The Gospel Of Salvation

Kung Fu

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The last few pages of this thread have been a really funny read.

Anyways, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere in the Bible and not mentioned once. If anyone wants to use the interpolated fabricated verse then they'll have to provide a Greek manuscript prior to the 14th century with the Comma to be considered anywhere near somewhat valid.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The last few pages of this thread have been a really funny read.

Anyways, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere in the Bible and not mentioned once. If anyone wants to use the interpolated fabricated verse then they'll have to provide a Greek manuscript prior to the 14th century with the Comma to be considered anywhere near somewhat valid.
I have had some time away researching textual criticism (!) The "critical text", lauded by many scholars and lovers of the Revised Version as the "oldest and best" manuscripts still appears to be an issue for you.

By way of empathy, it i had been convinced that these were the real deal and the KJV was an "improved" Bible, where later orthodox Christian doctrine was interpolated, I might see things more as you do.

You might be interested that since the production of digital versions on Textus Vaticanus and Textus Sinaticus, there have been some interesting research and implications....


If you enjoy this first talk, this other (slightly earlier) one on the "Traditional Text" was also very interesting!

 
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I have had some time away researching textual criticism (!) The "critical text", lauded by many scholars and lovers of the Revised Version as the "oldest and best" manuscripts still appears to be an issue for you.

By way of empathy, it i had been convinced that these were the real deal and the KJV was an "improved" Bible, where later orthodox Christian doctrine was interpolated, I might see things more as you do.

You might be interested that since the production of digital versions on Textus Vaticanus and Textus Sinaticus, there have been some interesting research and implications....
If a person is saved, they only need the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth.

If people just prayed, and asked God to lead them to His Word, He WILL. And they would know.

It ISN’T necessary to peruse scholarly, peer-reviewed papers & such things...they will lead you astray.

Compare spiritual with spiritual.

ANY saved person can easily find God’s truth.

It really boils down to how much faith a person has in God.

Go straight to the source & ask God for revelation.

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”....Jeremiah 33:3 KJB
 

elsbet

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So you believe God is not really omnipotent? You believe in the end God will defer to man's will over his own? Or do you not think God's glory is not sufficient to turn even the hardest heart and the most stubborn sinner when the veil of this world is removed and they all stand in front of God face to face? Or you just think God's patience, love and mercy h7ave a limit and that his mercy and grace do not extend to the age to come?
None of the above. :)

Of course God's will and glory trump all-- that goes without saying-- and I'm not imposing a limit to His mercy. I'm not try to be contentious either.. just so you know.

What I mean is that those aren't the terms. It seems to me that it must be an act of our Will-- not independent of God, but in response to Him. You've heard it before-- some even call it a transaction. But it isn't like anyone is getting lost in the shuffle. He knows who belongs to Him and as He said-- my sheep know my voice.


I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth..
Isaiah 43:6

My .02
 
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The last few pages of this thread have been a really funny read.

Anyways, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere in the Bible and not mentioned once. If anyone wants to use the interpolated fabricated verse then they'll have to provide a Greek manuscript prior to the 14th century with the Comma to be considered anywhere near somewhat valid.
Kung Fu,

Daciple & I both posted (earlier in this thread) Scripture regarding the Godhead, aka Trinity.

Keep in mind, God created man in His own image.

The triune nature is expressed in all of us.

I am a...

1. Spirit

With a.....

2. Soul (Will)

Living in a.....

3. Body

3 completely separate components of 1 single person.

God is:

1. The Holy Spirit

With a Will....

2. The Father

Manifested in a body.....

3. Jesus Christ

These 3= God

There is ONLY ONE God.

I am only one person.

We are both Triune, while being one.
 

Forever Light

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Kung Fu,

Daciple & I both posted (earlier in this thread) Scripture regarding the Godhead, aka Trinity.

Keep in mind, God created man in His own image.

The triune nature is expressed in all of us.

I am a...

1. Spirit

With a.....

2. Soul (Will)

Living in a.....

3. Body

3 completely separate components of 1 single person.

God is:

1. The Holy Spirit

With a Will....

2. The Father

Manifested in a body.....

3. Jesus Christ

These 3= God

There is ONLY ONE God.

I am only one person.

We are both Triune, while being one.
The trinity is a catholic doctrine that they invented when Rome "standardised" the new Universal (Catholic) religion.
It was not believed or adhered to by the early disciples and "Followers of The Way".
The church made some insertions into the Bible text later on to try and "blend it in" (bit it still doesn't fit) and this is proven by the manuscript evidence.

A simple way to start looking at this, is consider that even though Jesus "supposedly" taught the trinity formula, not a single one of the disciples ever used it afterwards, anywhere in the NT, including the book of Acts.

So, if you were taught the trinity doctrine concept in church while growing up (and like most Christians, I was taught it too) then this may be something you would wish to start looking into.

Peace be upon you & God Bless, FL.
 

elsbet

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If a person is saved, they only need the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth.

If people just prayed, and asked God to lead them to His Word, He WILL. And they would know.

It ISN’T necessary to peruse scholarly, peer-reviewed papers & such things...they will lead you astray.

Compare spiritual with spiritual.

ANY saved person can easily find God’s truth.

It really boils down to how much faith a person has in God.

Go straight to the source & ask God for revelation.

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”....Jeremiah 33:3 KJB
If people are led to speak of God, then it is reasonable to assume they are led to write as well. Why would the Spirit not lead to exegesis for those who would learn from It, in the same way one would profit from the pulpit? That's rhetorical, of course. The body of Christ benefits from the gifts of its members, all of which are intended (and ultimately will) give glory to God, as He sees fit.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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If a person is saved, they only need the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth.

If people just prayed, and asked God to lead them to His Word, He WILL. And they would know.

It ISN’T necessary to peruse scholarly, peer-reviewed papers & such things...they will lead you astray.

Compare spiritual with spiritual.

ANY saved person can easily find God’s truth.

It really boils down to how much faith a person has in God.

Go straight to the source & ask God for revelation.

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”....Jeremiah 33:3 KJB
I take your point, Claire, but you can have good intellectual reasons for preferring bibles based on the traditional text rather than the critical texts.

I found this diagram quite useful in visualizing the heritage of the two texts...

KJV-Only-Chart.gif
 
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King of kings' Bible, Matthew
6:12 And forgive us our debts and trespasses (if we truly repent), as we forgive our debtors and those who trespass against us (if they truly repent).
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Yes, we already clarified that, thanks.
 
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The trinity is a catholic doctrine that they invented when Rome "standardised" the new Universal (Catholic) religion.
It was not believed or adhered to by the early disciples and "Followers of The Way".
The church made some insertions into the Bible text later on to try and "blend it in" (bit it still doesn't fit) and this is proven by the manuscript evidence.

A simple way to start looking at this, is consider that even though Jesus "supposedly" taught the trinity formula, not a single one of the disciples ever used it afterwards, anywhere in the NT, including the book of Acts.

So, if you were taught the trinity doctrine concept in church while growing up (and like most Christians, I was taught it too) then this may be something you would wish to start looking into.

Peace be upon you & God Bless, FL.
What are you talking about?
The triune nature of God is taught all throughout Scripture!

Not only was the Trinity BELIEVED by all the apostles, they were even witnesses of it at Jesus baptism.


Matthew 3:
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And ever since John, people are baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost.

ALL of my beliefs are based on the Word of God.



The doctrine of the Trinity is found ALL throughout the Bible. I'm not even sure how you could miss it if you read it the Bible at all.
 
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Karlysymon

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The trinity is a catholic doctrine that they invented when Rome "standardised" the new Universal (Catholic) religion.
It was not believed or adhered to by the early disciples and "Followers of The Way".
The church made some insertions into the Bible text later on to try and "blend it in" (bit it still doesn't fit) and this is proven by the manuscript evidence.

A simple way to start looking at this, is consider that even though Jesus "supposedly" taught the trinity formula, not a single one of the disciples ever used it afterwards, anywhere in the NT, including the book of Acts.

So, if you were taught the trinity doctrine concept in church while growing up (and like most Christians, I was taught it too) then this may be something you would wish to start looking into.

Peace be upon you & God Bless, FL.
Todd said:
"That the Trinity doctrine was
constructed not out of a desire to understand God, but rather as part of a a vendetta against
heresies (i.e. first Arianism, then Macedonianism), is what makes it as nonsensical as it seems. It was not designed as a rational theology and was never intended to be one; it was designed specifically, and only,to refute other theologies and to exclude those who adhered to them."
My problem with this is, if they had the opportunity to make those insertions about Christ, why didn't they go further and do the same about Mary and the saints? Ok, we are told its hyperdulia and dulia about the latter. But even then, why not go all out?

The RCC took the liberty (setting themselves up as the Soveriegn of the universe) to edit the Eternal Law by removing the 2nd commandment
http://vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

to accomodate their graven-images doctrine and split the 10th into two. If their intent was to push the trinity and make Christ, a God, they had and still have the opportunity to get rid of the 1st commandment.

Is this from the 'lying pen of the scribes'?
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:20
 

Forever Light

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My problem with this is, if they had the opportunity to make those insertions about Christ, why didn't they go further and do the same about Mary and the saints? Ok, we are told its hyperdulia and dulia about the latter. But even then, why not go all out?
I don't know. Maybe they didn't want to push it more than they thought they could get away with? But given enough time who knows... They just might try...

From what I read today, the main reason was that people were basically arguing about it, and there were people on both ends of the spectrum and this was causing the church to divide, somewhere around the 4th century time period. A lot of those who were pagans before, were brought into the church and they came with ideas they had of trinities from before. So, the church (or Constantine) wanted to unify the church (for political reasons) and so, they must have felt they had enough reason to go to the trouble and then came up with the concept of the trinity for that purpose. And since then, it hasn't changed.

The RCC took the liberty (setting themselves up as the Soveriegn of the universe) to edit the Eternal Law by removing the 2nd commandment
http://vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

to accomodate their graven-images doctrine and split the 10th into two. If their intent was to push the trinity and make Christ, a God, they had and still have the opportunity to get rid of the 1st commandment.
Agreed. Just like they did with the Sabbath, too.

Is this from the 'lying pen of the scribes'?
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:20
No, of course not.
How do we know?
Because, we know this to be true from personal experience which has confirmed it. And so we know it to be true.

But see, here is the thing (at least, this is in my opinion). What we don't need here, is for men in costumes to now come forward and produce an obligatory church sanctioned "trinity doctrine" that they wrote down for everyone, and that everyone now MUST believe in exactly as they wrote it (and if not, then they shall be damned to burn in hell fire forever. And that is exactly what the situation with the trinity doctrine is, according to the RCC!)

Which means, tht according to them, if you don't believe THEIR doctrine (not Christs' but theirs) and exactly as they (the RCC) have said people MUST believe it in order to be saved, then you will go to hell (according to them).

That is plainly evil and wrong!
Not all Christians believe the trintiy doctrine. True, the ones that don't are a small minority, but still there are Christians who don't believe it, as that is not what they find when studying the Bible and from what it says to them.

So, for the RCC (the "mother" church) it is not enough, or even advisable (!) even today, for anyone to read The Bible for themselves (without their priests guiding them) and follow Christ's Teachings on their own, and let Christ teach them personally what it means and how He wants us to be.

The Pope even recently proposed that having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is dangerous.

It is because they (the RCC) are a bunch of control freaks who still want to be the dispensers of the "universal" ("catholic" - one world) religion for everyone and plus, they believe they have MORE authority than both God and Christ, which is totally absurd and ridiculous.
 
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If people are led to speak of God, then it is reasonable to assume they are led to write as well. Why would the Spirit not lead to exegesis for those who would learn from It, in the same way one would profit from the pulpit? That's rhetorical, of course. The body of Christ benefits from the gifts of its members, all of which are intended (and ultimately will) give glory to God, as He sees fit.
I am not against learning from others, what I am saying is there are a lot of false prophets out there & we need to ensure that our teachings are grounded in truth, align with the Word of God (as opposed to the word of man), and are spiritually discerned.
 

Forever Light

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The Koran says, say not "trinity".
The thing, is the Bible doesn't say trinity either.

We read of The Father, and of The Son, and the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible. But the "trinity doctrine" (which is a human attempt of the churchmen, to try and "define" for everyone what it all means - and then they went and forced it onto people) is not there.
Not anywhere.

There is no mentoin of Jesus making a "sermon on the trinity".
He made an awesome Sermon on the mount, though.

Put it another way. If the church didn't come out with a "trinity doctrine", and claiming superiority over God and His Word and then started forcing people by telling they MUST believe according to their doctrine (because, they want to control everyone - it's always about control) then there would have been no argument about this between Christians and Muslims.

The trinity docrine (like all doctrines of organised-religion) doesn't allow people to reason and think freely and read the Scriptures without these preconceived ideas and then asking God about it for themselves. Instead, it forces people to see God in a way that the church says you MUST because they have decided it.

3:84 The Lord sent you here, and He is the only one who knows EXACTLY what each soul has to
learn, on an individual basis, and therefore, He is the ONLY one who can teach you. THAT is why
organized-religions are totally wrong, because they build a wall between you and God, preventing
your direct-contact, and your free thinking and reasoning process. This is exactly what Satan wants,
and that is why he invented organized-religions. - [
TWH]
 
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Forever Light

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Plus, going through life having a "herd mentality" is against God's Law:

Exodus
23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to agree falsely with the majority and thereby pervert [judgment]:
 

Karlysymon

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I don't know. Maybe they didn't want to push it more than they thought they could get away with? But given enough time who knows... They just might try...

From what I read today, the main reason was that people were basically arguing about it, and there were people on both ends of the spectrum and this was causing the church to divide, somewhere around the 4th century time period. A lot of those who were pagans before, were brought into the church and they came with ideas they had of trinities from before. So, the church (or Constantine) wanted to unify the church (for political reasons) and so, they must have felt they had enough reason to go to the trouble and then came up with the concept of the trinity for that purpose. And since then, it hasn't changed.



Agreed. Just like they did with the Sabbath, too.


No, of course not.
How do we know?
Because, we know this to be true from personal experience which has confirmed it. And so we know it to be true.

But see, here is the thing (at least, this is in my opinion). What we don't need here, is for men in costumes to now come forward and produce an obligatory church sanctioned "trinity doctrine" that they wrote down for everyone, and that everyone now MUST believe in exactly as they wrote it (and if not, then they shall be damned to burn in hell fire forever. And that is exactly what the situation with the trinity doctrine is, according to the RCC!)

Which means, tht according to them, if you don't believe THEIR doctrine (not Christs' but theirs) and exactly as they (the RCC) have said people MUST believe it in order to be saved, then you will go to hell (according to them).

That is plainly evil and wrong!
Not all Christians believe the trintiy doctrine. True, the ones that don't are a small minority, but still there are Christians who don't believe it, as that is not what they find when studying the Bible and from what it says to them.

So, for the RCC (the "mother" church) it is not enough, or even advisable (!) even today, for anyone to read The Bible for themselves (without their priests guiding them) and follow Christ's Teachings on their own, and let Christ teach them personally what it means and how He wants us to be.

The Pope even recently proposed that having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is dangerous.

It is because they (the RCC) are a bunch of control freaks who still want to be the dispensers of the "universal" ("catholic" - one world) religion for everyone and plus, they believe they have MORE authority than both God and Christ, which is totally absurd and ridiculous.
Thanx, it was an interesting reply.

Thing is, the argument about introducing the trinity into christianity to attract and retain pagan converts has also been used about the virgin birth.

Anyway, about Matt 18:20, since, as you said, the presence of Christ in our midst is proven by personal experience then why this undying argument about the divinity of Christ? (i understood your point that the church shouldn't be the ultimate source on the nature of God ) Why do we continue to question whether Jesus is God or not?
Right there, in that verse, Christ claims omnipresence. It is an attribute of a god, that cannot be transferred/imputed to another being. So, i as a christian, iam supposed to hold the belief that nowhere in Holywrit is found the word Trinity, nor an explicit teaching about it (hence false-teaching) and yet hold another belief of Christ's omnipresence...keeping in mind the Father cannot impute/transfer that attribute to another being. This is dissonance.

My pov is...God has endowed each one of us with an intellect, as such we are required to accept the truth intellectually. Sin is a universal and ages-long problem and for something as important as redemption, clearly God hasn't made it a point to wrap the Person meant to redeem man, up in ambiguity.

Personally, i can never grasp the theme of redemption until i examine the person of Christ, from A-Z (as humanly possible).
 

Forever Light

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Anyway, about Matt 18:20, since, as you said, the presence of Christ in our midst is proven by personal experience then why this undying argument about the divinity of Christ? (i understood your point that the church shouldn't be the ultimate source on the nature of God ) Why do we continue to question whether Jesus is God or not?
If we believe that all Scripture is inspired by God, then it would make sense that we would wish to understand the message correctly and that it should be possible to find agreement throughout. If this is not definitely the case, then it must mean that there still some misunderstanding or error remaining, on our part. If the argument remains undying, then maybe it is because there is still something that we haven't been able to fully or correctly comprehend (or grasp) yet, otherwise, if it had been then we would have the answer and the argument would end. So I believe it can perhaps mean that we are being prompted, to deepen our search in order to gain a more correct understanding of God's truth and His message to us.
Right there, in that verse, Christ claims omnipresence. It is an attribute of a god, that cannot be transferred/imputed to another being.
Unless Father (to Whom we know ALL things are possible) gives it!
If we look at what Christ said later:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And earlier in Matthew:
11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father:...

(and also in this verse, where Christ is again telling us Who the Giver is... (Father):
20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.)

6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name....
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

So to Father belongs the power, and His is also the power to give it.
So, i as a christian, iam supposed to hold the belief that nowhere in Holywrit is found the word Trinity
Correct.
, nor an explicit teaching about it (hence false-teaching) and yet hold another belief of Christ's omnipresence...
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father:...
28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
keeping in mind the Father cannot impute/transfer that attribute to another being. This is dissonance.
Father... cannot? Is this a correct belief? Can Father not do or give anything, as He pleases?
My pov is...God has endowed each one of us with an intellect, as such we are required to accept the truth intellectually. Sin is a universal and ages-long problem and for something as important as redemption, clearly God hasn't made it a point to wrap the Person meant to redeem man, up in ambiguity.
Agreed and as above.
 
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Karlysymon

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If we believe that all Scripture is inspired by God, then it would make sense that we would wish to understand the message correctly and that it should be possible to find agreement throughout. If this is not definitely the case, then it must mean that there still some misunderstanding or error remaining, on our part. If the argument remains undying, then maybe it is because there is still something that we haven't been able to fully or correctly comprehend (or grasp) yet, otherwise, if it had been then we would have the answer and the argument would end. So I believe it can perhaps mean that we are being prompted, to deepen our search in order to gain a more correct understanding of God's truth and His message to us.

Unless Father (to Whom we know ALL things are possible) gives it!
If we look at what Christ said later:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And earlier in Matthew:
11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father:...

(and also in this verse, where Christ is again telling us Who the Giver is... (Father):
20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.)

6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name....
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

So to Father belongs the power, and His is also the power to give it.

Correct.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father:...
28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Father... cannot? Is this a correct belief? Can Father not do or give anything, as He pleases?

Agreed and as above.
I'll get back to you on this...hopefully
 
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