The New Left and Feminism - A Right Winge

JustAMan

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There is a concept called "Horseshoe Theory" (or effect) whereby those at the extreme ends of political views end up quite similar (authoritarian). I consider it a failure of reason of both sides (left and right) at the extreme and are in ideological wastelands - dictated more via emotion and reactionary narratives then that of reasoned discourse. The more traditional socialist left at least had a rigor that was based in a historical philosophical inquiry that the "new left" has no time for. "Identity Politics" is often called the "cancer of the left" within the left itself. The "Left" is yet to come to terms with the perversion of liberalism that embodies "identity politics" and refuses to consider criticism that such politics also give credence to the rise of right wing white nationalism are a reaction to such.

The new left (I blame relativism and postmodernism in universities) gave "lived experience" and identity prominence over rational discourse and intellectual inquiry. Somewhere along the line it became fashionable for those entering university not to discover the truths of history, science, and philosophy but to "change the world" based on their own perceived personal injustices. Feelings over facts. Instead of steeling themselves in debate and challenges their world view they retreated to safe spaces - an intellectual shrinking of one's world, not an expansion.

The end result is that what was once a shining light in learning from history and the humanities became a witch hunt in re-interpreting great works through the lens of the "oppressed". Feminism (or Women's studies) became anti-intellectual (as a political movement it had to be) and its tentacles spread throughout the humanities departments throughout the Western world. In order to get published in a feminist journal one has to acknowledge and make the subject of oppression the very reason for the paper.

Denial that oppression as a presupposition to all discourse is not allowed to be disputed else one falls into the rhetorical technique of the Kafka trap - denial is guilt. Somewhere along the way some in feminism decided justice itself was the very representation of patriarchy. The concept of justice in Western Liberal Democracies has always stated that one is innocent until proven guilty Furthermore it is more morally unjust for an innocent man to to be punished then for a guilty man to walk free - modern day pop media feminism appears not to hold such views (e.g. #MeToo)

As Women' studies faculties became more entrenched and feminist authors become "published", feminism became an industry. An industry that ceased to believe in "objective truth" as "truth" does not pay - it became a self serving industry that peddles oppression and patriarchy - these two concept pay the bills. Career feminists are now the norm - who cares about real oppression when I can get a book published. Take a journey into the dogs breakfast that is feminist theory and you enter the twilight zone. It is basically the wild west that has an agreed internal cease fire (bar the radical fems vs the gender fems) because mutual annihilation is assured.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel - "Intersectional feminism" - taken to its theoretical end, it basically eliminates the concept of "women as a class" of oppressed people (and for that manner men as a definable class of oppressors). Intersectional feminism states women can be oppressed in multitudes of ways "ethnicity, age, economic class, disability, intellectual history...the list goes on". The beauty of Intersectional Feminism is that in coming out of its quagmire of accommodation in order to get popularity (Bell Hooks smart girl - what have you done) came the feminist "trans positive" movement - the Antichrist of feminism

A great popcorn moment is reading feminist theory attempting to reconcile the trans movement within gender (or liberal) feminism . No matter how hard they try and how much intellectual gymnastics you read - the two are fundamentally at odds. The basic tenant of gender feminism is a gender is a social construct. They gender feminists in their infinite wisdom wish to eliminate all that is biological in behavior - why you ask? It is nothing to do with truth and everything to do with the ability to rationalize the perceived power to change behavior - if some behavior is innate and biological it is not socially changeable - viola! Nothing more to it then that. No amount of books, papers, social change etc will change some innate biological behavior. For the gender feminist (the majority feminists in university campuses today) it is all about money and power to feather one's own nest - self edifying wokeness

Yet ask a gender feminist (trans positive supporter), how can a trans person be born in the wrong body if gender is a social construct? - hello biology babe. The TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Feminists - just 2nd generation feminists) are having none of it - yet still they shit blank refuse to acknowledge they are somehow supporting biological determinism and that yes biology does have a say in our behavior - it is all very silly. - See what I mean by feminist theory being a "dogs breakfast"

In my oppressing opinion the Radical 2nd Gen feminists took Marx's class based oppression and using this as the basis of their oppression narrative at least had something interesting to say. The gender oppression thing kind of falls down though when one takes a closer look at behavior from a psychological perspective - namely the human condition and associated behaviors are shaped by not just gender but many other factors (socio-economic, culture (feminists won't touch this - relativism remember, family situation, lifestyle, personality etc).

Thank God I am not a confused conflicted feminist.
 
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justjess

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I’m not sure you have a full understand of what “behavior” is scientifically... there are two types of behavior - respondent and operant. Respondent behavior is innate, it is biological. It includes things such as hunger, thirst, sleep, sexual drive.. Operant behavior is learned behavior. Where gender based norms fall, would be for the most part operant. The vast majority of all behavior is operant. Very few things fall under respondent and those things typically have to do with survival. You could make a case that heterosexual sex is respondent but sex for survival doesn’t need to include attraction. And the only part of sexual behavior that is respondent is the drive to have it, all other sexual behavior is learned. So maybe they have a glitch? Idk but even if they do we all have glitches. Places where the generic human code goes a little wiry.

As for transgender.. I understand the argument your trying to make, Ive made it myself but from an opposite perspective. Transgender’s are associating themselves with the learned behavior of the opposite gender and thinking that means they must actually be the opposite gender when it doesn’t. That’s actually supportive of gender as a construct, rather than disproving. You can be a boy and like dresses without actually being a girl. You can be a girl and want to drive trucks or lift weights without being a boy. (Very oversimplified, I know). The whole transgender thing is a grey area that I’m not personally too comfortable because the argument they are making doesn’t even make sense when actually looked at.

But none of the above changes FEMINISM or the belief in equality between sexes.
 

JustAMan

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I’m not sure you have a full understand of what “behavior” is scientifically... there are two types of behavior - respondent and operant. Respondent behavior is innate, it is biological. It includes things such as hunger, thirst, sleep, sexual drive.. Operant behavior is learned behavior. Where gender based norms fall, would be for the most part operant. The vast majority of all behavior is operant. Very few things fall under respondent and those things typically have to do with survival. You could make a case that heterosexual sex is respondent but sex for survival doesn’t need to include attraction. And the only part of sexual behavior that is respondent is the drive to have it, all other sexual behavior is learned. So maybe they have a glitch? Idk but even if they do we all have glitches. Places where the generic human code goes a little wiry.

As for transgender.. I understand the argument your trying to make, Ive made it myself but from an opposite perspective. Transgender’s are associating themselves with the learned behavior of the opposite gender and thinking that means they must actually be the opposite gender when it doesn’t. That’s actually supportive of gender as a construct, rather than disproving. You can be a boy and like dresses without actually being a girl. You can be a girl and want to drive trucks or lift weights without being a boy. (Very oversimplified, I know). The whole transgender thing is a grey area that I’m not personally too comfortable because the argument they are making doesn’t even make sense when actually looked at.

But none of the above changes FEMINISM or the belief in equality between sexes.
Thanks for your response. From my psych studies the theory you describe above is from the school of "Behaviorism" formulated by B.F. Skinner and Pavlovs experiments with animals. This approach was quite popular in the early days of psychology but is not widely practiced today as a singular approach by psychologists. One of the main criticism of Behaviorism is that it is not very "human like" and does not taken into account things which separate us from animals - namely our ability for self reflection and free will. Psychology is really an umbrella term for many approaches (Cognitive, Humanistic, Psychotherapy etc towards understanding the totality of human experience. This is not to say all of Behaviorism has been superseded. Things such as addiction and those behaviors more associated with non-conscious motivations, the concepts in Behaviorism are often still used.

The point you are making in relation to Transgenders "associating" themselves with the opposite gender therefore proving a social constructionist reason as to Transgenderism is not clear. The question is WHY are they associating themselves with the opposite gender and the cause is often biological or genetic. With any discussion about causes in behavior in populations there will always be exceptions to the common rule (some Trans are via personal choice) however many Trans people often state that have been "born in the wrong body".

The criticism I have with Feminism is with Feminist theory and the mish-mash of contradictions. Primarily it attempts to be a coherent philosophy (used to be called the Philosophy of Gender) when it reality it is also a political movement. Often political movements (depending on the circumstance) will not tolerate dissent or outside influence and anti-intellectualism is rife.

The belief in the equality of the sexes as a core tenet of feminism should be its greatest asset - it sells itself. However Feminism has outgrown its core belief and now has to continue to peddle the falsities of the oppression narrative. As I mentioned to many people have their whole careers invested in pushing this narrative.

The reality is we live in a post-feminist world - just don't try and argue this with a feminist (you won't be allowed).
 

Vision

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@morita - Could you expand on this please?

I assume you tweeted this..?

esp this
The higher up you are in the hierarchy, the better you'll get treated. The likelier you are to protect the system that rewards you for your behaviour and the likelier you are to view the oppressor as "not so bad"
Bringing it here as I didn't want to derail the other thread.

For context i'm not white, American or a woman. I just want more information.
 

morita

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@morita - Could you expand on this please?

I assume you tweeted this..?

esp this

Bringing it here as I didn't want to derail the other thread.

For context i'm not white, American or a woman. I just want more information.
just look at who in this forum are rabid attack dogs for men: all white women who are married with kids.
They have the least incentive to overthrow men, because they benefit from the system that men created. I expanded on that in another thread. There is a hierachy within the female sex in that if you do womanhood correctly, meaning having kids and getting married to a man, you'll be treated better within the system.
You can compare that to being a house negro vs slave negro in the context of race. A house nergo is treated better by his master but ultimately he still isn't free. And feminism is about the "liberation" of women, not begging for better treatment in a system that's fundamentally about injustice and inequality.

 
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The reality is we live in a post-feminist world - just don't try and argue this with a feminist (you won't be allowed).
Im a feminist, ive always been very open about it on here.

but what ill say is we have two types of feminism now the radical feminist ( tradition) and liberal feminists. Im classed as a radical feminist because im against the new trans radicals, i refuse to say trans women are women, i fight against children being used in drag shows. Ive also been told because i dont believe in these things im not allowed to be a feminist, ive also received, death and r*pe threats for refusing to tow the line, im not joking ive received a lot of death and r*pe threats. liberal feminism is fascist and incredibly evil.

This is the issue feminism has been tainted by liberal feminism and real feminism has been over shadowed and linked to this new twisted feminism. Real feminists want to talk, we want to discuss and we actually care about men (ive petitioned for better care for mens mental health, im anti draft and better medical care), women and children equally and are horrified in this new liberal feminism.
 
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-Homosexual men who mutilate their genitals and dilate the festering wound daily to keep it open deserve womens rights = liberal feminism
-Women deserve womens rights = radical feminism
completely agree

these men are now also demanding lesbian women or straight men treat them like women, that by denying them sex or relationships is bigoted.
 
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completely agree

these men are now also demanding lesbian women or straight men treat them like women, that by denying them sex or relationships is bigoted.
The sad reality of empowering mental illness rather than health. The left has been coopted by no less than satanic impulses. Many people who were in leftist movements before the wave of satanism (dont know what else to call it) have experienced this. Derrick Jensen who is a long time environmental activist started taking heat from trans rights people because one of his meetings wouldnt let homosexual men shower with the women. (and by taking heat, of course it means the men received death threats and the women receive death and r@pe threats).

He's given heat because he says r@pe exists and r@ping children is wrong, where the radical anarchists say any rule around sexuality is puritanism

This video he shows that all the founding theorists of "queer theory" advocated for p***philia, the same theorists whos ideas about gender are being taught in schools
 
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The sad reality of empowering mental illness rather than health. The left has been coopted by no less than satanic impulses. Many people who were in leftist movements before the wave of satanism (dont know what else to call it) have experienced this. Derrick Jensen who is a long time environmental activist started taking heat from trans rights people because one of his meetings wouldnt let homosexual men shower with the women. (and by taking heat, of course it means the men received death threats and the women receive death and r@pe threats).

He's given heat because he says r@pe exists and r@ping children is wrong, where the radical anarchists say any rule around sexuality is puritanism

This video he shows that all the founding theorists of "queer theory" advocated for p***philia, the same theorists whos ideas about gender are being taught in schools
when JK Rowling said only women have ovaries and vaginas, this is what she encountered. the left is sick, they encourage p***philia, abuse to women and regressive stereotypes.
1605307547927.png

If women stand up tot he sick trans radical cult they get called terfs ( trans exclusionary radical feminists) and that is a sugnal to abuse, threaten and attack women, and some men.

1605307700184.png1605307714294.png1605307758293.png1605307811978.png1605307848784.png1605307866538.png

this isnt feminism, this isnt anything good this is vile mentally ill people being encouraged by the media that agrees with it
 

TempestOfTempo

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This is a really important conversation and I hope people remain respectful and info-oriented here... because this seems too important to derail with personal issues or emotional spillage.
 
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This is a really important conversation and I hope people remain respectful and info-oriented here... because this seems too important to derail with personal issues or emotional spillage.
This is why i still to this forum, its such a relaxed and respectful site, even when people disagree theres no name calling or threats, I used to go on top secret but people are rude and aggressive there and if you disagree it can get really nasty.
 

Lyfe

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White males make up for the consensus of whos rights and place in society is most in jeopardy right now. Everyone gonna be walking over them as a doormat if this social justice madness keeps up its pace and people keep drinking the kool aid.
 

TempestOfTempo

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White males make up for the consensus of whos rights and place in society is most in jeopardy right now. Everyone gonna be walking over them as a doormat if this social justice madness keeps up its pace and people keep drinking the kool aid.
If you think Caucasian males are the most oppressed class of people in the US... there is the distinct possibility that you don't actually live here lol
 

Lyfe

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If you think Caucasian males are the most oppressed class of people in the US... there is the distinct possibility that you don't actually live here lol
This is actually what I said...

White males make up for the consensus of whos rights and place in society is most in jeopardy right now
 

irrationalNinja

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Well yeah I guess when you hold a privileged elevated position and people want to join you your place in society is jeopardized.
Being jealous of white men because of some supposed gender/racial oppression, fails to recognize the gifts you, as a woman, possess. If feminists were happy with equal rights and the gifts they already possess, as opposed to being unhappy because they covet what men have, there would be no feminists.

For example, feminists think more women should be boss, seemingly regardless of qualifications to be an effective boss. Generally, men work longer hours, on average, than women. Men take fewer days off than women, with women taking longer vacations, more often, on average, than men. Generally, women make different choices about pursuing work opportunities and, on average, choose a greater amount of leisure time than men.

Who will be more likely to get a promotion to be boss: The woman who chooses to go on maternity leave to nurse a baby, or the man who chooses to put in overtime on the weekends?

People, both men and women, make different choices. That is not “privilege” and it is not “oppression.” It is personal preference.
 
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White males make up for the consensus of whos rights and place in society is most in jeopardy right now. Everyone gonna be walking over them as a doormat if this social justice madness keeps up its pace and people keep drinking the kool aid.
i suppose when you have experienced elevated privilege for so long the idea of everyone else being equal to you does feel like oppression
 
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Being jealous of white men because of some supposed gender/racial oppression, fails to recognize the gifts you, as a woman, possess. If feminists were happy with equal rights and the gifts they already possess, as opposed to being unhappy because they covet what men have, there would be no feminists.

For example, feminists think more women should be boss, seemingly regardless of qualifications to be an effective boss. Generally, men work longer hours, on average, than women. Men take fewer days off than women, with women taking longer vacations, more often, on average, than men. Generally, women make different choices about pursuing work opportunities and, on average, choose a greater amount of leisure time than men.

Who will be more likely to get a promotion to be boss: The woman who chooses to go on maternity leave to nurse a baby, or the man who chooses to put in overtime on the weekends?

People, both men and women, make different choices. That is not “privilege” and it is not “oppression.” It is personal preference.
You comment is just full of the usual strawman, anti-feminist, anti equality rethoric that has been spouted since non white men decided they wanted the same rights as white men.

White men have historically had more advantage which was intensified by the late 19th century eugenics movement which believed the white man was the superior human, more intelligent and important than women of any race and any man who was not white. This has continued even to day.

Also women's rights were not a gift they were hard earned, and your attitude to such rights says more than your convoluted comment. Women do not cover what men have, women have a right to the same things as men, a penis is not some key that opens doors that vagina havers are not in possession of.

Feminists do not want to just be the boss, they want the opportunity to be the boss, many companies have sexist and racist ideologies that lock our any one who is not a white man, most industries have a boys club mentality, feminists want this removed so everyone has the opportunity if they work for it.

Do you have statistics for this men working longer hours and are these longer hours just paid work be side on average women work exorbitant amount of unpaid hours in childcare, elderly parent care, cleaning and cooking. All of which are work, but such work is undervalued be side it's viewed as woman's work.
Where is this leisure time they so choose exactly?

Women have only just gained the rights to work, the rights to not be a mother, the right to contraceptives, the rights to their own bank accounts, the right to deny sex to a husband, the rights to an education further education and the right to own or rent a house. Some rights were only granted in the last 20 years (marital r*pe was outlawed in the 90s). So yes women are catching up, also many of the above rights are not afforded women in many countries. Many women do not chose their situation but are thrust into it, forced by a society that deems her worth on how many children exit her birth canal and how well she mother's her husband.

You even down play the contributions of women who do choose to be housewives, a man may work over time but a housewife never gets a test, her job is 24/7 , unpaid, underappreciated and an object of ridicule.
 
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