"The muslim trinity"

[Artful Revealer]

Show us how both a video game and the player of the game are equally real?

Equally real? Are you equally real to God, if God exists?

 

[Resistor]

Equally real? Are you equally real to God, if God exists?

I am created but I am real.

Depends on your theology. Most religions have different answers to this.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I am created but I am real.

Depends on your theology. Most religions have different answers to this.

Different theologies are irrelevant to this analogy.

The in-game character would also be real for those other in-game characters.

Are you equally real to God if God exists?

 

[Resistor]

Different theologies are irrelevant to this analogy.

You asked me: "Equally real? Are you equally real to God, if God exists?"

Different theologies are totally essential to answer that unless you specified your answer to being "Are you equally real to my trinitarian Marcionite conception of God, if my trinitarian Marcionite conception of God exists?"

 

[Artful Revealer]

You asked me: "Equally real? Are you equally real to God, if God exists?"

Different theologies are totally essential to answer that unless you specified your answer to being "Are you equally real to my trinitarian Marcionite conception of God, if my trinitarian Marcionite conception of God exists?"

If you don't realize you're obfuscating and deflecting, you shouldn't be playing this game.

This analogy is entirely separate from specific theologies.

You asked me to show how both an in-game character and the player are equally real, which according to the identity of relations turns into the question: show me how both a human and God are equally real?

The analogy is about the possibility of a hypostatic union of two natures. You're trying to deflect from it.

 

[Resistor]

If you don't realize you're obfuscating and deflecting, you shouldn't be playing this game.

This analogy is entirely separate from specific theologies.

You asked me to show how both an in-game character and the player are equally real, which according to the identity of relations turns into the question: show me how both a human and God are equally real?

The analogy is about the possibility of a hypostatic union of two natures. You're trying to deflect from it.

What am I deflecting from?

You are making claims (of your beliefs, here in 'hypostatic union') and using analogies from those claims. An analogy isn't proof that your claims are true, it's just an analogy; and the analogies you've used so far are very terrible, as I've already shown.
I cannot "deflect" when I am not the one making the claims, I am seeing flaws in your arguments and replying to them.

 

[Artful Revealer]

What am I deflecting from?

You are making claims (of your beliefs, here in 'hypostatic union') and using analogies from those claims. An analogy isn't proof that your claims are true, it's just an analogy; and the analogies you've used so far are very terrible, as I've already shown.
I cannot "deflect" when I am not the one making the claims, I am seeing flaws in your arguments and replying to them.

Ok, so you say that when an in-game character is being controlled by a human, he moves in the way the human makes him move, he spreads the words the human types on his keyboard, or he speaks the words the human voices through a microphone, etc, he still doesn't have a human nature?

 

[Kung Fu]

It's better to do a bit at a time, no problem.

I'll answer each objection individually:
Every man God created is 100% human. Every character you create is 100% digital. Agreed?

Agreed.

You could then say that a human is to God what a digital character is to a human. Agreed?

Therefore, if a digital character can be "controlled" by a human, a human could be "controlled" by God. Agreed?

Agreed. But Jesus was uncreated and was always in existence with God. The digital character began to exist at a specific point in time.

Do you not believe in free will then? Because if you don't well that opens up other issues with this whole analogy.

Therefore, when a digital character is being controlled by a human, he has a digital nature as well as a human nature. Similarly, when a human is being controlled by God, he has a human nature as well as a divine nature. Agreed?

How could a digital creation be digital and human at the same time? This seems like something an atheist would argue in regards to robots. Definitely not something I would hear from a Christian. It goes back to the chair. I can create a digital character and it's me but yet if I create a chair it's not me. Both are not real but yet one is me while the other isn't.

Are you saying that Jesus was divine because he was controlled by God meaning you and or I are not divine because God does not control us?

IF a human is controlled by God, he would have a human nature and a divine nature. It is in the human nature to die, not in the divine nature. Therefore, a human controlled by God can have a divine nature and still die, because he has a human nature.

The digital character by itself would not know everything. It is the human creator who controls him who knows everything (about the universe the digital character is in). So too would the human by itself not know everything. It is God who controls him who knows everything (about the universe the human is in).

Any digital character you create can come back to life if you, being the creator, make it so. Any human God creates can come back to life if God, being the Creator, makes it so.

The digital character you control is you. And when you control him, a human nature is added to his digital nature. The human nature of that digital character refers to your human nature, therefore the digital character is you.

When you control a digital character, it is your will who chooses. You may choose a character whose will you single out as being the best among digital characters. So while many digital characters could have the free will to choose to do your will, it is eventually you who elects the character. So too was Jesus elected:

Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

But Jesus was also, God and God does not die. It's not logically possible for him to be considered "God" and human if all he has are human qualities. Just as the digital character can't be human because he doesn't have human qualities in the sense of a soul, free will, and the ability to think and know their own existence.

I'm not denying that Jesus was someone special and your verse proves that but it doesn't prove he's God or God's literal son. God, from an Islamic point of view, with was please with many humans and Jesus was just one among them.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Agreed. But Jesus was uncreated and was always in existence with God. The digital character began to exist at a specific point in time.

The heavenly Son (the Word) always existed too. He was created from our perspective, when He received a body, in our universe at a certain point in time because time from our perspective is linear.

So to would your in-game character be created in the game from the perspective of other characters, when he receives a "body", but that doesn't mean your word came into existence at that time either. Your word already existed.

Do you not believe in free will then? Because if you don't well that opens up other issues with this whole analogy.

Free will definitely exists.

But if Jesus says: For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me, then that implies there's another will in Jesus that supersedes Jesus' own will, just like your will would supersede the will of your in-game avatar.

How could a digital creation be digital and human at the same time?

You could try to answer the last question I've given Resistor:

When an in-game character is being controlled by a human, he moves in the way the human makes him move, he spreads the words the human types on his keyboard, or he speaks the words the human voices through a microphone, etc, he still doesn't have a human nature?

You can't say this in-game character only has a digital nature when it is controlled by a human, because it is speaking the voice of a human, or displaying the words of a human, and is moving according to the humans input. All these things do not come from his digital nature when it is a human that controls it.

It goes back to the chair. I can create a digital character and it's me but yet if I create a chair it's not me. Both are not real but yet one is me while the other isn't.

The digital character is only you if you incarnate that character. If you were able to incarnate the chair, than that would the same. But you can't. You can however, incarnate a character in a video game.

Are you saying that Jesus was divine because he was controlled by God meaning you and or I are not divine because God does not control us?

Yes. The non-playable characters act on the artificial intelligence and free will you've coded into them. The character you control acts on your intelligence and your will.

But Jesus was also, God and God does not die.

Your in-game avatar that you control could also die if he runs out of hitpoints. That doesn't mean you, the game creator, die. And you can easily bring him back to life, since you're the creator of the game.

It's not logically possible for him to be considered "God" and human if all he has are human qualities. Just as the digital character can't be human because he doesn't have human qualities in the sense of a soul, free will, and the ability to think and know their own existence.

Jesus has all the human qualities of other humans (he's 100% human), just like your in-game character has all the same qualities as other in-game characters (he's 100% digital), but they are both more. Your in-game character is more than the others because you are the one manifesting through it (with your actions and words) and not through the other in-game characters.

I'm not denying that Jesus was someone special and your verse proves that but it doesn't prove he's God or God's literal son.

The verse doesn't prove he is God. That's correct. It was to illustrate the point that you as the game creator choose the character that you are going to control, and that it's not the character who chooses whether it would become controlled by you.

The Father-Son relationship is not to be taken literally the way we see the father-son relationship in the natural world. Your in-game character isn't your literal son either, even though you begot him.

 

[Resistor]

The game player is the game creator in the analogy.

Then by your analogy, we are equally as much God as Jesus is (some kind of Pantheism), but Jesus is just arbitrarily more important for no apparent reason.

 

[AspiringSoul]

In sufi islam they describe the Primordial Water/Ocean, the Macrocosm...and the drop, the microcosm.
Every individual being in the universe is a microcosmic drop from the ocean...and returns to the ocean.
The ocean is the 'Word of Allah'..and in it's pre-causal state it is eternal in that Allah's knowledge is eternally existing, hence all things existing in the knowledge of Allah are also eternally existing with Him.

Along with that, there's a special idea...'the ocean in a drop'. It is the same idea of the incarnation itself..
and if you're Christian, you ought to ask yourself where the idea of the INCARNATION even came from..because it certainly was not a term used anywhere else in the old testament. It originated from India. Christians need to give respect to the wider themes that link to other religions/mythologies and accept that the metaphysical reality is one and the same for all humans. We may have different interpretations and terms, but the underlying metaphysical reality is the same.

Most christians just read their scripture and interpret what they want from it. A smart person would go back and study the themes from various ancient perspectives and even study them in islam/sufism and advaita vedanta.
The problem with most christians is they really do get cocky and think they are divinely guided by the holy spirit. There's no other group on earth with such confidence. Whilst muslims say 'Allah knows best' the christians say 'i already know, the holy spirit already told me'
and if you question them further, they just derp the living hell out of their answer...proving they have very little understanding.
Then you wonder why muslims keep bringing it up with you. How can they not? you're trying to attack islam whilst you project nothing but your own ignorance onto the Quran.

So far in this thread, no one found a single verse that presents a false interpretation of the christian trinity. So what did you do? you moved the goalposts and tried to talk about the Logos theme in the Quran and even then you guys got it all wrong.
the Quran rejects the term 'trinity', the Quran says "say not Allah is three".

For the last 2000 years, the vast majority of Christians have not been educated enough to even study their scripture. All they knew was there are 3 gods and Jesus is one of them. Literally that is ALL they believed.
So christianity blatantly failed as a religion, it completely lost track of the deeper explanations of the topic.
When i brought up St Augustine to christians on here, they just blanked it and pretended he is someone irrelevant. Without st Augustine's book "on the Trinity" they would be NO trinitarian doctrine/Athanasian creed. HE inspired the creed through his book. St Augustine was influenced largely by Plotinus...that is, he was a neo-platonic philosopher.
So now you have to go back to study the ideas Plotinus taught...his version of the 3. What was it?
The One
The emanation

the emanation btw was both on the macrocosmic/universal level and the microcosmic/individual level...so here you have the 2 eg the Son and the holy spirit.

Plotinus was educated in Persia on these themes. Persia is really the home of sufi islam too..really these themes exist all over sufi islam.
They've evolved differently in sufi islam, but clearly in a far superior way to the madhouse of christian catholicism which wiped out every other sect and opinion.
The irony is that the protestants today claim catholicism is satanic..yet they fail to see that the same sect gave them the trinitarian doctrine.

The basic truth is that logically speaking, the Logos is not God. The logos is 'with God'.
It is only in the mystical sense that a seeker of God sees God Immanent in all things through the Logos.
Hence John 1:1 reveals both the logical (left brain) view and the mystical (right brain) view.

Here's the crux of this matter from islam
the logical truth correlates with Fiqh (the law/rules of religion) which deals with the external/objective aspect of religion.
the mystical truth correlates with Tasawuff (the mystical) which deals with the internal/subjective aspect of religion.

Imam Malik (r) said, "Whoever studies jurisprudence [fiqh] and didn't study Sufism (tasawwuf) will be corrupted; and whoever studied tasawwuf and didn't study fiqh will become a heretic; and whoever combined both will be reach the Truth."

this PERFECTLY explains John 1:1
so for me, the new testament is OUR scripture more than it is yours. Islam explains things far better and doesn't rely on delusional/arrogant claims of having the holy spirit.

I mean even if you read John 16, Jesus spoke about the holy spirit 'revealing all the truth' by 'speaking only what he hears' which literally means Divine Revelation itself. Followed by 'he will tell you all that is to come' which is literally prophecy. Such a thing could only come from a person..ie Mohammad.

So you have the Logos/Word/Son, the Macrocosmic level which reveals itself through Jesus,
Then you have the Holy Spirit, the Microcosmic level, which reveals itself through Mohammad.

The macrocosm and microcosm complete each other. Just as Jesus came as a 'light for gentiles' and the completion of the jewish religion, it enabled a new era for gentiles that then correlated perfectly with islam and with Mohammad.

If you look at the life of Mohammad, he had the period in Mecca and then the migration and period in Madina. In Mecca he was passive, in Madina he was active.
This reveals the suffering servant archetype and the davidic conquerer archetype. Yet Mohammad was not the messiah.
He was paving the way for Jesus to return. Hence much of prophecy in islam is heavily focused on the second coming of Jesus. There are lengthy hadiths on this topic that describe it far more than any part of the bible inc the book of Revelation (im very in tune with biblical prophecy, i wouldnt make this claim if it wasnt true, there is no part of the bible with as much detail on the second coming of Jesus, as the hadith).

This also connects with another theme in the bible.

pay special attention here
Isaiah 40
A voice of one calling: "In the wilderness prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

look at how this is worded...
and compare it to the wayJohn the Baptist interpreted it

John 1:23
John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'"

these are very different.
Isaiah 40 points literally to the wilderness and the straight way, preparing the way. This points directly to islam via Mohammad, literally in the wilderness (which throughout the OT was the desert of paran where ishmael lived...ie Mecca).

John the Baptist's version is not false though...it isn't one vs the other..it is just that there are 2 periods of Jesus, the before the ascension and after the descent.

Jesus came to 'fulfill the law' yet the law was only for israelites/jews..and even then when he came, he only came to jews, not the lost tribes. So in truth, he hasn't really fulfilled the law yet has he? he's done it for jews only.
So it stands to reason that there had to be a period for the gentiles to also live under the law and hence for Jesus to come, to fulfill it.

Hence
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7) (Book #55, Hadith #658)

just like when Jesus came to jews and judged them by their own law, by their own standards, muslims will receive the same type of judgement.

Christians really don't like the idea of a law for all people/gentiles and jew alike..because they think "we are saved and already righteous by faith...the idea of living under the law/of the flesh, is a step backwards"

Paul argued
"the partriarchs (ie Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc) were living under FAITH, they were righteous before the law (of Moses) came"
YET God saw fit to reveal the law of Moses. WHY?

2 reasons
-the israelites lost the true belief when they were in Egypt
-the law reveals the depth of sin, God wanted sin to be known so He could reveal His Mercy/Grace.

this is only on a larger scale because of islam...in fact islam came only after the Christians had been romanised and were following this false doctrine.
it amazes me that christians dont use their brain here...they dont really understand their own book, seriously. Delve deeper into paul's arguments and you find more justification for islam (as per the points im making here) at a later point.

 

[A Freeman]

The heavenly Son (the Word) always existed too. He was created from our perspective, when He received a body, in our universe at a certain point in time because time from our perspective is linear.

The Father-Son relationship between Father (THE ONE TRUE GOD - the "I AM") is EXACTLY as it is stated in Scripture: Father CREATED His Sons, BEGINNING with His Firstborn Son, the Anointed One (Messiah/Christ/Mahdi). Anyone who denies the Father-Son relationship between Father and Christ is ANTI-CHRIST, by definition (1 John 2:22-23).

Father is a SPIRIT-BEING (John 4:24), and ALL of His Sons are likewise SPIRIT-BEINGS. God can NEVER be human (Num. 23:19), nor can God have a human son (Sura 4:171).

There is ZERO Scriptural support for the pagan trinity, which is exactly where the ludicrous idea comes from that the Father and Son have coexisted since the beginning, as if God would actually use those terms if they didn't mean exactly what they say.

We have the following Scriptures, among HUNDREDS of verses, which make it crystal clear that Christ is a CREATED BEING. In fact, He is the FIRSTBORN SON and heir to the throne (the Great Prince - Dan. 12:1).

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:12-15
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into The Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood (while He was here in the body of Jesus), [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image (likeness) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the community of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness (Christ), the beginning of the creation of God;

Unless someone redefines what the words "image", "born", "firstborn", "creature", "creation", "Father", "Son", "Brethren", "Invisible", "beginning", and "inheritance" mean, it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe that Christ is somehow not a created Being and God's Eldest/Firstborn Son, unless of course one completely disregards Scripture and makes up their own paradigm (e.g. the pagan 3=1 false deity).

There are 3 passages that those who have been conned into believing the delusion of a 3=1 FAKE deity routinely quote, and two of them have been obviously doctored by the Roman Catholic church (Matt. 28:19 and 1 John 5:6-8), and one which has been very badly or intentionally mistranslated (Php. 2:6). How can we be 100% certain of these facts? Because the original manuscripts do not contain the trinitarian verbiage in the first two, and the last one is so badly mistranslated it not only contradicts itself in context, but contradicts statements directly from Christ as recorded in the Gospel account according to John.

Which leaves only ridiculous (self-contradictory) misinterpretations of both John 1:1 and John 8:58 (KJV), which would require the reader to ignore the correct tense to arrive at the erroneous conclusion that either verse is a claim that Jesus is/was God.

The Father-Son relationship is not to be taken literally the way we see the father-son relationship in the natural world.

So you think God is the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)? Do you honestly not realize just how anti-Christ that statement really is?

1 John 2:22-23
2:22 Who is a LIAR but he that denieth that the Christ was incarnated in Jesus? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast SENT.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.

References in the Gospels to Christ being sent by God (52):-

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37

Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6

Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13

John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

Sura 4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-

Sura 4:171-172
4:171. O People of The Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on Earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
4:172. Christ commandeth YE to serve and worship God, so do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who scorn His worship and are arrogant,- He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Christ, the Spirit-Being and Firstborn Son of God, COMMANDS readers of both the Bible and the Quran alike to worship God (Father) ONLY. Shouldn't we do exactly as we are COMMANDED to do by One Who has been GIVEN Authority by God (Matt. 23:10) rather than believe what idiots and barbarians say about a God they do not know and most certainly do not worship?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Then by your analogy, we are equally as much God as Jesus is (some kind of Pantheism), but Jesus is just arbitrarily more important for no apparent reason.

I’ve asked you a direct question. Answer that one first before I continue with you.

 

[Artful Revealer]

The Father-Son relationship between Father (THE ONE TRUE GOD - the "I AM") is EXACTLY as it is stated in Scripture: Father CREATED His Sons, BEGINNING with His Firstborn Son, the Anointed One (Messiah/Christ/Mahdi). Anyone who denies the Father-Son relationship between Father and Christ is ANTI-CHRIST, by definition (1 John 2:22-23).

Father is a SPIRIT-BEING (John 4:24), and ALL of His Sons are likewise SPIRIT-BEINGS. God can NEVER be human (Num. 23:19), nor can God have a human son (Sura 4:171).

There is ZERO Scriptural support for the pagan trinity, which is exactly where the ludicrous idea comes from that the Father and Son have coexisted, as if God would actually use those terms if they didn't mean exactly what they say.

We have the following Scriptures, among HUNDREDS of verses, which make it crystal clear that Christ is a CREATED BEING. In fact, He is the FIRSTBORN SON and heir to the throne (the Great Prince - Dan. 12:1).

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:12-15
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into The Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood (while He was here in the body of Jesus), [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image (likeness) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the community of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness (Christ), the beginning of the creation of God;

Unless someone redefines what the words "image", "born", "firstborn", "creature", "creation", "Father", "Son", "Brethren", "Invisible", "beginning", and "inheritance" mean, it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe that Christ is somehow not a created Being and God's Eldest/Firstborn Son, unless of course one completely disregards Scripture and makes up their own paradigm (e.g. the pagan 3=1 false deity).

There are 3 passages that those who have been conned into believing the delusion of a 3=1 FAKE deity routinely quote, and two of them have been obviously doctored by the Roman Catholic church (Matt. 28:19 and 1 John 5:6-8), and one which has been very badly or intentionally mistranslated (Php. 2:6). How can we be 100% certain of these facts? Because the original manuscripts do not contain the trinitarian verbiage in the first two, and the last one is so badly mistranslated it not only contradicts itself in context, but contradicts statements directly from Christ as recorded in the Gospel account according to John.

Which leaves only ridiculous (self-contradictory) misinterpretations of both John 1:1 and John 8:58 (KJV), which would require the reader to ignore the correct tense to arrive at the erroneous conclusion that either verse is a claim that Jesus is/was God.


So you think God is the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)? Do you honestly not realize just how anti-Christ that statement really is?

1 John 2:22-23
2:22 Who is a LIAR but he that denieth that the Christ was incarnated in Jesus? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast SENT.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.

References in the Gospels to Christ being sent by God (52):-

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37

Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6

Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13

John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

Sura 4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-

Sura 4:171-172
4:171. O People of The Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on Earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
4:172. Christ commandeth YE to serve and worship God, so do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who scorn His worship and are arrogant,- He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Christ, the Spirit-Being and Firstborn Son of God, COMMANDS readers of both the Bible and the Quran alike to worship God (Father) ONLY. Shouldn't we do exactly as we are COMMANDED to do by One Who has been GIVEN Authority by God (Matt. 23:10) rather than believe what idiots and barbarians say about a God they do not know and most certainly do not worship?

Was the Father ever not a father?

 

[A Freeman]

Was the Father ever not a father?

Of course. A father, by definition, MUST have offspring.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Of course. A father, by definition, MUST have offspring.

Offspring refers to living organisms. The Father and the Son are not organisms. The Son already existed prior to Creation.

 

[A Freeman]

Offspring refers to living organisms. The Father and the Son are not organisms. The Son already existed prior to Creation.

Then why are we told He (Christ, the Son OF God) was CREATED by Father (God)? Are you now claiming God lied? Or that He isn't alive?

What evidence is there for what you (falsely) claim?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Then why are we told He (Christ, the Son OF God) was CREATED by Father (God)? Are you now claiming God lied? Or that He isn't alive?

What evidence is there for what you (falsely) claim?

I think you’re in the camp with the burden of proof. Where does it say the Father created the Son?

 

[A Freeman]

I think you’re in the camp with the burden of proof. Where does it say the Father created the Son?

Christ, the CREATED Son OF God, the Firstborn of every creature.

There are NUMEROUS verses that tell us that Christ is, IN TRUTH, the FIRST of all CREATED Beings, i.e. MADE by God, giving Christ the position of preeminence over the other angels (Christ's BRETHREN), as would be expected for the FIRSTBORN.

Romans 8:28-29
8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [His] purpose.
8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren.

Colossians 1:12-18
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature:

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING of the creation OF God;

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know ASSUREDLY, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who by God is MADE unto us Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Sanctification, and Redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] through us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
5:21 For He hath MADE him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

Romans 8:14-17
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the (adopted) sons of God.
8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (Being), that we (our Beings) are the children of God:
8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ*; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath APPOINTED heir** of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express IMAGE of His person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

**Noe: Someone cannot be the heir of their own estate. According to Father's Law, the FIRSTBORN SON receives a double-portion relative to his brethren as the primary heir to the dad's estate, being considered the beginning of the dad's strength (Deut. 21:17). All the firstborn belong to Father (Num. 3:13), beginning with His Christ (Rev. 3:14), The One God Anointed (Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38), The Firstborn Son OF God (Col. 1:15), and Heir to The Kingdom OF God (Heb. 1:2), making Christ The Great Prince (Dan. 10:21, Dan. 12:1). The firstborn son of the king is heir to the kingdom (2 Chronicles 21:1-3), and is referred to as the prince.

Hebrews 2:9-11
2:9 But we see the Saviour, who was MADE a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to MAKE the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN,

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be MADE like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 5:5-11
5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be MADE The High Priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art My Son, to day have I incarnated thee.
5:6 As He saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being MADE perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called BY God an High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, MADE The High Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:15-17
7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
7:16 Who is MADE, not after The Law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless Life.
7:17 For He testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an High Priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and MADE higher than the heavens;

References to Christ Being an Angel…

CHRIST'S Revelation to his Apostle John

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Christ Jesus, which God gave unto him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified [it] by His angel unto His servant John:

Revelation 10:1-3
10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a "Cloud": and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the "sea", and [his] left [foot] on the "earth",
10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth (2 Esd. 12:31, Rev. 5:5): and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was Lightened with his glory (Matt. 24:27; Luke 17:24).

And also exactly which (Arch)angel Christ is (known in heaven as PRINCE Michael).

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand (Matt. 21:44).

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, the first of the chief princes [of God], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth: and [there is] NONE that holdeth with me in these things, EXCEPT Michael your prince (Eno. 67:1; Rev. 5:3; 5; 9 & 12:7).

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of Life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

The firstborn son of the king is heir to the Kingdom (2 Chronicles 21:1-3), just as Christ—the Firstborn Son of God—is Heir to the Kingdom of God

born (definition)
(bôrn)
v.
A past participle of bear
adj.

1.
a. Brought into life by birth.
b. Brought into existence; CREATED: A new nation was born with the revolution.

Source: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/born

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Don't worry if you cannot find any references in Scripture that plainly state that Christ isn't a created Being, because there are NONE.

 

[seekinheart]