The purpose of life in Christianity

manama

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What do you suppose the pure Passover Lamb, and the blood on the doorposts signified? Was God just being mean to lambs or was there more to it than that?

You really love speaking all over the place. If someone intentionally sets up their own death, its suicide, if they don't and they are killed by someone else regardless, its murder.

Elsbet said its not suicide because its not "intentional" but if God sacrificed "himself" in order to give people salvation, it HAS to be intentional otherwise God was just murdered no?
 

Robin

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You really love speaking all over the place. If someone intentionally sets up their own death, its suicide, if they don't and they are killed by someone else regardless, its murder.

Elsbet said its not suicide because its not "intentional" but if God sacrificed "himself" in order to give people salvation, it HAS to be intentional otherwise God was just murdered no?
Suicide and murder both ignore the resurrection. Death was and is NOT the final state.

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You really love speaking all over the place. If someone intentionally sets up their own death, its suicide, if they don't and they are killed by someone else regardless, its murder.

Elsbet said its not suicide because its not "intentional" but if God sacrificed "himself" in order to give people salvation, it HAS to be intentional otherwise God was just murdered no?
John 10

Jesus the Good Shepherd

7Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.

19Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Suicide and murder both ignore the resurrection. Death was and is NOT the final state.

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
Posted the same thing at the same time?!
 

manama

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Suicide and murder both ignore the resurrection. Death was and is NOT the final state.

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
So if you die but you are supposed to come back to life its not suicide or murder? Then its not really a sacrifice now is it? If in a story, an immortal breaks his neck as a sacrifice knowing that it will be fixed in a few minutes anyway, is it really a "sacrifice"?

Plus Christians are supposed to come back to life no? So if you kill yourself, its not suicide? If I kill you, is it not murder?
 

manama

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John 10

Jesus the Good Shepherd

7Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.

19Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
The "my father" part has reminded me, i'm still waiting for the answer to that suspicious "as".
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The "my father" part has reminded me, i'm still waiting for the answer to that suspicious "as".
I have not forgotten - I am considering not just what I want to say, but how I can say it to you in such a way as connects meaningfully with your understanding. It might take a week and I don’t want to write you a book on it, but I have it in mind ;-)
 

Robin

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So if you die but you are supposed to come back to life its not suicide or murder? Then its not really a sacrifice now is it? If in a story, an immortal breaks his neck as a sacrifice knowing that it will be fixed in a few minutes anyway, is it really a "sacrifice"?

Plus Christians are supposed to come back to life no? So if you kill yourself, its not suicide? If I kill you, is it not murder?
We don't "resurrect" ourselves by our own power. The whole point is that Jesus has victory over the curse of death.

Hebrews 2:14
"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Revelation 1:18
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
 

Haich

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Suicide and murder both ignore the resurrection. Death was and is NOT the final state.

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
It literally states that the command was received from the father clearly showing the trinity isn't a triune unity between 3 equal beings.

How can you just gloss over that? From an outward perspective, can you not see how that verse is contradictory of your faith?
 

Haich

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So now we are redefining suicide and murder to understand christianity.

Guys maybe it's not the wording that's an issue, but the belief you hold is so far fetched and confusing that in His mercy, God has made it incomprehensible for you guys to highlight and simplify the absurdity you hold dear.

I'm sorry to use such strong a wording but it's wordplay and mental gymnastics with you lot.
 

Todd

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P p

A person who hated and rejected God all their life (whether they realised it or not) would hate being with God in Heaven for eternity.
That has to be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read from a Christian. Is your faith in God's goodness that weak? The only reason people reject and hate God in this lifetime is because the pain and suffering of this life(and the hypocrisy of those who claim to represent God) have blinded them to the truth about God. They only reject God because they have believed the oldest lie that has ever existed.
When they see God with the veil of this world removed, there is no single person that God's love and goodness will not win over. Despite all our disagreements about doctrine and theology I have always assumed you and I still worship the same God. After this statement I'm not so sure. I'm finding it hard to comprehend that a Christian doesn't think God's love and goodness isn't enough to win over even the hardest heart.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The only reason people reject and hate God in this lifetime is because the pain and suffering of this life(and the hypocrisy of those who claim to represent God) have blinded them to the truth about God. They only reject God because they have believed the oldest lie that has ever existed.
That bears some examination:-

Why do people reject God according to Romans 1? Because of the pain and suffering in this life?

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
 
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A person who hated and rejected God all their life (whether they realised it or not) would hate being with God in Heaven for eternity.
Like I said, still a much better option than torture. I’m sure you agree an you’re just being purposely obtuse

Think of a evil sinner who loved their sins and remained unrepentant until their last breath:
why should they be with God, a Being of Light, Righteousness and Holiness for Eternity?
I already said that in the imaginary scenario, what if you’re not allowed to know who takes your place, it’s an anonymous person of god’s choosing. What would you choose in that case, knowing next to nothing about the person?

Think of a Christian - born again through faith in Jesus Christ, made a child of God - who from their conversion has sought to please/ follow God, their pattern of life showed a 180 degree turn, a progression from walking to please self to living to serve God:
why should they be asked to consider giving their heavenly inheritance to someone who will always have the *heart* of a Satanist (live to please SELF not God)?

God the Father would never ask such a question of His children.
Maybe not, but it’s beside the point since it’s a hypothetical situation for the purpose of self-reflection. It’s not meant to be theological, just a thought exercise.
 

Haich

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Au contraire, I think you are redefining Jesus’s atoning sacrifice by associating them with either murder or suicide in an attempt to critique Christianity.
Not at all, I've said this before, I try to come from an objective place. I can't view Christianity through the lens I view islam. The two are incomparable...

What would you call it then? Someone sacrificing themselves is suicide. Regardless of the intention, killing yourself to save another is suicide.
 

Todd

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That bears some examination:-

Why do people reject God according to Romans 1? Because of the pain and suffering in this life?

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
That's all fine and good and I agree with it from an aspect of what is happening in this present world. There are hearts are darkened, but if this hypothetical situation were to occur and they were thrust into the full glory of the incorruptible God, you don't think they would recognize their foolishness?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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That's all fine and good and I agree with it from an aspect of what is happening in this present world. There are hearts are darkened, but if this hypothetical situation were to occur and they were thrust into the full glory of the incorruptible God, you don't think they would recognize their foolishness?
If I were to say that I would like to think so (for their sake) but don’t find any compelling reasons to believe so, would that make sense?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Not at all, I've said this before, I try to come from an objective place. I can't view Christianity through the lens I view islam. The two are incomparable...

What would you call it then? Someone sacrificing themselves is suicide. Regardless of the intention, killing yourself to save another is suicide.
The Bible states that the “wages of sin is death”. Given that we all sin, and have inherited sin nature’s through Adam, we are in trouble spiritually.

In order to approach God, we must be perfectly holy, yet we are not so, even in our best and most religious moments.

Perhaps, given this insoluble condition, the need to fully satisfy justice, by punishing sin, and fully satisfy love (by paying the price) makes sense.

From where I stand, I might decide that all the really nice people might make it, and below a certain standard, others might stay outside. This doesn’t take into account the perfection of heaven or the perfection of God.

Hebrews 10 says it so much better than me!

Animal Sacrifices Insufficient

1For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Hold Fast Your Confession

19Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
 

Wigi

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What would you call it then? Someone sacrificing themselves is suicide. Regardless of the intention, killing yourself to save another is suicide.
A sacrifice isn't a suicide and a suicide isn't a sacrifice.

The way I see it, one takes his life for personal matters while the other offers his life and get killed to save others.

That's the difference between Jesus and Judas.
 
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