanded to stay in Jerusalem and, in fact, met Jesus (peace be upon him) there (see Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:33, 47, 49). In Matthew 28:10 and Mark 16:6-7, the disciples are commanded to go to Galilee, and in Matthew 28:16-18, we are told they see Jesus (peace be upon him) there, not in or near Jerusalem...

Matthew 28:2 says "an angel" "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it"; Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone); Luke 24:4 says they saw "two men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing"; in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.

Mark 16:2 states "the sun had risen" at the time of this visit, while John 20:1 states "it was still dark."

My issue is that whilst we agree there was a death, how can you prove it was Jesus when the narrators weren't there...

Whose account is considered more probable and why?
 





Robin

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Ok I'll ask again, Does The Father rely on Jesus? Is there a verse which states The Father can't do anything without Jesus?
No and no one ever claimed that equal nature meant co-dependancy.

Also, if he came as a man but was still relying on God for power, the fact that he was a servant tells me they were equal in nature at all. So this still doesn't clarify your stance. Where was Jesus before he was a man? What was his nature then?
Ok so this is what I meant by Nature vs. Role. In the example of a king and prince that you gave, they are different in power and role, yes, but they remain of the same "essence" essentially -both are human and both are royal. The bible only hints at where Jesus was before coming to earth.

John 1:1-5
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

John 17:1-5
"Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christwhom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Where? Sorry to be a pain I'm not sure which verse you're referring to?
John 20:27-29
Then [Jesus] said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me?”
 





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No and no one ever claimed that equal nature meant co-dependancy.
You said that they are the same in essence because they both do 'godly things' right? You also said the verse earlier meant they were different in terms of positioning. So I'm saying, because they are different in terms of positioning they can't be of the same essence. What is their commonality for them to be the same? Jesus did nothing alone without the father. So this tells me from the start, their essence isn't equal as the power Jesus had was given by the father. Unless you can prove prior to Jesus becoming a servant, he was still capable of the things he did and had the essence of a creator/a divine being?

Where was jesus and what was he doing before he was a servant? Whilst he was on earth he certainly wasn't of the same essence of God.
 





Wigi

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Well there is a lot of contradiction amongst their testimonies:

A few examples
These examples are known and are easy to address since it comes from the assumption that they all testified these things at the same moment of the day which is wrong when we pay attention to the clues.
They are complementary.

how can you prove it was Jesus when the narrators weren't there
In fact they were there :

"he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe."
John 19:35

And then these things occured:

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
Luke 24:39‭-‬40

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:26‭-‬28

They recognized Him then they were with Jesus during 40 days before His departure.
 





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Ok so this is what I meant by Nature vs. Role. In the example of a king and prince that you gave, they are different in power and role, yes, but they remain of the same "essence" essentially -both are human and both are royal. The bible only hints at where Jesus was before coming to earth.
Both human and royal? But then you would still listen to the king over the prince so what would be the point of their unity if they weren't equal in essence and role? The prince only represents the king. If jesus only represented the father I wouldn't have an issue I'm failing to understand this essence you're talking about.

Even so, how is The Father the same as Jesus in essence? One is an supreme being which has never been seen and one was a man. What is their common essence?