The Moment You Realise It All Makes No Sense.

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When you think about the current climate, of DEATH. Who on earth can believe in God.

God has abandoned his creation from the get-go, please lets not come with any of this, seperation from God, etc. Murder on a mass scale is becoming, just a run of the mill thing, War, corruption, Perversion. Where is God? nowhere to be seen, If this was a human everyone would say he was a dead beat dad. He would gain emnity from his offspring til there dying day.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I just noticed your post and as the subject had cropped up elsewhere, here is the gist of my reply...

Try to see things from God's point of view. How might he answer the question of 'fairness' is that a popular argument against God - "why does He allow all the suffering in the world?"...

The closing chapters of the Bible show what him 'putting his foot down' will look like. Perhaps the next "anti-God" question on the prophetic clock will be "why does he have the right to rule it"!

The book of Revelation sadly records the fact that in the closing days of the "old management" many will continue to shake their little fists at God till their last breath!

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/so-september-23.1213/page-8#post-55738
 
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He is a silent partner. I dont care what he allows. If God is real, where is he intervening, why are we born into an illusion of a secular reality, what kind of sick joke is he playing? The human mind cant understand it, Ok I will build man with intrinsic tendencies, that he must discover, he is to ignore completely in order to believe me! God is an enigma, and certainly not personal. Why would we not shake our fists at God? Let me ask you this then, if man made a utopian society outside of God, would God not allow it? If man treat each other perfectly but God wasnt involved, would God come along and say, im taking my ball back your not playing anymore. If God wants to be so involved in mans life and receive his worship why doesnt he make his presence more known on the earth.

Ask yourself this question,
Why is it for Adam and Eves sin, the whole of mankind was punished, yet if my father murdered someone, I would receive no punishment infact it would be unjust for me to receive any consequence at all. Gods moral barometer, with all humility does not seem to be equal to ours.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@seekinheart

"If man treat each other perfectly but God wasn't involved, would God come
along and say, i'm taking my ball back your not playing anymore."

I think this idea is the essence of Communism. It is for you cast your eye back over the last century to decide if this is a good system when fully realised, or a good idea ruined by man's sinful nature...

The Venus Project is perhaps a clear statement of this 'good without God' world view, but if the Bible is to believed, this experiment in 666 (man raised to the highest power) will have a miserable end!
 
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But if that is predestined why allow it to happen?, I know you dont really have the answers because no one does, Ive watched alot of theologians try to answer the question of why God "allows" suffering. I just find that a world, where morality is not dictated by obscure concepts we dont quite understand under, the my ways are not your ways, and even with science these days and the depth of the universe that morality comes down to this is bad this is good, because I say so, the nuances of morality arent as simple. So I dont know anyway.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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But if that is predestined why allow it to happen?, I know you dont really have the answers because no one does, Ive watched alot of theologians try to answer the question of why God "allows" suffering. I just find that a world, where morality is not dictated by obscure concepts we dont quite understand under, the my ways are not your ways, and even with science these days and the depth of the universe that morality comes down to this is bad this is good, because I say so, the nuances of morality arent as simple. So I dont know anyway.
Does the inability to provide a complete answer with the information we have at hand preclude a greater reality of full information where the answers are plain to see?

Asserting a negative is a troublesome enterprise...
 

Camidria

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I recently watched The Shack, and whilst there are some doctrinal issues that I have with the film, the way it handled the questions you are asking @seekinheart will help you understand the answers a lot better. I encourage you to watch it... Perhaps it might help.

I've seen God intervening in so many instances in my life as well as the lives of the friends and family around me, I can tell you about so many miracles. I've realised in my journey with my Abba Father, that when we ask like children do their parents, sometimes He says no without giving an answer why because we might not understand, and many times He actually says yes and I see the miracles in my health, my life, my friends' lives.

Regardless to say there is no way I cannot believe, God has truly and lovingly shaped my life and done so much for me. My question is, do we actually ask Him like children to intervene, and if He doesn't, do we trust Him?

When your biggest pain in your live is cut away, don't you think that something that was rooted so deep inside your heart, when it is in the process of being removed, that it will not hurt? Of course it will!!! But if you let it happen and God closes the wounds after He has removed it - you will experience a true sense of freedom, happiness and joy unspeakable.

I have had this in my own life, and your next question is why did God allow this deep root in your heart? Maybe you allowed it? The devil came with a small lie and you took it long ago, every time he repeated the lie you believed it until it became lodged in your heart and you even spoke it over your own life, then people started speaking it into your life. It grew and grew. Finally you decided to ask God your Father to deal with it, and now it hurts when He is removing it, it hurts so much that you doubt Him and you would rather believe new lies about God than allow Him to heal your heart.

The process of shaping us will hurt, because of many many different reasons, but if you push through holding God's hand, crying in His lap, the moment He has helped you and shaped the roughest edges you have, in that moment you will be ready to fully understand the reasons why, and fully understand all the questions that are making you doubt Him.

I pray this will help you....

Peace!
 
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He is a silent partner. I dont care what he allows. If God is real, where is he intervening, why are we born into an illusion of a secular reality, what kind of sick joke is he playing? The human mind cant understand it, Ok I will build man with intrinsic tendencies, that he must discover, he is to ignore completely in order to believe me! God is an enigma, and certainly not personal. Why would we not shake our fists at God? Let me ask you this then, if man made a utopian society outside of God, would God not allow it? If man treat each other perfectly but God wasnt involved, would God come along and say, im taking my ball back your not playing anymore. If God wants to be so involved in mans life and receive his worship why doesnt he make his presence more known on the earth.

Ask yourself this question,
Why is it for Adam and Eves sin, the whole of mankind was punished, yet if my father murdered someone, I would receive no punishment infact it would be unjust for me to receive any consequence at all. Gods moral barometer, with all humility does not seem to be equal to ours.
You are referring to the Christian concept of God. In Islam, the whole of mankind was not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve. Almighty God says:

If you disbelieve - indeed, Allah is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you about what you used to do. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."


May God guide you to truth and put yout heart at ease.
 

Skywa1ker

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@seekinheart
So from what I gather, you would like God to be a genie? You want him to grant all of your wishes along with the wishes of everyone else, and for what? For us to just keep selfishly asking for more? See, this doesn't make sense. God gave us all free will to do as we please. Adam and Eve were persuaded into eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden, but they knew full well what would happen if they ate it. And they chose to anyway. So, I wouldn't say we're being directly punished for Adam and Eves sin, but they set into motion the world we live in now. They're sin effects us today. Just like if someone were to kill someone else, their sin effects other people, inadvertently or not. Satan is the 'god' of this world right now, and yes we're seeing the results of that. But God sent us his son Jesus, he died on the cross for our sins and offers us a way to Heaven. The world is playing out this way for a purpose, but Jesus is coming back and he's going to set everything right, though in the meantime satan is having his hay day. It's heart wrenching to see this happening in the world, but Gods ways are not our own, and he has a purpose. So I'll keep trusting him, knowing that in the end it will all be ok. I don't know if what I said makes any sense, but I tried and I hope you can see what I'm saying.
 

JoChris

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He is a silent partner. I dont care what he allows. If God is real, where is he intervening, why are we born into an illusion of a secular reality, what kind of sick joke is he playing? The human mind cant understand it, Ok I will build man with intrinsic tendencies, that he must discover, he is to ignore completely in order to believe me! God is an enigma, and certainly not personal. Why would we not shake our fists at God? Let me ask you this then, if man made a utopian society outside of God, would God not allow it? If man treat each other perfectly but God wasnt involved, would God come along and say, im taking my ball back your not playing anymore. If God wants to be so involved in mans life and receive his worship why doesnt he make his presence more known on the earth.

Ask yourself this question,
Why is it for Adam and Eves sin, the whole of mankind was punished, yet if my father murdered someone, I would receive no punishment infact it would be unjust for me to receive any consequence at all. Gods moral barometer, with all humility does not seem to be equal to ours.
God is not a silent partner. God saw all the suffering and sin in the world and sent His Son Jesus into the world as a living sacrifice for us.
All the suffering you may personally experience is nothing compared to what Jesus did.
You also forget how you are viewing the world through human eyes e.g. what you believe are minor personal mistakes in yourself/other people are in fact major sins in God's eyes.

Just because there are not major miracles happening before your eyes does not mean that God does not exist. God uses ordinary things in people's everyday lives in a marvellous way.
Some things a person will never know about until they reach Heaven.

E.g. spontaneous decision to call a friend (save their life), take a different driving route to work (avoid car crash), call in sick to work (avoid workplace tragedy).
 
Last edited:

Karlysymon

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grateful servant said:
In Islam, the whole of mankind was not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve.
Why do we all die?
seekinheart said:
Why is it for Adam and Eves sin, the whole of mankind was punished,
Since man acquires physical scars; mental and emotional scars, it would stand to reason that his spiritual self cannot escape scathes because we live in an imperfect world. And if that is the case,then i would argue that since a physical or emotional deficiency demands a physical/emotional
remedy, certainly a spiritual deficiency demands a spiritual remedy. And that is something he cannot provide himself just as food doesn't grow in his
body. He has to reach out to the Source of that remedy to attain healing for his spiritual self. If
man can faint from want of food, then it is possible for him to spiritually faint from want of spiritual food. And i believe that Adam and Eve's decision in the garden was more like pulling the plug from the Source. Indeed, God had said they will surely die. Not in the sense that
He will mercilessly kill them but that all creation cannot self- create/self-sustain. A decay of
sorts was set into motion and it encompassed all man's aspects, which naturally was passed
onto posterity. To choose
independence from the source of life means only one thing.....death.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Why do we all die?

Since man acquires physical scars; mental and emotional scars, it would stand to reason that his spiritual self cannot escape scathes because we live in an imperfect world. And if that is the case,then i would argue that since a physical or emotional deficiency demands a physical/emotional
remedy, certainly a spiritual deficiency demands a spiritual remedy. And that is something he cannot provide himself just as food doesn't grow in his
body. He has to reach out to the Source of that remedy to attain healing for his spiritual self. If
man can faint from want of food, then it is possible for him to spiritually faint from want of spiritual food. And i believe that Adam and Eve's decision in the garden was more like pulling the plug from the Source. Indeed, God had said they will surely die. Not in the sense that
He will mercilessly kill them but that all creation cannot self- create/self-sustain. A decay of
sorts was set into motion and it encompassed all man's aspects, which naturally was passed
onto posterity. To choose
independence from the source of life means only one thing.....death.
Very clearly put! Thanks @Karlysymon
 

Illuminized

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When you think about the current climate, of DEATH. Who on earth can believe in God.

God has abandoned his creation from the get-go, please lets not come with any of this, seperation from God, etc. Murder on a mass scale is becoming, just a run of the mill thing, War, corruption, Perversion. Where is God? nowhere to be seen, If this was a human everyone would say he was a dead beat dad. He would gain emnity from his offspring til there dying day.
The Jewish-Christian conception of god has been calculated - from it's conception - to produce a profound indifference towards religion and ennoblement. It is merely a preparation for bestiality. In the end, the Jewish-Christian religion is an excess injection of speculations.

Certainly the ancient world held some conception of providential, active, animated cosmic beings, not merely an impersonal fate. The ancients (i.e. Pre-Socratic, Neo-Platonist, Stoic) secured for themselves a balanced worldview, not repudiating the existence of gods, but not bowdlerizing the concept either. To them, god was regarded as the highest ideal which had to be placed out of reach from the sophists. Never mind what their later interpreters (i.e. Aristotle, Cicero) had to say on their writings, read it straight from the source.

Xenophanes
Yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of the gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their several kinds.
Chrysippus
If we saw a handsome mansion, we should infer that it was built for its masters and not for mice; so therefore we must deem the world to be the mansion of the gods.

Cosmic beings certainly exist, but none of them are as primitive as Jahwe. The loving god of the NT is said to behave like the wrathful god of the OT, this has long been the curse of Christianity, a double-edged sword. If the "gnostics" really were a reaction to this irreconcilable contradiction, then they too erred greatly by labeling all of material existence as inherently evil and distorting the Platonist concept of the Demiurge by transforming him into Jahwe, which still affirmed the existence of the Jewish god (he does not exist). It should be obvious that this was only one of many dissident gnostic sects and that this is a deplorable worldview more perverse than Christianity itself.

Islam, although it is also a Jewish sect, contains traces of nobility, much like the few authentic words of Jesus. This can be seen in the title "Lord of the Worlds", which occurs in the very first chapter of the Quran. This clearly implies the existence of other worlds, which was long denied by our Christian sects. Whereas Judeo-Christianity declares "In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth" (Genesis 1:1). He is called the "Lord of heaven and earth". Do you not see how impious this is? It amounts to "there's a general heaven (the sky) and then there's this earth only." The Islamic title is infinitely more reverential. It must be asked why Adolf Hitler employed in his speeches. Because he was a pantheist, not a Christian as the Alt-Right would have you believe.

Genesis 1:2, on the other hand, affirms the Platonist concept of an already existing world, shaped by the Demiurge. Emperor Julian had this to say in his essay: "In all this, you observe, Moses does not say that the deep was created by God, or the darkness or the waters... It follows that, according to Moses, God is the creator of nothing that is incorporeal, but is only the disposer of matter that already existed. For the words, "And the earth was invisible and without form" can only mean that he regards the wet and dry substance as the original matter and that he introduces God as the disposer of this matter." Bruno said similarly.
 
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When you think about the current climate, of DEATH. Who on earth can believe in God.

God has abandoned his creation from the get-go, please lets not come with any of this, seperation from God, etc. Murder on a mass scale is becoming, just a run of the mill thing, War, corruption, Perversion. Where is God? nowhere to be seen, If this was a human everyone would say he was a dead beat dad. He would gain emnity from his offspring til there dying day.
If humanity has rejected God (it has), then why would humanity be mad that God has rejected them?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The polarisation of views here remind me of a (fairly) good natured discussion between my wife and daughter on the merit of mushrooms...

ButtonMushroom-fb.jpg
My daughter hates them and despite having never tried one confidently tells me that they taste like soil! On the other hand, my wife adores them and would include them with most meals!!!

The mushroom remains unchanged, neither better for my wife's support or less for my daughter's disdain...
 

Alanantic

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My thoughts exactly! ...but, y'know...with Death comes Life. We're given the ability to focus on one or the other.
 
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