The Messianic expectations of Rabbinic Jews

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Back to anachronism. :rolleyes:

Whether you realize it or not (you probably don't), you're now speaking about the NEW Testament of Christianity which is a different subject to the Old Testament (Tanakh).

That's shifty of you.

The New Testament is to the old testament what the Talmud is, particularly with this subject.
For you the New Testament is your basis, not the Old Testament. You treat the old testament as simply supportive cushioning for the New Testament.

You don't seem to be able to grasp how silly you're being when contrasted with your opposition to the Talmud. Making arbitrary claims about Jesus is as useless as making Talmud claims to a Christian.

The problem here, again, is that you're evading the subject. The Old Testament has no Messiah. The Talmud and the New Testament however, do have their own pervasive conflicting views on the matter.
 






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I must be a special case then - there are lots of pointers to Jesus in the OT without the help of the Talmud...

Shifty again. We're not speaking about Jesus, we are speaking about the Messiah and the lack thereof in the Old Testament. You have a fundamental epistemic problem here that you are gleefully trying to ignore. The more you ignore it, the worse it gets.
You're back to your old eisegesis.
Don't you ever learn from your mistakes Red?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Infinityloop

Would you conclude that all Bible prophecy is by definition anachronistic?

It would seem that a particular tendency of would lead to this claim....

John 14

29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

P.s. Just in case you were in any doubt that the notion of a God who reveals prophecy about future events is some kind of retrospective eisegesis, consider these words from Isaiah 46:-

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 






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@Infinityloop

Would you conclude that all Bible prophecy is by definition anachronistic?

It would seem that a particular tendency of would lead to this claim....

John 14

29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

P.s. Just in case you were in any doubt that the notion of a God who reveals prophecy about future events is some kind of retrospective eisegesis, consider these words from Isaiah 46:-

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
No.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Proverbs 30:4
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
 






Thunderian

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You will only find large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.
You’ll also find large passages listing their despicable sin, their unfaithfulness to God, and the curses they’ve heaped upon themselves because of it.

Anyone who thinks the Bible is a paean to Jewish supremacy hasn’t read much of it.
 






Yahda

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Proverbs 30:4
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1- When Israel was a boy, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Jeremiah 31:9- They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
 






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You’ll also find large passages listing their despicable sin, their unfaithfulness to God, and the curses they’ve heaped upon themselves because of it.

Anyone who thinks the Bible is a paean to Jewish supremacy hasn’t read much of it.
I never said otherwise, in fact I've said exactly what you've said (and quoted passages) before on other threads
 






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Proverbs 30:4
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Deuteronomy 4:22, there are many other verses just like it throughout the Old Testament. I mention this verse and chapter a lot but you still don't even acknowledge that it exists and is in your Bible.

Also the verse you quoted is not prophetic at all in nature. Also, Moses is traditionally agreed to have been the Prophet referred to have ascended to 'heaven' (it's a motif common with all true Prophets)
Yahweh is who is referred to in this passage as having "established the ends of the earth"
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Infinityloop and @Yahda ...

I think it’s interesting that this particular thread has deviated from it’s initial intention to explore present Rabbinic messianic hopes to a retrospective look at whether Jesus was the Messiah or not. Of course, the Jewish expectation was that a Messiah would eventually come, and we now have a couple of templates - Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David, separating out the suffering and the ruling into two different characters it seems.

There are plenty of threads on the evaluation of whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Messianic criteria or not, in fact I started one a while back of the “Rabbi who found Messiah”, but this one might be best focussing on the assumption that the Jews as a whole presently make, that the Messiah is yet to come and who he might turn out to be.

Literature throughout the ages is replete with stories of mysterious and enigmatic kings, cryptic characters whose rule is often full of uncertain sorrows, yet strangely hopeful. Aragorn, the ranger-turned-ruler in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Ringstrilogy is one example. There were those who believed in Aragorn’s right to the throne from the very beginning and others who refused to submit to his rule until the very end, when he proved himself in battle. For much of the series, his true identity is cloaked in mystery. Is he a gallant king, or an honorable man, or both?

Throughout history, human imagination has been captivated by such figures, and for good reason. Sometimes imagination hints at the greater reality.

The Bible presents us with a mysterious king as well. Some of the most seemingly enigmatic, yet detailed, descriptions of this king occur in the prophetic book of Zechariah, written over 2,500 years ago. Over the centuries, various attempts have been made to explain this kingly figure. Some have concluded that he is the long-awaited Messiah. Others say we can’t know anything about him for sure. Still others say he is the carpenter from Nazareth about whom the whole world wonders.


From a Christian perspective, their logic might be entirely flawed, but from the perspective of the rest of the world, the person the Rabbinic Jews do accept as meeting these criteria will be a real person of interest.
 






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Yahda

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@Infinityloop and @Yahda ...

I think it’s interesting that this particular thread has deviated from it’s initial intention to explore present Rabbinic messianic hopes to a retrospective look at whether Jesus was the Messiah or not. Of course, the Jewish expectation was that a Messiah would eventually come, and we now have a couple of templates - Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David, separating out the suffering and the ruling into two different characters it seems.

There are plenty of threads on the evaluation of whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Messianic criteria or not, in fact I started one a while back of the “Rabbi who found Messiah”, but this one might be best focussing on the assumption that the Jews as a whole presently make, that the Messiah is yet to come and who he might turn out to be.

Literature throughout the ages is replete with stories of mysterious and enigmatic kings, cryptic characters whose rule is often full of uncertain sorrows, yet strangely hopeful. Aragorn, the ranger-turned-ruler in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Ringstrilogy is one example. There were those who believed in Aragorn’s right to the throne from the very beginning and others who refused to submit to his rule until the very end, when he proved himself in battle. For much of the series, his true identity is cloaked in mystery. Is he a gallant king, or an honorable man, or both?

Throughout history, human imagination has been captivated by such figures, and for good reason. Sometimes imagination hints at the greater reality.

The Bible presents us with a mysterious king as well. Some of the most seemingly enigmatic, yet detailed, descriptions of this king occur in the prophetic book of Zechariah, written over 2,500 years ago. Over the centuries, various attempts have been made to explain this kingly figure. Some have concluded that he is the long-awaited Messiah. Others say we can’t know anything about him for sure. Still others say he is the carpenter from Nazareth about whom the whole world wonders.


From a Christian perspective, their logic might be entirely flawed, but from the perspective of the rest of the world, the person the Jews do accept as meeting these criteria will be a real person of interest.
What is your definition of a messiah, if you don’t mind me asking ?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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What is your definition of a messiah, if you don’t mind me asking ?
I think you can work on the assumption that mine might be “traditional mainstream” Christian one e.g:-

Question: "What does Messiah mean?"
Answer: Messiah comes from the Hebrew word mashiach and means “anointed one” or “chosen one.” The Greek equivalent is the word Christos or, in English, Christ. The name “Jesus Christ” is the same as “Jesus the Messiah.” In biblical times, anointing someone with oil was a sign that God was consecrating or setting apart that person for a particular role. Thus, an “anointed one” was someone with a special, God-ordained purpose.​
In the Old Testament, people were anointed for the positions of prophet, priest, and king. God told Elijah to anoint Elisha to succeed him as Israel’s prophet (1 Kings 19:16). Aaron was anointed as the first high priest of Israel (Leviticus 8:12). Samuel anointed both Saul and David as kings of Israel (1 Samuel 10:1; 16:13). All of these men held “anointed” positions. But the Old Testament predicted a coming Deliverer, chosen by God to redeem Israel (Isaiah 42:1; 61:1–3). This Deliverer the Jews called the Messiah.​
Jesus of Nazareth was and is the prophesied Messiah (Luke 4:17–21; John 4:25–26). Throughout the New Testament, we see proof that Jesus is the Chosen One: “These [miracles] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). We also hear testimonies that Jesus is “the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16). The ultimate evidence that Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the Anointed One, is His resurrection from the dead. Acts 10:39–43 is an eyewitness testimony to His resurrection and the fact that “he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.”​
Jesus fulfills the role of Prophet, Priest, and King, which is further evidence to His being the Messiah. He is a prophet, because He embodied and preached the Word of God (see John 1:1–18; 14:24; and Luke 24:19); a priest, because His death atones for our sins and reconciles us to the Father (see Hebrews 2:17; 4:14); and a king, because after His resurrection God gave all authority to Him (see John 18:36; Ephesians 1:20–23; and Revelation 19:16).​
The Jews of Jesus’ day expected the Messiah to redeem Israel by overthrowing the rule of the Romans and establishing an earthly kingdom (see Acts 1:6). It wasn’t until after Jesus’ resurrection that His disciples finally began to understand what the prophecies in the Old Testament really meant the Messiah would do (see Luke 24:25–27). The Messiah was “anointed” first to deliver His people spiritually; that is, to redeem them from sin (John 8:31–36). He accomplished this salvation through His death and resurrection (John 12:32; John 3:16). Later, Jesus the Messiah will deliver His people from their physical enemies, when He sets up His Kingdom on the earth (see Isaiah 9:1–7).​

The question I have for you @Yahda comes in two parts - do you think that the Torah and Tanach point to a Messiah? If so, what will be their identity and mission?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Was Netanyahu-Gantz impasse predicted in mystic's hidden manuscript?

Sephardic Kabbalist (mystic) Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri could have predicted the political unrest surrounding recent struggles by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Blue and White leader Benny Gantz, according to a report by the Hebrew daily Israel Hayom on Sunday.

Information alluding to Kaduri's predictions spread throughout social media and on the messaging application Whatsapp in recent days, as well.

Kaduri reportedly wrote in And He Swore to Isaac, a "hidden book" that was recently found in the Kabbalistic school of Nahalat Yitzhak, that "On the eve of the year 5780 (the upcoming Hebrew year), the year of corrections, there will not be a government in Israel for an extended period and the various camps will be quarrel much without a decision on either side, and then, on Rosh Hashana (the Jewish new year) itself, they will fight in heaven, the holy side against the side of evil, and G-d and His entourage will decide between them. And this is all I can say, and from here I swore not to reveal more secrets and hidden things."

The book was purportedly written by Kaduri in his youth and hidden by him.

The statements by Kaduri also reference excerpts from the ancient book The Covenant of the Persimmon by kabbalist Rabbi Sasson Hai Shoshani, who Kaduri said was known as "The prophet of Egypt." Shoshani said, "There will come on the day that two ministers win the government in the land of Israel. Both their names will be Benjamin and neither of them will succeed in establishing their government or kingship.
"On that day, know and understand that the King Messiah already stands at the doorway and on the Sabbath afterwards he will come and be revealed," Shoshani's statement continues. "Understand this and remember it.'"

Moshe N., an aide to Kaduri's grandson and the current head of Nahalat Yitzhak, Rabbi Yosef Kaduri, told Israel Hayom that, "The yeshiva has all sorts of manuscripts by Rabbi Kaduri with the names of G-d and similar things, that we are keeping in a safe. These are things that are passed from generation to generation, in secret, only between the kabbalists and it is forbidden to reveal them.

"In writings based on the teachings of Rabbi Sasson Hai Shoshani, the redemption is discussed, and the writings also discuss that right before the coming of the messiah, they won't be able to form a government, so what was published is very close to what was written in the manuscripts, but the published wording is not exact.


P.s...

 






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Yahda

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@ Red Sky at Morning. Do I think the Torah points to a messiah ? No.

For instances, you noted Isaiah 42:1- Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom I have chosen ! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

If you go back to Isaiah 41:8 it says-
But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend”.

I pointed that out to say that you can’t cherry pick the Old Testament, the key to understanding it is “ precept upon precept”.

As far as a messiah I think people tend to think this day is more about saving when it’s more about destroying. There will be more destroying than saving. A REMNANT will be saved. Israel will be saved with an everlasting salvation(Isaiah 45:17). I’m just saying.

Who and what will be destroyed? Those who couldn’t and wouldn’t follow basic commandments.

God didn’t command we run out and find a messiah/savior. In fact he said:

Isaiah 43:11 I-I am God, and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 43:3- For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel YOUR SAVIOR

Hosea 13:4- I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you knew no God except me, and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR (messiah).

Isaiah 45:21......There is no other God but me. A righteous God and savior. There is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved...For I am God and there is NO ONE ELSE.

He goes on to say v23 To ME every knee will bow, and tongue will confess.

However over in Christian land you all have a savior, who some even claim is God, whom to every knee will bow etc etc...simply breaking the most important commandment. Thou shall have no other god.

Yes God anointed people, but they were His anointed. Not ours. David was His anointed. His beloved.

Is there a chosen one ? Yes. According to God it’s Jacob.

God spoke highly (& low) of certain people. Abraham, Jacob, David, Noah, Israel, Adam, Issac. He even referred to Israel as the apple of his eye. Even the serpent, Lucifer, and the devil got a mention...yet no acknowledgement by God of a savior son anywhere ? Well maybe if you squint a little, turn the book upside down, use your imagination, or assumptions...he did ?

I always like to end it with Deuteronomy 32:36-39. This is where God on “that day” will ask “ where are their gods? The rock in whom they sought refuge? Let them raise up and help you (I’ll wait)

v39 See now that I-I am HE and there are no gods apart from me. I kill & I make alive. NO ONE can SAVE you from my hand.”

With that being said. No I do not believe in a messiah besides the Lord my God. The least I can do is know that He is God, and that there is no one else. Actually it’s the most one can do.

Sorry guys. This is just my quarterly plea for those who have ears to hear. I’ll probably erase soon.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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@ Red Sky at Morning. Do I think the Torah points to a messiah ? No.

For instances, you noted Isaiah 42:1- Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom I have chosen ! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

If you go back to Isaiah 41:8 it says-
But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend”.

I pointed that out to say that you can’t cherry pick the Old Testament, the key to understanding it is “ precept upon precept”.

As far as a messiah I think people tend to think this day is more about saving when it’s more about destroying. There will be more destroying than saving. A REMNANT will be saved. Israel will be saved with an everlasting salvation(Isaiah 45:17). I’m just saying.

Who and what will be destroyed? Those who couldn’t and wouldn’t follow basic commandments.

God didn’t command we run out and find a messiah/savior. In fact he said:

Isaiah 43:11 I-I am God, and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 43:3- For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel YOUR SAVIOR

Hosea 13:4- I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you knew no God except me, and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR (messiah).

Isaiah 45:21......There is no other God but me. A righteous God and savior. There is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved...For I am God and there is NO ONE ELSE.

He goes on to say v23 To ME every knee will bow, and tongue will confess.

However over in Christian land you all have a savior, who some even claim is God, whom to every knee will bow etc etc...simply breaking the most important commandment. Thou shall have no other god.

Yes God anointed people, but they were His anointed. Not ours. David was His anointed. His beloved.

Is there a chosen one ? Yes. According to God it’s Jacob.

God spoke highly (& low) of certain people. Abraham, Jacob, David, Noah, Israel, Adam, Issac. He even referred to Israel as the apple of his eye. Even the serpent, Lucifer, and the devil got a mention...yet no acknowledgement by God of a savior son anywhere ? Well maybe if you squint a little, turn the book upside down, use your imagination, or assumptions...he did ?

I always like to end it with Deuteronomy 32:36-39. This is where God on “that day” will ask “ where are their gods? The rock in whom they sought refuge? Let them raise up and help you (I’ll wait)

v39 See now that I-I am HE and there are no gods apart from me. I kill & I make alive. NO ONE can SAVE you from my hand.”

With that being said. No I do not believe in a messiah besides the Lord my God. The least I can do is know that He is God, and that there is no one else. Actually it’s the most one can do.

Sorry guys. This is just my quarterly plea for those who have ears to hear. I’ll probably erase soon.
Well @Yahda - thanks for giving your perspective...

I would be interested in what you might make of a turn of events that led to the Israelis celebrating a particular individual as Messiah who leading Rabbis might come out in support of? What would you make of such a “Black Swan” event?
 






Yahda

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Well @Yahda - thanks for giving your perspective...

I would be interested in what you might make of a turn of events that led to the Israelis celebrating a particular individual as Messiah who leading Rabbis might come out in support of? What would you make of such a “Black Swan” event?
I think nothing of it. Nor do I think it has anything to do with the real people or nation of The Most High God.
 






Thunderian

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In this thread, no, because it's not the subject being discussed :rolleyes:
You said this:

Read the Old Testament ...
You will only find large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.
Do you make different, conflicting, statements about the contents of the Bible, depending on what thread you’re posting on?
 






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