The purpose of life in Christianity

Wigi

Established
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
310
Likes
493
If I remember correctly, Jesus didn't want to die and asked The Father to follow through with his own will.
I don't remember this verse.



The correct conclusion to this is that Jesus didn't want to offer himself up as a sacrifice so asked The Father to murder him
If I remember correctly, Jesus got betrayed then He accepted a punishment He didn't deserve.

Jesus offered himself up for sacrifice (which is suicide since you're killing yourself) or The Father murdered him
Jesus offered his life for punishment and the crowd wanted him dead
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,152
Likes
12,057
If heaven and hell is entirely based on "faith" then its awfully unjust because your deeds have nothing to do with it. So if you were a good person who never wronged anyone? Hell for you. If you are a child rapist? Hell for you too. How is this just?
How can two people doing two completely awful things, be given the same punishment?

If the guy in your neighborhood who stole a candy from a store got 10 years in prison and a guy who massacred 50 people in cold blood also got 10 years in prison, would you ever call that justice? Would you ever say that those two things deserve the equal amount of punishment?
You may find this relevant to your question:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/spiritual-building-materials.6209/
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
Maybe a better analogy is that space contains three dimensions, yet the dimensions are not separate ‘parts’ — the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.
The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister — he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

Other than that I have no explanation as to why Jesus allowed himself to forgive sins and be worshipped -two things reserved solely for God. If he were not of the same substance/being as God then the religious scribes were correct and he would've been a blasphemer.
There are verses in the bible which clearly state Jesus can't do anything without the father. Is there a verse which states that The Father cant do anything without Jesus? It is always Jesus relying on The Father but The Father is doing everything fine without the aid or intervention of Jesus...

There are verses which state Jesus is a prophet, there are other verses where Jesus prays to The father. Quoting a verse clear as 'My father is greater than I' then saying it is referring to positioning is absurd. The conclusion you drew from that verse cannot be substantiated, where is it referring to heavenly status and position??? Does the verse which precedes it state that? Or maybe the verse which comes after it?

He didn't allow himself to be worshipped, this is what your church has told you he said. There are more verses which show that Jesus was sent by The Father and The Father gave him the ability to perform miracles than there are to show that he was divine himself and equal in nature to God. If you said that Jesus was sent by The Father and The Father gave Jesus his power, I would have no issue with this. It would be a case of you following Jesus the man, sent by God which makes more sense.

If your take on Jesus is true, you would've been able to explain it clearly. Even in the example you have given, it shows that the trinity is nonsensical as The Father is in heaven and Jesus walked the earth. If they were equal in nature, they wouldn't have been different in status and stature. Jesus' role as a servant, tells us he is not comparable to The Father in the slightest...
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
don't remember this verse.
Sure I can post it, had to look it up


Luke 22:42 ►


“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
Jesus offered his life for punishment and the crowd wanted him dead
What verse shows he offered his life? Genuinely curious - if it isn't any trouble could you post it?

Also wouldn't it have made more sense for The Father to save him? His mission as messiah wasn't fulfilled so surely he had to be kept alive for this to happen?

In islam we believe God took him up to the heavens and he hasn't died. He will descend from the heavens (on an angel's wing I believe, he isn't God so needs help from God's soldiers!) to defeat the anti christ.
 





Wigi

Established
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
310
Likes
493
Sure I can post it, had to look it up


Luke 22:42 ►


“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”
'I want your will'

And you said earlier :

"Jesus didn't want to die and asked The Father to follow through with his own will."

God's will was to offer Himself.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,152
Likes
12,057
If I remember correctly, Jesus didn't want to die and asked The Father to follow through with his own will.

1. Jesus didn't have the same will as the father so they can't have and can't be of the same nature. They must have the same nature and will to be equal.

2. Jesus didn't really commit suicide if we take that verse into consideration (where he asks the father to do his will sorry, don't have the verse) so it's actually The Father murdering his son since The Father's will is greater than Jesus's.

The correct conclusion to this is that Jesus didn't want to offer himself up as a sacrifice so asked The Father to murder him.

Depending on what trinitarian doctrine you follow, either Jesus offered himself up for sacrifice (which is suicide since you're killing yourself) or The Father murdered him.
Who killed Jesus?

The murder of Jesus was a vast conspiracy involving Rome, Herod, the Gentiles, the Jewish Sanhedrin, and the people of Israel—diverse groups who were seldom fully in accord with one another. In fact, it is significant that the crucifixion of Christ is the only historical event where all those factions worked together to achieve a common goal. All were culpable. All bear the guilt together. The Jews as a race were no more or less blameworthy than the Gentiles.


This is very plainly stated in Acts 4:27, a corporate prayer offered in an assembly of the very earliest believers: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together." So there is no justification whatsoever for trying to fix the blame for Jesus' death on any one people group. This was, in essence, a corporate act of sinful humanity against God. All are guilty together.

And yet even that does not exhaust the full truth about who killed Jesus. Scripture emphasizes from cover to cover that the death of Christ was ordained and appointed by God Himself. One of the key Old Testament prophecies about the crucifixion is Isaiah 53. Isaiah prophetically describes the torture of the Messiah at the hands of a scoffing mob, and then adds, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief" (Isaiah 53:10).

God put his own Son to death?

That is precisely what Scripture teaches. Why? According to Isaiah 53:10 , it was to "make His soul an offering for sin." God had a redemptive purpose.

The designs of those who killed Christ were entirely murderous. They are by no means exonerated from their evil, just because God's purposes are good. It was still the act of "lawless hands" (Acts 2:23). It was, as far as the human perpetrators were concerned, an act of pure evil. The wickedness of the crucifixion is in no sense mitigated by the fact that God sovereignly ordained it for good. The truth that it was His sovereign plan makes the deed itself no less a diabolical act of murder.

And yet this was clearly God's holy and sovereign plan from before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). Look again at that prayer from Acts 4, this time in its full context:

Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: "Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ." For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done (Acts 4:24-28), emphasis added).

Acts 2:23 echoes the same thought: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (emphasis added).

God ordained the murder of Jesus. Or to put it starkly in the words of Isaiah 53:10, it pleased the Lord to bruise Him.

In what sense was God pleased by the death of his Son?

He was pleased by the redemption that was accomplished. He was pleased that His eternal plan of salvation was thus fulfilled. He was pleased with the sacrifice of his Son, who died so that others might have eternal life. He was pleased to display his righteous anger against sin in such a graphic way. He was pleased to demonstrate His love for sinners through such a majestic sacrifice.

For all the evil in the crucifixion, it brought about an infinite good. In fact, here was the most evil act ever perpetrated by sinful hearts: The sinless Son of God—holy God Himself in human flesh—was unjustly killed after being subjected to the most horrific tortures that could be devised by wicked minds. It was the evil of all evils, the worst deed human depravity could ever devise, and the most vile evil that has ever been committed. And yet from it came the greatest good of all time—the redemption of unnumbered souls.

The cross is therefore the ultimate proof of the utter sovereignty of God. His purposes are always fulfilled in spite of the evil intentions of sinners. God even works His righteousness through the evil acts of unrighteous agents. Far from making Him culpable for their evil, this demonstrates how all He does is good, and how He is able to work all things together for good (Romans 8:28)—even the most wicked deed the powers of evil have ever conspired to carry out.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A336/who-killed-jesus
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
'I want your will'

And you said earlier :

"Jesus didn't want to die and asked The Father to follow through with his own will."

God's will was to offer Himself.
I gave you 2 conclusions based on different trinitarian beliefs since none of you can agree one thing...

Why did The Father have a different will to Jesus?
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,385
Likes
5,573
It's still suicide. Sacrifice would be you working 3 jobs to raise your kid.
Then god dying for us is suicide no?
because if I, killing myself, for someone else is suicide, then god killing himself for someone else is also suicide lol
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
Who killed Jesus?

The murder of Jesus was a vast conspiracy involving Rome, Herod, the Gentiles, the Jewish Sanhedrin, and the people of Israel—diverse groups who were seldom fully in accord with one another. In fact, it is significant that the crucifixion of Christ is the only historical event where all those factions worked together to achieve a common goal. All were culpable. All bear the guilt together. The Jews as a race were no more or less blameworthy than the Gentiles.


This is very plainly stated in Acts 4:27, a corporate prayer offered in an assembly of the very earliest believers: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together." So there is no justification whatsoever for trying to fix the blame for Jesus' death on any one people group. This was, in essence, a corporate act of sinful humanity against God. All are guilty together.

And yet even that does not exhaust the full truth about who killed Jesus. Scripture emphasizes from cover to cover that the death of Christ was ordained and appointed by God Himself. One of the key Old Testament prophecies about the crucifixion is Isaiah 53. Isaiah prophetically describes the torture of the Messiah at the hands of a scoffing mob, and then adds, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief" (Isaiah 53:10).

God put his own Son to death?

That is precisely what Scripture teaches. Why? According to Isaiah 53:10 , it was to "make His soul an offering for sin." God had a redemptive purpose.

The designs of those who killed Christ were entirely murderous. They are by no means exonerated from their evil, just because God's purposes are good. It was still the act of "lawless hands" (Acts 2:23). It was, as far as the human perpetrators were concerned, an act of pure evil. The wickedness of the crucifixion is in no sense mitigated by the fact that God sovereignly ordained it for good. The truth that it was His sovereign plan makes the deed itself no less a diabolical act of murder.

And yet this was clearly God's holy and sovereign plan from before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). Look again at that prayer from Acts 4, this time in its full context:

Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: "Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ." For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done (Acts 4:24-28), emphasis added).

Acts 2:23 echoes the same thought: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (emphasis added).

God ordained the murder of Jesus. Or to put it starkly in the words of Isaiah 53:10, it pleased the Lord to bruise Him.

In what sense was God pleased by the death of his Son?

He was pleased by the redemption that was accomplished. He was pleased that His eternal plan of salvation was thus fulfilled. He was pleased with the sacrifice of his Son, who died so that others might have eternal life. He was pleased to display his righteous anger against sin in such a graphic way. He was pleased to demonstrate His love for sinners through such a majestic sacrifice.

For all the evil in the crucifixion, it brought about an infinite good. In fact, here was the most evil act ever perpetrated by sinful hearts: The sinless Son of God—holy God Himself in human flesh—was unjustly killed after being subjected to the most horrific tortures that could be devised by wicked minds. It was the evil of all evils, the worst deed human depravity could ever devise, and the most vile evil that has ever been committed. And yet from it came the greatest good of all time—the redemption of unnumbered souls.

The cross is therefore the ultimate proof of the utter sovereignty of God. His purposes are always fulfilled in spite of the evil intentions of sinners. God even works His righteousness through the evil acts of unrighteous agents. Far from making Him culpable for their evil, this demonstrates how all He does is good, and how He is able to work all things together for good (Romans 8:28)—even the most wicked deed the powers of evil have ever conspired to carry out.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A336/who-killed-jesus
Very simple question.

Why does sin prevail despite the sacrifice of Jesus?

Sure, he died for your sins but why is sin still so widespread? Shouldn't there have been some relief in the world?

Also, if he died for my sins, regardless of my belief, I'm saved because acknowledging his sacrifice doesn't take away his sacrifice for all of mankind
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,385
Likes
5,573

Wigi

Established
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
310
Likes
493
What verse shows he offered his life?
Many

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
John 10:15

"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth."
Acts 8:32

And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?”
Mark 14:60

Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”
Matthew 26:67‭-‬68

"And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing."
Matthew 27:12

Then Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they cried out all the more, “Crucify Him!”
Mark 15:14
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,152
Likes
12,057
You have to realize that I am a student with an awful amount of workload, there is only so much power left in me to decipher excess stuff and also I don't speak in parables. I'd prefer straight, concise answers over extra confusion.
OK, put simply, though all who come to Jesus and believe the gospel will be saved, some Christians will live unproductive lives and lose out on eternal rewards, therefore suffering great loss:-

1 Corinthians 3

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,942
Many

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
John 10:15

"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth."
Acts 8:32

And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?”
Mark 14:60

Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”
Matthew 26:67‭-‬68

"And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing."
Matthew 27:12

Then Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they cried out all the more, “Crucify Him!”
Mark 15:14
Thanks for that.

Were any of these authors witnesses to the actual event?
 





Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,041
Likes
2,988
Other than that I have no explanation as to why Jesus allowed himself to forgive sins and be worshipped -two things reserved solely for God. If he were not of the same substance/being as God then the religious scribes were correct and he would've been a blasphemer.
According to who?
We only assume this, because the scribes considered forgiving sins and being worshipped as solely for God. Yet Jesus was constantly correcting and pointing out how the scribes thinking was wrong. Where is the actual substance that says only God can forgive sin and only God can be worshipped?
 





Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,041
Likes
2,988
No because they are not three separate gods. Do you believe that Jesus forgave people their sins in his time on earth? Or that he allowed worship in several places whereas angels and men had rejected it? Because if Jesus was just an ordinary man, unless all of those instances were falsified (in which case one might as well rip the whole bible to shreds), then what he did was heretical.
Is God a person or not a person? Jesus said I can forgive sins also...in fact he commands me to.
The word worship means to bow down out of respect. There are numerous examples in the Bible of people bowing down out of respect for other human beings. Jesus being the Messiah is certainly worthy of us bowing down out of respect to him. No convoluted three in one God theory needed.