The Messianic expectations of Rabbinic Jews

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You said this:



Do you make different, conflicting, statements about the contents of the Bible, depending on what thread you’re posting on?
You're intentionally misquoting me.

I said this:

Read the Old Testament without your already fully-formed opinions and tell me if you see any expected messiahs. Your result will be nill, null, zilch, nada, zero, no, none, nothing.
You will only find large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.

Look in the Talmud though, Messiah predictions rampant everywhere.
What you're attempting to make me have said is clearly not what I'm saying. If I didn't make it clearer, that isolated sentence you're so fixated on means "rather than any explicit mentions of messiahs anywhere in the New Testament there is the larger tendency to see passages promoting the supremacy of the Israelites"

You're trying to make, through misquoting, my post to say that "the Old Testament only ever speaks flowers and candy about the Israelites".
 






Thunderian

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You're intentionally misquoting me.

I said this:



What you're attempting to make me have said is clearly not what I'm saying. If I didn't make it clearer, that isolated sentence you're so fixated on means "rather than any explicit mentions of messiahs anywhere in the New Testament there is the larger tendency to see passages promoting the supremacy of the Israelites"

You're trying to make, through misquoting, my post to say that "the Old Testament only ever speaks flowers and candy about the Israelites".
Sorry, I’m confused. When you said, and I quote you directly here, “You will only find large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel,” where exactly did you mean we would find these large passages, if not in the Bible?

The discussion was about the Torah, you told us to “read the Old Testament” to see proof of the point you were making, but now you’re trying to say you were referring to the New Testament in that one sentence in your post about Jewish supremacy? How were we supposed to know that?

Your statement could only be interpreted, under the circumstances, as meaning that we will find no mention of any messiah in the Old Testament, but will only find “large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.”
 






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but now you’re trying to say you were referring to the New Testament in that one sentence in your post about Jewish supremacy?
No, the Old Testament, I don't know where you got that from, I never mentioned the New Testament.

Your statement could only be interpreted, under the circumstances, as meaning that we will find no mention of any messiah in the Old Testament, but will only find “large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.”
Correct. E.g. Isaiah 53, Proverbs 30:4, etc.

Christians like yourself don't seem to get that you use passages that are about the Israelites completely out of context and claim they're about Jesus when they're clearly about the Israelites. Period.

But Jesus does not matter here, the thread is about the vague concept of a messiah itself (largely between Judaism and Christianity). Which is clearly lacking from the Old Testament entirely. This was not a position I held until I decided to revisit the Old Testament and found myself rather surprised.

The "messiah" is a Talmudic and New Testament concept, not an Old Testament concept. If you accept the New Testament, you have to inadvertently and clearly indirectly accept the Talmud on the basis of it being prophetic and explicit about the messianic concept.
This is where the Christian cognitive dissonance comes in.

There are many resources you could use to learn about the evolution of the messianic concept though, if you reject the Talmud you could draw up your own hypothesis of how the idea got into Judaism and what the role of Christianity is with claiming to fulfill such a concept which is absent from the Old Testament.
 






Thunderian

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I never mentioned the New Testament.
It was a pretty big part of your explanation of what you meant when you said we’d find only Jewish supremacist doctrine in the Bible.

If I didn't make it clearer, that isolated sentence you're so fixated on means "rather than any explicit mentions of messiahs anywhere in the New Testament there is the larger tendency to see passages promoting the supremacy of the Israelites"
What am I supposed to think you were trying to say, because what you’re saying isn’t making any sense.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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No, the Old Testament, I don't know where you got that from, I never mentioned the New Testament.



Correct. E.g. Isaiah 53, Proverbs 30:4, etc.

Christians like yourself don't seem to get that you use passages that are about the Israelites completely out of context and claim they're about Jesus when they're clearly about the Israelites. Period.

But Jesus does not matter here, the thread is about the vague concept of a messiah itself (largely between Judaism and Christianity). Which is clearly lacking from the Old Testament entirely. This was not a position I held until I decided to revisit the Old Testament and found myself rather surprised.

The "messiah" is a Talmudic and New Testament concept, not an Old Testament concept. If you accept the New Testament, you have to inadvertently and clearly indirectly accept the Talmud on the basis of it being prophetic and explicit about the messianic concept.
This is where the Christian cognitive dissonance comes in.

There are many resources you could use to learn about the evolution of the messianic concept though, if you reject the Talmud you could draw up your own hypothesis of how the idea got into Judaism and what the role of Christianity is with claiming to fulfill such a concept which is absent from the Old Testament.
So you would assert that there are no references whatsoever to the concept of the Messiah in the Torah? Is that your position?
 






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It was a pretty big part of your explanation of what you meant when you said we’d find only Jewish supremacist doctrine in the Bible.
I looked at the post and see it was a typo. I wrote "new" when I meant "old". It's because I just woke up recently, no big deal.

I usually wrote "Tanakh" though when I mean to refer to the "Old Testament".
 






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So you would assert that there are no references whatsoever to the concept of the Messiah in the Torah? Is that your position?
Correct, if by "torah" you mean old testament (Tanakh). Then yes, iIt is a Talmud concept (Talmud is oral torah), the New Testament assumes familiarity with the Talmud, but evokes certain vague passages of Isaiah to attempt to support it's claims. The Talmud bases it's arguments around prophetic aspects of the old testament but the concept (messiah) itself is entirely a Talmud concept, if we are to consider the Talmud as somehow 'separate' from the old testament (Tanakh)
Most Christians live their lives without any care in the world toward this and never even read a page of the Talmud, so I'm not really suprised.
 






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The general idea though is that the Israelites (turned Jews as we approach the common era) had run out of prophets, so the idea of a future leader in the vain of the great patriarchs like Moses, David and Solomon, would come and establish an age of peace and harmony for the Jews. This is in the Talmud, not Old Testament (Tanakh).
Christianity basically latches onto the anticipation around this and claims Jesus (who turns up at the beginning of the common era) to be not only the fulfillment of this Talmudic concept, but even "God" itself (despite that going against everything the Prophets before him stood for, the Abrahamic faith being very opposed to idolatry and all...), further more despite the gruesome death of the alleged 'messiah', a subversion takes places where the death itself becomes the very justification of a new religion.

Not saying Judaism or Christianity are correct or false here, just saying you really need to rethink your approach to stuff because you miss so many important things and shamelessly try to provide eisegesis' in places where it is very much not welcome or relevant.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Correct, if by "torah" you mean old testament (Tanakh). Then yes, iIt is a Talmud concept (Talmud is oral torah), the New Testament assumes familiarity with the Talmud, but evokes certain vague passages of Isaiah to attempt to support it's claims. The Talmud bases it's arguments around prophetic aspects of the old testament but the concept (messiah) itself is entirely a Talmud concept, if we are to consider the Talmud as somehow 'separate' from the old testament (Tanakh)
Most Christians live their lives without any care in the world toward this and never even read a page of the Talmud, so I'm not really suprised.
OK, Torah only pointers to Jesus below - sorry I have no time to type it all out but I’m at the gym and look like a slacker if I spend all my time typing away I’m the phone ;-)

 






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OK, Torah only pointers to Jesus below - sorry I have no time to type it all out but I’m at the gym and look like a slacker if I spend all my time typing away I’m the phone ;-)

I find parallels interesting between anything when I see them, but this video (which I've almost finished now) doesn't prophecy any messiah anywhere, all of it's examples are simply parallels and 'poetical' similarities between events in the Pentateuch and the depiction of Jesus in matt mark luke and john.

Interesting? of course, but messianic? absolutely not.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I find parallels interesting between anything when I see them, but this video (which I've almost finished now) doesn't prophecy any messiah anywhere, all of it's examples are simply parallels and 'poetical' similarities between events in the Pentateuch and the depiction of Jesus in matt mark luke and john.

Interesting? of course, but messianic? absolutely not.
Have you considered that prophecy may be specifically designed to be understood properly in the rear-view mirror?

Given that the satanic as well as the angelic realm would be aware of the words themselves, do you think the events of the gospels would have played out as they did if Satan felt he was scripted to take a particular course of action?
 






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Have you considered that prophecy may be specifically designed to be understood properly in the rear-view mirror?
No, your video only mentions one prophecy (of Moses in Deuteronomy stating that there would be a Prophet like him who would have the words of God, which is definitely not Jesus), nothing else in your video is Prophecy, it's all parallel and 'poetical' similarities, as I mentioned.

As for your question, I don't think you would accept such a notion in any case of any other religion, would you? and the common argument against such a notion in every other religion is that the writers were inspired by earlier works and formed their depiction of a story with those earlier works in mind.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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No, your video only mentions one prophecy (of Moses in Deuteronomy stating that there would be a Prophet like him who would have the words of God, which is definitely not Jesus), nothing else in your video is Prophecy, it's all parallel and 'poetical' similarities, as I mentioned.

As for your question, I don't think you would accept such a notion in any case of any other religion, would you? and the common argument against such a notion in every other religion is that the writers were inspired by earlier works and formed their depiction of a story with those earlier works in mind.
Well. There are some unfulfilled prophecies which look on the verge of fulfilment right now @Infinityloop - perhaps for those who live to see them, they too will become sharp and clear in retrospect. May the Lord bless you in your search for truth.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I wondered whether there might be a (potentially) interesting connection between the prophecies three failures for Israel to form a government and the three times that Baalam’s donkey stalled.

The Word of Promise® NKJV Audio Bible

Numbers 22:22-38

22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road.
24 Then the Angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side.
25 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she pushed herself against the wall and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall; so he struck her again.
26 Then the Angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam’s anger was aroused, and he struck the donkey with his staff.
28 Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
29 And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!”
30 So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?” And he said, “No.”
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face.
32 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me.
33 The donkey saw Me and turned aside from Me these three times. If she had not turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live.”
34 And Balaam said to the Angel of the LORD, “I have sinned, for I did not know You stood in the way against me. Now therefore, if it displeases You, I will turn back.”
35 Then the Angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but only the word that I speak to you, that you shall speak.” So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
36 Now when Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the city of Moab, which is on the border at the Arnon, the boundary of the territory.
37 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not earnestly send to you, calling for you? Why did you not come to me? Am I not able to honor you?”
38 And Balaam said to Balak, “Look, I have come to you! Now, have I any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that I must speak.”
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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I wondered whether there might be a (potentially) interesting connection between the prophecies three failures for Israel to form a government and the three times that Baalam’s donkey stalled.

The Word of Promise® NKJV Audio Bible

Numbers 22:22-38

22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road.
24 Then the Angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side.
25 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she pushed herself against the wall and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall; so he struck her again.
26 Then the Angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam’s anger was aroused, and he struck the donkey with his staff.
28 Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
29 And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!”
30 So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?” And he said, “No.”
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face.
32 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me.
33 The donkey saw Me and turned aside from Me these three times. If she had not turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live.”
34 And Balaam said to the Angel of the LORD, “I have sinned, for I did not know You stood in the way against me. Now therefore, if it displeases You, I will turn back.”
35 Then the Angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but only the word that I speak to you, that you shall speak.” So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
36 Now when Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the city of Moab, which is on the border at the Arnon, the boundary of the territory.
37 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not earnestly send to you, calling for you? Why did you not come to me? Am I not able to honor you?”
38 And Balaam said to Balak, “Look, I have come to you! Now, have I any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that I must speak.”
The story appears to continue. An unprecedented third collapse in the Israeli government (echoing the potentially prophetic words given to the Rabbi)...


I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
 






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