The Messianic expectations of Rabbinic Jews

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
Under the two students of Gamaliel, Rabbi Saul of Tarsus and Rabbi Johanan Ben Zakai (Ribaz) the Jewish world divided in the first Century. The first group accepted Jesus as the Messiah who came and would return, the second joined the reconfigured religion of the Rabbis that came to be knowm

I am not a Jew, and neither do I think that Rabbinic Jews are on the right track. What I do keep an eye on is their understanding of the attributes and immanency of their Messiah.

John 5:43
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

For this reason, I was quite alarmed at some of the things I have come across recently...


 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
Why does this alarm you?
What an interesting question...

Why indeed should it alarm me? Perhaps it is a bit like the fact that some time, perhaps in the near future, England will no longer have a Queen and the coins will have the portrait of King Charles embossed on them. Everyone knows it will happen some day, but when it does, it will still surprise me!
 






elsbet

Star
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
4,659
Under the two students of Gamaliel, Rabbi Saul of Tarsus and Rabbi Johanan Ben Zakai (Ribaz) the Jewish world divided in the first Century. The first group accepted Jesus as the Messiah who came and would return, the second joined the reconfigured religion of the Rabbis that came to be knowm

I am not a Jew, and neither do I think that Rabbinic Jews are on the right track. What I do keep an eye on is their understanding of the attributes and immanency of their Messiah.

John 5:43
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

For this reason, I was quite alarmed at some of the things I have come across recently...


It is alarming, I agree-- quite an article!

The claims based on the Talmud & kabbalah (not the Torah) run counter to everything we know...


For nothing is hidden which will not become manifest, nor secret which shall not be known and come to light. LUKE 8:17
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
It is alarming, I agree-- quite an article!

The claims based on the Talmud & kabbalah (not the Torah) run counter to everything we know...


For nothing is hidden which will not become manifest, nor secret which shall not be known and come to light. LUKE 8:17
It looks like people are noticing a change in the air...

 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
20,352
What an interesting question...

Why indeed should it alarm me? Perhaps it is a bit like the fact that some time, perhaps in the near future, England will no longer have a Queen and the coins will have the portrait of King Charles embossed on them. Everyone knows it will happen some day, but when it does, it will still surprise me!
Sorry, I’m still unsure why you are alarmed by this.
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
20,352
I am alarmed for the sake of people who don’t realise @Lisa - I have a relative who lives in Jerusalem and he thinks life will go on as normal forever...
But what does this news have to do with anything? You think that because the water level has risen..that makes that rabbi right? I mean it was just a matter of time for him to be right wasn‘t it?
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
20,352
I have a relative who lives in Jerusalem and he thinks life will go on as normal forever...
His reaction is a last days reaction I’m afraid...
Matthew‬ ‭24:37-39‬ ‭
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
‭‭
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
His reaction is a last days reaction I’m afraid...
Matthew‬ ‭24:37-39‬ ‭
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
‭‭
It is indeed...
 






Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
20,352
It is indeed...
But we...aren’t supposed to worry and to pray without ceasing. Prayer is so important to Christians it is the means in which we are changed and see change. It is the power when we are weak to say now we are strong because we ask the actual power in the world..God to act on our behalf. Don’t stop praying for your relative!!

I was watching this yesterday and was really inspired because of it.

 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
But what does this news have to do with anything? You think that because the water level has risen..that makes that rabbi right? I mean it was just a matter of time for him to be right wasn‘t it?
That’s why I entitled the thread “Rabbinic expectations” rather than Christian expectations...
 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
2,379
It is alarming, I agree-- quite an article!

The claims based on the Talmud & kabbalah (not the Torah) run counter to everything we know...


For nothing is hidden which will not become manifest, nor secret which shall not be known and come to light. LUKE 8:17
Incorrect, without the Talmud there wouldn't be any messianic expectation in the first place.
No Talmud equals no Christianity.

Talmud literally is Torah as well. There is Written Torah (Penteteuch) and Oral Torah (Talmud) but are as important as each other. By extension, the whole Canon of Jewish sacred texts is also sometimes termed "Torah" as well.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
Incorrect, without the Talmud there wouldn't be any messianic expectation in the first place.
No Talmud equals no Christianity.

Talmud literally is Torah as well. There is Written Torah (Penteteuch) and Oral Torah (Talmud) but are as important as each other. By extension, the whole Canon of Jewish sacred texts is also sometimes termed "Torah" as well.
You cannot be serious - I have read the OT and there are many references, types and shadows of the messiah. Hint - Who Did Jesus refer to as pointing to Him?


Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

On the other hand, I see no need to add in Talmudic writings in order to form the view of a Messiah to come...

 






elsbet

Star
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
4,659
Incorrect, without the Talmud there wouldn't be any messianic expectation in the first place.
No Talmud equals no Christianity.

Talmud literally is Torah as well. There is Written Torah (Penteteuch) and Oral Torah (Talmud) but are as important as each other. By extension, the whole Canon of Jewish sacred texts is also sometimes termed "Torah" as well.
In your opinion, anyway.
 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
2,379
In your opinion, anyway.
Read the Old Testament without your already fully-formed opinions and tell me if you see any expected messiahs. Your result will be nill, null, zilch, nada, zero, no, none, nothing.
You will only find large passages promoting the supremacy of Israel.

Look in the Talmud though, Messiah predictions rampant everywhere.
 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
2,379
You cannot be serious - I have read the OT and there are many references, types and shadows of the messiah. Hint - Who Did Jesus refer to as pointing to Him?


Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

On the other hand, I see no need to add in Talmudic writings in order to form the view of a Messiah to come...

My concern here is not whether the Talmud is correct, neither whether Christianity or the New Testament are correct.
It is that there is no clear messiah in the Old Testament, period.
Somebody who has never heard of Christianity before that reads the Old Testament will NOT walk away with any inference even of some messianic expectation they just won't.
Only when you read the Old Testament in conjunction with the Talmud (Oral Torah) would you ever think such a thing.

There are also Jews that reject the Talmud (Karaites) and they likewise also do not believe in any messiah, they believe it's a hearsay concept stolen from Zoroastrianism (well that's a common view).
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
10,651
Somebody who has never heard of Christianity before that reads the Old Testament will NOT walk away with any inference even of some messianic expectation they just won't.
 






Top