The Normal-Literal Method of Bible Interpretation vs. Allegoricalism

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#22
Well at least your aware of it...

What would make you ignore mathematical protocol to deduct the 70 prior to multiplying?
I think it is for those aware of both poles of confirmation bias to re-read the post and determine if the “literal” logic is reasonable or not, after all, it is a prophecy, not a sum in the strict conventional sense... I’m not sure what the mathematical convention was back in Ezekiel’s day!
 





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#23
I think it is for those aware of both poles of confirmation bias to re-read the post and determine if the “literal” logic is reasonable or not, after all, it is a prophecy, not a sum in the strict conventional sense...
But that’s the thing about prophecies, they can be manipulated to suit any ends. I would deduct the 70 after multiplying because that’s how you do math. You won’t. Two ways of doing math leads to two very different conclusions with what appears to be just one minor change.

I will also say the Bible was around for many many years prior to the decision to “create” Israel. So these prophecies were known to the people making the call. They could play with the numbers themselves same way we can.

I’m very aware of confirmation bias. Seeing as I brought it up that should be clear. But my own personal bias should be going in the other direction based on my upbringing and environment yet it’s not.
 





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#24
I’m very aware of confirmation bias. Seeing as I brought it up that should be clear. But my own personal bias should be going in the other direction based on my upbringing and environment yet it’s not.
Interesting difference of interpretations. Just considering the whole confirmation bias question @justjess , and this is one for you to ponder not necessarily to elicit a reply right away... What would you rather believe? Which interpretation of the Bible is most in line with your wishes?

I know that for me, I would rather believe a "straightforward", faithful interpretation of scripture, but as my wishes support the kind of view I take intellectually, I do aim to be self-critical in my conclusions. Everyone is biassed. The real question is "which bias is the best bias to be biassed with" ;-)
 





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#25
You are commiting some gross mathematical errors.... PEMDAS - multiplication comes before subtraction

So 430x7=3010-70=2940

Have you ever heard of confirmation bias?
Actually...

Your reply bears a bit more attention. Under normal circumstances, I might agree with your mathematical observations. Here, there is a judicial aspect involved, which clarifies the order of the calculation.

The first part, arriving at the 360 years is on account of one offence (I.e. unfaithfulness to God).

The second wider exile hence the multiplying factor came as judgement on rebellion.

I believe the sum should therefore look like:-

(390+40-70) x 7 = 2520
 





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#26
Where is the 70 you are using coming from and at what point did it occur? Before or after the multiplying rebellion?
 





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#27
Where is the 70 you are using coming from and at what point did it occur? Before or after the multiplying rebellion?
The length of the Babylonian captivity ...

The Jews were punished with 70 years of exile for the 70 Shmita years (sabbatical years) they did not keep. (Chronicles II 36:21).

As they didn’t keep any, rather like with a prisoner who has time served deducted from the sentence, the 70 years was deducted from the 430.
 





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#28
The length of the Babylonian captivity ...

The Jews were punished with 70 years of exile for the 70 Shmita years (sabbatical years) they did not keep. (Chronicles II 36:21).

As they didn’t keep any, rather like with a prisoner who has time served deducted from the sentence, the 70 years was deducted from the 430.
That wasn’t my question... did this event occur before or after the event which caused the seven times multiplier?
 





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#29
It is a matter of historical note that only about 5% of the Hebrews returned with Ezra (and even they didn't all follow God) so God would have been perfectly within his right to apply his "sevenfold" judgement from Leviticus on the Jews for their continued disobedience. This would then mean that the remaining judgement would have been 360 x 7, or 2520 years.
The seven sevens/weeks in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is 7 x 360 or 2520 weeks.

Not that this has anything to do with that prophecy but it is a witness to the fact that seven sevens/weeks in Daniel 9 is 7 x 360 weeks.




Now the Jews use the Lunar calendar and this is the but that requires a cup of coffee and some concentration:-

2520 x 360 (Jewish lunar calendar days) = 907,200 days.

The end of the Babylonian captivity began spring (Nisan) 536 BC

Divide this 907,200 by 365.25 (our solar calendar year) and you get 2483.8 solar years.*

*It is important at this stage to note that there was only one year between Passover in 1 BC and Passover in 1 AD, i.e. no 0 year BC.

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So, if we begin our count from the end of the Babylonian captivity in spring 536 BC and add an exile of 2483.8 calendar years (based on that 7 times judgement for continued disobedience)...

2483.8 - 536.4 (the years BC) we get 1947.4.

Now add one on and you get 1948.4.

The Nation of Israel was formed on May 14th 1948.

Now we don't know exactly when king Cyrus told them to go home... his uncle i presume Darius the Mede was presiding over Babylon for 3 or 4 years before Cyrus around 537/535 BC was shown the prophecy about himself.

With an online day counter one can check the start date down to the day if one knows the end date and the number of days between...in this case the end date is May 14 1948 and the number of days are 907 200... that gives a start date of July 21 537 BC.

And that could very well be the day Cyrus ended the Babylonian captivity.
 





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#30
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#31
Because he had a non literal interpretation of the ascension.

God didn’t get rid of him ( at least not the good one ), he fell off a cliff, or was murdered for getting too close to the truth.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ersjdamoo.wordpress.com/2014/12/14/bishop-pike-murdered/amp/
I wonder...

Lee Strobel put the disproof of the Resurrection at the centre of his attempted investigation to crush the new faith of his wife. His investigation into the literal event changed his mind.

 





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#33
The current state of Israel didn’t happen by accident. It was orchestrated by a bunch of guys who read your book and set out purposely to fulfill it
Let me point out that, regardless of how it physically came about, the prophecy of Israel's rebirth has literally been fulfilled.

But who do you suppose the "bunch of guys" are? Christians like me, who study prophecy? Hardly.

Christians like me know better than to try and force prophecy. Abraham was prophesied a son, but he got impatient and, instead of fathering one with his wife as God told him he would, he first had one with his wife's handmaid. It didn't turn out well for anyone. Jacob and Esau are another example of an attempt to force prophecy that ended up causing nothing but trouble.

The point is, if someone like me is familiar enough with prophecy to look for it's fulfillment, that someone would also be aware of how dangerous it is to try and force God's hand. But even if a bunch of guys were foolish enough to try and fulfill prophecy by their own efforts, who do you suppose it was who preserved Israel during their 2000 years between states?

Have you considered the odds of any people being expelled from their homeland, hated and killed almost everywhere they went, their language of Hebrew literally unspoken, and then one day they are a living nation again? The language of Hebrew is the only language in history that was considered dead, and it is revived. It's now spoken by nearly 10 million people, half of whom are native speakers. Are you going to tell me that's something that "a bunch of guys who read a book" did? You don't have the slightest grasp of what you're talking about.

There's also the reason for Israel's prophetic return to their land. They are there in preparation for their final time of judgement. The Holocaust took one out of every three Jews, but this time it will be two out of every three. Does that sound like something a Christian like me would want to happen? It's with terrible awe that I see the things taking place that the Bible prophesies, and it's horrifying to think about what's to come, but it won't be guys like me who are going to make it happen.
 





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#34
No @Thunderian i don’t think it was Christians like you. I think it was evil people with evil purposes. They use Christians like you with your good intentions to achieve their nefarious purposes. But that is neither here nor there.

I have no problem with Jews, just to make that clear. I have Jewish relatives and Jewish friends since childhood. Im sorry for all they’ve been through as a people, I think it’s awful. I still don’t support Israel.

And since I don’t believe in the Bible seeing any silver lining in this situation is somewhat impossible.