The Muslum Christian

JoChris

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Agreed. It seemed to me more like a humble, hopeful and polite request put out by them though... rather than anyone "summoning" (which would be extremely arrogant - like summoning someone to have to go to court. Courts don't invite you to come, if convenient and if it is your wish. They "summon" people, which means they then have to go there, due to being forced(Matt.5:25), against their will). I don't know what else they do, though, but interesting clip. Scripture says to be humble and that God looks on the heart and that He does not like arrogance. I wonder (not knowing, just wondering), if perhaps those lights might perhaps have been made to appear to them as a reward, because of not being arrogant, but since they were being sincere, humble, thankful and loving, and perhaps seeking truth.. instead. It could have been scout ships... to let people know they are here and that the time is near.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (Matthew)

JoChris,
If you are going to quote, then please be so kind as to also post the link in future (like you have done with some of your previous posts). Thank you.
http://jahtruth.net/kcnot.htm
bible student
That was an oversight. Apologies.

As for the rest of your claims - why won't you start another thread specific to JAHtruth writings because they depart so much from both Islam and Christianity? If you actually believe in JAHtruth, then you should be willing to defend Jahtruth separately.
 

Serveto

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Again with the assumptions, JoChris?

If you are snobby towards those websites because of oversimplified presentation TOUGH.
First, I am not snobby: you are projecting. Secondly, I am unimpressed with CARM in this instance because they did not answer my questions. @bible_student, on the other hand, did, and as I have continuously said, he answered them well. Get it? If not, TOUGH.
You need to keep in mind that I select websites that are not directed towards you only. CARM gives good summaries.
I followed your advice to read in context, context, context and had a few questions. You directed me to CARM, instead of fully answering the questions. CARM gave a lousy summary and in any case is not participating on this discussion forum.
2. I know you are unlikely to read theology websites, and if even you do bother you will *somehow* know better than Christian scholars themselves, who do Greek translations when relevant etc. *typed with a nice face on*. :)
Especially when it's about me and based solely upon your assumptions, you don't know jack shit. That was typed with mine on as well.
 
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Todd

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Apr 16, 2017
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If you now believe the bible *correctly* translated is "institutionalised position of man" then there is no hope for you, a professed ex-Christian...

Unless your position as an apostate is an impression only. I hope for your eternal sake I am being extremely pessimistic. God knows your heart.
Yes God knows my heart, and you certainly don't, just as I don't know yours.

Please explain why there is no hope for me?

Is it because I love God with all my heart, strength, soul and mind?
Is it because I love my neighbor as myself?
Is it because I choose to observe the feasts ordained by God and not the Pagan derived holidays of Christianity?
Is it because I believe when it says Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, I believe it really means the entire world and not just who you think are saved?
Is it because I don't believe that God is evil, that he would create humans just to torture them with no purpose for eternity?
Is it becaue I believe the Torah (the perfect guidance and instruction of God) has not been abolished, just as Jesus himself said?

I'll take my chances believing the above rather than trusting in the following things:
A doctrine that even the most ardant biblical scholars who defend, admit there is no real biblical basis for. (The Trinity)
A God that would torture anyone for eternity with no real end purpose.
A self appointed 13th (the number of rebellion) Apostle who perfectly fits the warnings of God in Duet 13, and the warnings of Christ in Matthew 24, fits the description of one that is rebuked by Jesus in Revelation and fits the Benjamin ravenous wolf prophecy of Genesis 49.

And please don't come back with the whole "I don't understand without the leading of the Holy Spirit" thing. Jesus described the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as reminding us of the words that He himself spoke. For 25 years I was trained and then ordained to preach the doctrine of institutionalized Christiantiy which elevate the words of Paul over and above the words of Christ. I have witnessed first hand the fruit of it, both in my own life and the lives of those I lead and taught. For the last five years I have slowly been re-learning the true religion of Jesus and the disciples (The way). I am overwhelmed by the blessing and fruit it is producing in my life.

The institutionalized religion of Christianity is built on the words of Paul, while the true church is built on the same revelation that Peter had. The revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. The true apostles preached a costly grace, where obedience was better than sacrifice.

The true Apostles taught that denying Christ in the flesh was the sign of a false teacher. Paul denied Christ in the flesh. He had no desire or need to learn from the disciples what Jesus taught in the flesh. The only quote of Jesus he bothered to use was to water down the passover feast into the sacrment of communion. Paul did not preach the same Christ that Peter, James and John knew but promoted and preached his mystical version of Christ.

God warned that he would send false prophets that would seduce us from the law, as a test. It was the Roman empire told you to accept Paul's writings as the word of God.
 

JoChris

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Again with the assumptions, JoChris?


First, I am not snobby: you are projecting. Secondly, I am unimpressed with CARM in this instance because they did not answer my questions. @bible_student, on the other hand, did, and as I have continuously said, he answered them well. Get it? If not, TOUGH.

Again, I am not posting CARM links only for your sake. I doubt most non-Christians would skim past the first paragraph if they couldn't understand what the writer had said easily.

Especially when it's about me and based solely upon your assumptions, you don't know jack shit. That was typed with mine on as well.
I am going on the fact we gave the verses and you couldn't even understand how they fitted together, even when it was explained to you.

Perhaps we went into too much detail compared to bible student. (At least he managed to get through to you at the end - thank you bible student.)
 
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No that is a parable, not to be taken literally.
There are plenty of scriptures that state the dead are “asleep” and know nothing.
There is no indication of it being a parable because it is NOT.

Furthermore, those that are asleep in Christ is referring to the BODIES in the graves awaiting bodily resurrection at the 2nd coming.

The spirit is most certainly departed from the dead body, already in Heaven or Hell.

Jesus assured the thief on the Cross that was crucified alongside Him and got saved that he would be in Paradise that same day.
 

Serveto

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Again, I am not posting CARM links only for your sake. I doubt most non-Christians would skim past the first paragraph if they couldn't understand what the writer had said easily.
Well, if it wasn't primarily for my sake, why did you quote me and direct me to CARM? If you are going to play to the gallery, then play to the gallery.
I am going on the fact we gave the verses and you couldn't even understand how they fitted together, even when it was explained to you.
Who is, or are, the "we" in question? You didn't answer my questions, plural, the ones which arose when I read in context, context, context, but @Vytas and @bible_student did.
Perhaps we went into too much detail compared to bible student. (At least he managed to get through to you at the end - thank you bible student.)
As I said, he (and @Vytas) opened their Bibles, addressed the questions, and answered them in their own words. Thank you @Vytas and @bible_student.
 
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JoChris

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Yes God knows my heart, and you certainly don't, just as I don't know yours.

Please explain why there is no hope for me?

Is it because I love God with all my heart, strength, soul and mind?
Is it because I love my neighbor as myself?
Is it because I choose to observe the feasts ordained by God and not the Pagan derived holidays of Christianity?
Is it because I believe when it says Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, I believe it really means the entire world and not just who you think are saved?
Is it because I don't believe that God is evil, that he would create humans just to torture them with no purpose for eternity?
Is it becaue I believe the Torah (the perfect guidance and instruction of God) has not been abolished, just as Jesus himself said?
You return to your own version of works righteousness, contradicting the Bible. Again the apostles believed the apostle Paul was one of them.
Contradicting Paul is contradicting the bible. It does not matter one little bit if you dismiss any verse he has written.
This passage applies to you:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


I'll take my chances believing the above rather than trusting in the following things:
A doctrine that even the most ardant biblical scholars who defend, admit there is no real biblical basis for. (The Trinity)
A God that would torture anyone for eternity with no real end purpose.
A self appointed 13th (the number of rebellion) Apostle who perfectly fits the warnings of God in Duet 13, and the warnings of Christ in Matthew 24, fits the description of one that is rebuked by Jesus in Revelation and fits the Benjamin ravenous wolf prophecy of Genesis 49.
Then you are condemned.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

For 25 years I was trained and then ordained to preach the doctrine of institutionalized Christiantiy which elevate the words of Paul over and above the words of Christ. I have witnessed first hand the fruit of it, both in my own life and the lives of those I lead and taught. For the last five years I have slowly been re-learning the true religion of Jesus and the disciples (The way). I am overwhelmed by the blessing and fruit it is producing in my life.
Church history shows that 11 out of the 12 apostles were martyred. Your definition of success is worldly. There are way more successful atheists and false religion church leaders than you.
...The true Apostles taught that denying Christ in the flesh was the sign of a false teacher. Paul denied Christ in the flesh.
LIAR. Risen from the dead = body made alive, body showing no corruption = flesh alive. Use some reading comprehension.

Readers, please do keyword search on Biblegateway "Paul" and you will see how wrong Todd is.

Examples:
Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said......
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people....

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+13:16-41&version=KJV

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.....
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+15&version=KJV

God warned that he would send false prophets that would seduce us from the law, as a test. It was the Roman empire told you to accept Paul's writings as the word of God.
LIAR. Again anyone who can read the bible can see that the apostles accepted Paul and his writings, despite you refusing to do so.

I will not waste much time on you now, as I will obey this commandment.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself
.

If I do respond, it is only for seekers/ young Christians' sake not yours. You - along with several uptickers (for now) - are determined to disbelieve.
 

JoChris

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Well, if it wasn't primarily for my sake, why did you quote me and direct me to CARM? If you are going to play to the gallery, then play to the gallery.

Who is, or are, the "we" in question? You didn't answer my questions, plural, the ones which arose when I read in context, context, context, but @Vytas and @bible_student did.

As I said, he (and @Vytas) opened their Bibles, addressed the questions, and answered them in their own words. Thank you @Vytas and @bible_student.
1. I had not visited this forum for months. You did not stick out in my memory, except that you were/are a non-Christian.
2. "We" referred to the Christians who had bothered replying to you.
3. Well God used Balaam's Ass to get through a disobedient prophet https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+22:21-31&version=KJV, therefore He can use whomever He wills (e.g. to minister to other people), even using atheists. :)
 

DavidSon

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This chat you are having here, reminded me childhood :D Feel free to assume roles

link
Funny you should note that. The historian Higgins stated that Aesop's (sop, sophia, wisdom) fables represented the authentic esoteric beliefs of the ancients much clearer than the religion of christianity.

Yup I'm sure after this conversation the Muslims are lining up to be baptized and get in on the action.:D
 
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Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
2,040
Yes God knows my heart, and you certainly don't, just as I don't know yours.

Please explain why there is no hope for me?

Is it because I love God with all my heart, strength, soul and mind?
Is it because I love my neighbor as myself?
Is it because I choose to observe the feasts ordained by God and not the Pagan derived holidays of Christianity?
Is it because I believe when it says Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, I believe it really means the entire world and not just who you think are saved?
Is it because I don't believe that God is evil, that he would create humans just to torture them with no purpose for eternity?
Is it becaue I believe the Torah (the perfect guidance and instruction of God) has not been abolished, just as Jesus himself said?

I'll take my chances believing the above rather than trusting in the following things:
A doctrine that even the most ardant biblical scholars who defend, admit there is no real biblical basis for. (The Trinity)
A God that would torture anyone for eternity with no real end purpose.
A self appointed 13th (the number of rebellion) Apostle who perfectly fits the warnings of God in Duet 13, and the warnings of Christ in Matthew 24, fits the description of one that is rebuked by Jesus in Revelation and fits the Benjamin ravenous wolf prophecy of Genesis 49.

And please don't come back with the whole "I don't understand without the leading of the Holy Spirit" thing. Jesus described the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as reminding us of the words that He himself spoke. For 25 years I was trained and then ordained to preach the doctrine of institutionalized Christiantiy which elevate the words of Paul over and above the words of Christ. I have witnessed first hand the fruit of it, both in my own life and the lives of those I lead and taught. For the last five years I have slowly been re-learning the true religion of Jesus and the disciples (The way). I am overwhelmed by the blessing and fruit it is producing in my life.

The institutionalized religion of Christianity is built on the words of Paul, while the true church is built on the same revelation that Peter had. The revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. The true apostles preached a costly grace, where obedience was better than sacrifice.

The true Apostles taught that denying Christ in the flesh was the sign of a false teacher. Paul denied Christ in the flesh. He had no desire or need to learn from the disciples what Jesus taught in the flesh. The only quote of Jesus he bothered to use was to water down the passover feast into the sacrment of communion. Paul did not preach the same Christ that Peter, James and John knew but promoted and preached his mystical version of Christ.

God warned that he would send false prophets that would seduce us from the law, as a test. It was the Roman empire told you to accept Paul's writings as the word of God.
@Todd
Unfortunately, it is true that Paulian Christians are completely wrong in their beliefs (some of the things you brought up) because of a GROSS misinterpretation of what Paul said in his epistles (letters) by the churches, as well as a complete misunderstanding of his statements regarding The Law.

That is why Peter gave the warning -

3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and Godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the "heavens" being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other Scriptures, unto their OWN destruction.

Paul was talking only about the ceremonial part of The Law that had to do with animal sacrifice for the forgiveness for sin (and circumcision) which was only a schoolmaster to bring the people to Christ, and which was fulfilled and made obsolete at the Cross by Christ's Sacrifice - once for all. (The Lamb of God)

What Paul wrote has been so grossly misunderstood and misused by the Church, that what you wrote in that post is completely understandable. The problem they have, is you cannot possibly understand what Paul was talking about, if you are not actually following and doing the teachings (Christ's) yourself - crucifying the "self" daily to subdue it and bring it into submission, as Paul said and attempted to explain in his letters:
http://jahtruth.net/noti.htm

Paulian Christians therefore have to realize soon that they need to choose between the two options:

Return now to following and doing Christ's Teachings and start receiving Christ's fiery baptism (willingly), or, if not, they will all cause themselves to have to face "The Fire" (soon):

Enoch
66:14 And when the angels shall ascend, the water of the springs shall again undergo a change, and be frozen. Then I heard holy Michael answering and saying: This Judgement, with which the angels (Beings - souls) shall be judged, shall bear testimony against the kings, the princes, and those who possess (and think they own) the Earth.
66:15 For these waters of judgement shall be for their healing, and for the death of their bodies (Flood and Watery-Baptism). But they shall not perceive and believe that the waters will be changed, and become a fire (Luke 3:16), which shall blaze forever (Fiery-Baptism or The Fire - the choice is yours).

Deuteronomy
33:2 And he said, The "I AM" came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of the holy people: from His right hand (The Word) [went] a fiery (spiritual) Law for them.

Matthew
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable Fire.

@JoChris
 
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Vytas

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Funny you should note that. The historian Higgins stated that Aesop's (sop, sophia, wisdom) fables represented the authentic esoteric beliefs of the ancients much clearer than the religion of christianity.

Yup I'm sure after this conversation the Muslims are lining up to be baptized and get in on the action.:D
Christianity has nothing to do with esoteric beliefs.
 

DavidSon

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I agree that outwardly some Muslims are more moral than many Christians.

It does not change the fact they reject Jesus as the Son of God, Lord and Saviour, and instead believe in the false god of Islam.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Muhammad rejected Jesus so he was eternally condemned. Muslims will also be in Hell with him for eternity if they do not repent and believe the Gospel.
So Islam worships a different God than the Israelites and Christ Jesus himself worshiped? Your ignorance knows no bounds.
 
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So Islam worships a different God than the Israelites and Christ Jesus himself worshiped? Your ignorance knows no bounds.
Agreed. Her level of ignorance is astounding.

This is why Paul wrote the following:

1 Timothy
2:11 Let the woman learn in SILENCE with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to USURP authority over the man, but TO BE IN SILENCE.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 
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1. I had not visited this forum for months. You did not stick out in my memory, except that you were/are a non-Christian.
2. "We" referred to the Christians who had bothered replying to you.
3. Well God used Balaam's Ass to get through a disobedient prophet https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+22:21-31&version=KJV, therefore He can use whomever He wills (e.g. to minister to other people), even using atheists. :)
I'm not an athiest, and neither is Vytas, so this ignorant and appauling comment made by you right here (3) is not only both offensive and very rude, but also very defaming of character. Perhaps you should read your own comment, JoChris and then go and carefully consider yourself for some time. While you are at it, learning some polite manners would not be a bad idea either, and I would highly recommend it. Before you allow rude comments like this to put too many people off from Christianity altogether. Seriously. Please think carefully about this, and who it is that such remarks are really serving. Peace be upon you, bible student.
 

Serveto

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1. I had not visited this forum for months. You did not stick out in my memory, except that you were/are a non-Christian.
Not that I want you to, but if you leave the forum for months again, please, next time, do remember me and send post-cards, recollecting all of the good times we've had and are having.
2. "We" referred to the Christians who had bothered replying to you.
In that case, speak for yourself. Obviously not all Christians consider me a bother. In fact, some of them are my best friends, on and off the board, and many more are family members.
3. Well God used Balaam's Ass to get through a disobedient prophet https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+22:21-31&version=KJV, therefore He can use whomever He wills (e.g. to minister to other people), even using atheists. :)
That was always a good, amusing story, and does kind of indicate a sense of humor on God's part. While I don't doubt that God can use an ass for His own purposes, I do trust that one need not necessarily be an ass for Him to do so. Thanks for what, this time, felt like a genuine smile. Consider it returned in kind.
 
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I don't know what's more astounding: the insight within this post, or the fact it flies so far above peoples heads they can't even reply. Aspiring Soul I wanted to say your comments are part of what motivated me to join here, and some of us are listening.

Good to 'meet' you my bruh and welcome. I ignored your post thinking you were another sock account or newb prob dissing me.
The whole incarnation theme is one that I began to appreciate after reading the baghvad gita. It's what I mean about being able to appreciate a topic in one scripture by reading another.
The Sufis call it the "ocean in a drop" but it is more like the tree and seed analogy.
There's a rumi quote where he said something like

To the theologian it appears man is the microcosm
But to the theosophist (in the English translation this was the word used to imply a wise seeker rather than the new age movement) man is the macrocosm.

He went on to explain that were it not for desire of the fruit, the gardener would not have planted the seed. So in reality the fruit being the true cause is the macrocosm and the tree is the microcosm eg that the universe was made for us.

However as grand as that all sounds
Im in bed watching tyboxingTv channel on Youtube.
 
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JoChris

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I'm not an athiest, and neither is Vytas, so this ignorant and appauling comment made by you right here (3) is not only both offensive and very rude, but also very defaming of character. Perhaps you should read your own comment, JoChris and then go and carefully consider yourself for some time. While you are at it, learning some polite manners would not be a bad idea either, and I would highly recommend it. Before you allow rude comments like this to put too many people off from Christianity altogether. Seriously. Please think carefully about this, and who it is that such remarks are really serving. Peace be upon you, bible student.
Where were you or Vytas called an atheist? You severely misunderstood what I typed. Look at Serveto's response. He could tell it was a friendly dig in the ribs!

Politeness has its own time and place. If you read the Book of Proverbs you will see that truth is what is important. http://www.biblestudy.org/bible-study-by-topic/proverbs/truth-versus-lies.html

However I will try to be less blunt when communicating with you for your sake. * peace*
 
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JoChris

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So Islam worships a different God than the Israelites and Christ Jesus himself worshiped? Your ignorance knows no bounds.
Calling people ignorant is no defence. You made no attempt to disprove what was said. That is a very common tactic of a Muslim - you should be able to find a better strategy than that.

The bible says that Jesus is God. https://www.gotquestions.org/divinity-of-Christ.html
The Quran says that Jesus is a mere prophet. Therefore Allah is not the Christian God. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/670-islam-christians-same-god

The two religions are completely incompatible.
 
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