"The muslim trinity"

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Oral accounts may have truth, nobody can verify that. They are biographical narratives ABOUT Jesus' life, but not directly the revelation or teaching from Jesus himself. Learn to read.
Matthew Mark Luke and John are known to have common sources, there is scholarship on this. You can't pin it on Islam.

You say that Matthew Mark Luke and John are literally the revelation itself, we find such a position categorically absurd and worthy of ridicule (as many other non-Christians likewise would, from a mere reading of the text). These are only anonymous biographical texts that write of his life, nothing more or less.
so because its written down its untrue, got it!
 
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I already answered this in another thread...i guess you chose to read what i had to say, but ignore it..because willfull ignorance is something you people excel at.


@seekinheart
(6) O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)


it doesnt merely say 'a messenger' but also His Word.

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.
(سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #73)


these are the only verses mentioning the trinity directly. They dont include mention of Mary as a deity in the context of the trinitarian doctrine.



HOWEVER..there certainly were christians worshipping Mary. Yuo guys admit that yourself, about Catholics.

See it's like this
the holy spirit, is connected to Sophia/wisdom which in turn is linked to Mary
this is a christian belief

In the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, the feminine personification of divine wisdom as Holy Wisdom (Ἁγία Σοφία Hagía Sophía) can refer either to Jesus Christ the Word of God (as in the dedication of the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople) or to the Holy Spirit.

the sophia and mary connection, is retold all over
eg

hence why the Quran says
116.And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
no mention of the trinity here.


once again christians trying to lie about what islam says to justify their third rate trashy opinions.




it is even worse that you look to DAVID WOOD as some authority.
 
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so because its written down its untrue, got it!
WTF are you on about?

As stated, the Gospel is something Jesus taught (even John the Baptist allegedly taught it according to Luke 3:18).
The Gospel Jesus taught wasn't a group of contradictory biographical narratives written ABOUT him.

What about that are you not capable of comprehending?

Matt/Mark/Luke/John: "And Jesus taught the gospel"
Seekinheart: "Matt/Mark/Luke/John are actually the Gospel, yeah, they're wrong"

MIRACLE OF REINTERPRETATION!
 
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so because its written down its untrue, got it!
the actual GOSPEL is what Jesus spoke.
the 4 gospel ACCOUNTS are not 'THE Gospel' they are just accounts..
Jesus said 'preach THIS GOSPEL to the world' and that was before these gospel accounts were written. So back then the gospel was oral.

That doesn't mean islam rejects the Gospels...the Quran supports them.

however
Jesus: i don't know when the last hour is, only God knows.
You: YOU DONT KNOW THE FUTURE, SO YOU MUST BE GOD.

Jesus: i can't do anything on my own, it is the Father doing it through me.
You: YOU CANT DO ANYTHING, THEREFORE YOU MUST BE GOD.

Still...the gospels accounts contradict themselves.
 
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WTF are you on about?

As stated, the Gospel is something Jesus taught (even John the Baptist allegedly taught it according to Luke 3:18).
The Gospel Jesus taught wasn't a group of contradictory biographical narratives written ABOUT him.

What about that are you not capable of comprehending?

Matt/Mark/Luke/John: "And Jesus taught the gospel"
Seekinheart: "Matt/Mark/Luke/John are actually the Gospel, yeah, that's right"
MIRACLE OF REINTERPRETATION!
what you are saying makes 0 sense. So what muhammad taught was written down not what he said, u have the wrong qu'ran....

u see how stupid that sounds!?
 

Ninja

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Christians shooting themselves in the foot yet again, clearly your not equipped with the intelligence or reason to debate with the topic of Islam. Stick to your stories of visions and dreams where there is little logic.
 
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Christians shooting themselves in the foot yet again, clearly your not equipped with the intelligence or reason to debate with the topic of Islam. Stick to your stories of visions and dreams where there is little logic.
It's what you get when you use David Wood as a source :D

I feel unfortunately sorry for them though because they actively oppose the use of the intellect in their approach to religion. For them, the intellect hinders faith and is a 'worldly' thing.
Such thinking is cult mentality, how many times have I had the following verse quoted at me?


"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."
(Colossians 2:8)


Literally as a response to pressing doctrinal and historical questions :rolleyes:
 
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what you are saying makes 0 sense. So what muhammad taught was written down not what he said, u have the wrong qu'ran....

u see how stupid that sounds!?
Divine revelation through the mouth of a prophet, written down directly, word for word. That's the Quran.
The gospel accounts were written after Jesus and contradict themselves, they are not from actual witnesses, they are passed down.
What Jesus spoke directly IS the true Gospel. What is written is only an echo, it isnt even close to the real thing.

that doesnt mean islam rejects them per se, but it just means christians have no right to talk about the Gospel as 'the verbatim WORD OF GOD'.

The Quran is, the Gospel isn't.
 
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Divine revelation through the mouth of a prophet, written down directly, word for word. That's the Quran.
The gospel accounts were written after Jesus and contradict themselves, they are not from actual witnesses, they are passed down.
What Jesus spoke directly IS the true Gospel. What is written is only an echo, it isnt even close to the real thing.

that doesnt mean islam rejects them per se, but it just means christians have no right to talk about the Gospel as 'the verbatim WORD OF GOD'.

The Quran is, the Gospel isn't.
according to who? i dont believe that, u see where this reasoning goes?
 
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Lol, the logic of Christians:

And God said....Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
(from Luke 1)

 
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Lol, the logic of Christians:

And God said....Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
(from Luke 1)


looks like this one got underneath ur skin, unlucky.
 
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looks like this one got underneath ur skin, unlucky.
Matter of fact, I see very clearly how far all of this is out of your depth. I just wish you were humble enough to use your intellect and analysis what your own texts say before being so judgmentally arrogant towards us. You're insulting yourself more than you are insulting us.

 
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U keep posting that unlike myself u refused to refute the argument I dont have to keep posting it over and over! Ur answer was Jesus said the gospel, but what was written down was different. LOL, But theres no evidence other than Qu'Ran of what Jesus actually taught, assuming that is your measure of truth! Haha! LAUGHABLE.
 

A Freeman

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Use some logic:

  1. God revealed the gospel (singular, 'injeel' in arabic) to Jesus himself, which Jesus taught (according to not only the Qur'an but your books themselves)
Yep. As recorded in the Gospel of Jesus, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas.

Your books are biographies about Jesus' life, not revelations given to Jesus to his people.
Anyone who has ever read and studied the Gospel of Jesus knows that is untrue. The references to the life of Jesus were brief and offered merely as historical framework, leading up to the crucifixion. ALL of which provided vital evidence of prophecy being fulfilled.

The overwhelming majority of the Gospel accounts contain His Teachings, both by word and by example, as He is THE Example for everyone to follow (hence the emphasis on Jesus and His Teachings in the Quran).

That's why people need to get rid of their religious superstitions, like the 3=1 Babylonian/Roman nonsensical deity, and the fabricated Talmud and Hadith.

Yet your conclusion is to say (which is a non-sequitur fallacy, and disproved by the above) that it confirms your books (which are merely 4 of over 70 biographies nonetheless). Where is your head, dude?
Except the books of the Old Covenant and New Covenant are NOT "biographies". The Law (the first five books GIVEN to Moses, as confirmed in the Quran) contains the Criterion by which we are to discern between right and wrong, using God's Statutes, Judgments and Commandments to provide everyone with true justice and true freedom. The rest of the Old Covenant provides everyone with a historical example of how Israel was blessed when they kept The Law and how they were punished/cursed when they didn't.

And the Gospel confirms The Law, adding a spiritual dimension to it (that we are spiritual-Beings NOT the human-animals we live inside of).

Also, and very importantly, roughly two-thirds of the Old Covenant and New Covenant are PROPHECY, >99% of which has already been fulfilled in exact and minute detail, leaving no doubt of their Divine Origin. While the Quran confirms both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, it contains NO NEW PROPHECIES. All of the prophecies ended with the book of Revelation.

Even the notion of God sending another prophet in your conclusion makes no sense but I get that it's a polemic sense of self-validation you want, where there is none. God sends revelation and prophets for a reason, and God is known even in your own books for lambasting previous generations for their deviancy, their distortion of the message, for idolatry, for a lot of things.
Idolatry (LIES), in every form, has been condemned to encourage everyone to love and seek the truth in all matters.
 
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U keep posting that unlike myself u refused to refute the argument I dont have to keep posting it over and over! Ur answer was Jesus said the gospel, but what was written down was different. LOL, But theres no evidence other than Qu'Ran of what Jesus actually taught, assuming that is your measure of truth! Haha! LAUGHABLE.
You're stuck in perpetual circular reasoning.

Matt/Mark/Luke/John: "And Jesus taught the gospel"
Seekinheart: "Matt/Mark/Luke/John (about Jesus) are actually the Gospel now, so yeah"
MIRACLE OF REINTERPRETATION!


You claim something that not only the Qur'an, but your books themselves disagree with. IDK why it is so hard for you to get that through your head.

Your claim is based off a redefinition of what the Gospel is. With the evidence put in front of you, you are clueless. Not merely that but deliberate in your avoidance of even defending yourself within such a redefined use of this word. Yet, like always you will project it onto others as a means of scapegoating the issue.
 
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You're stuck in perpetual circular reasoning.

Matt/Mark/Luke/John: "And Jesus taught the gospel"
Seekinheart: "Matt/Mark/Luke/John (about Jesus) are actually the Gospel now, so yeah"
MIRACLE OF REINTERPRETATION!


You claim something that not only the Qur'an, but your books themselves disagree with. IDK why it is so hard for you to get that through your head.

Your claim is based off a redefinition of what the Gospel is. With the evidence put in front of you, you are clueless. Not merely that but deliberate in your avoidance of even defending yourself within such a redefined use of this world. Yet, like always you will project it onto as as a means of scapegoating the issue.
You're stuck in perpetual circular reasoning.

Matt/Mark/Luke/John: "And Jesus taught the gospel"
Seekinheart: "Matt/Mark/Luke/John (about Jesus) are actually the Gospel now, so yeah"
MIRACLE OF REINTERPRETATION!


You claim something that not only the Qur'an, but your books themselves disagree with. IDK why it is so hard for you to get that through your head.

Your claim is based off a redefinition of what the Gospel is. With the evidence put in front of you, you are clueless. Not merely that but deliberate in your avoidance of even defending yourself within such a redefined use of this world. Yet, like always you will project it onto as as a means of scapegoating the issue.
Im not going into semantics about the gospel, the gospel was what Jesus taught sure, the best reference we have to this is the GOSPELS of mark luke matt and john, not the Qu'Ran. Your Qu'Ran endorses everything Jesus says in the gospel then? u admit that?
 
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Im not going into semantics about the gospel
But that is literally what the argument is over. The Qur'an as it defines it, does not speak of the Gospel as biographies, but the revelation and teachings of the historical Jesus.
Your books corroborate on this.

the gospel was what Jesus taught sure
Good, you're starting to get somewhere at snail pace.

the best reference we have to this is the GOSPELS of mark luke matt and john
They're not "Gospels", they're biographies - and liturgical (hence written with theological undertones) in their practical use in the period they were written.
The only "Gospel" (both as referred to by your books and by the Qur'an) is that 'Gospel' that these books themselves speak about Jesus having taught.

Your Qu'Ran endorses everything Jesus says in the gospel then?
The Qur'an confirms that Jesus was a prophet who was given revelation, the teaching referred to by the Qur'an as "The Gospel" (singular). As already shown in this post: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-muslim-trinity.7534/post-301827

And as notably clarified in Surah 5:46:
"And We sent after them in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel) in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil)."
 
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