The Gospel Of Salvation

Damien50

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@Todd I never actually understand what the issue is in regards to what they so vehemently debate with you about. If I remember correctly, it started with

  • Not believing every word to be God's in the bible
  • You professing a works based salvation
  • You being told you aren't saved
  • You being given interpretations of what behind fruitful is
  • Refer to point 3
  • Accused of being a wolf in sheep's clothing
So since I do still believe this to be a forum and you have yet to drip venom I'll ask a series of questions :)

  1. Is salvation reconciliation between man and God?
  2. Is salvation a spiritual circumcision sealing the carnal from the spiritual?
  3. What must I do to be saved?
  4. Does the Road to Romans accurately depict the path to salvation?
  5. I'm saved, now what are my duties, responsibilities, and overall should I as a <insert general Christian> be doing?
  6. I'm saved but do my works based in faith actually matter in the grand scheme of things?
  7. I'm saved so I'm a spiritual Israelite now right?
  8. Can I lose my salvation?
  9. Some Xyzstian told me the ten commandments were for Israel and that Jesus summed the whole of the law? What should I follow?
  10. Bonus: Other Christians keep attacking my understanding of the bible and scrutinizing my salvation, how do they know if I'm saved? Can they identify the holy spirit in me or is the confirmation bias via group think real?
  11. BONUS: Has God ever called us to tear down false religions or to seek them out to destroy them or anything of that nature?
I have my own answers to these Todd I'm curious to yours. Until later sock account.
 

Daciple

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Might want to add to the points:

1) Denies Jesus as God
2) Denies the Trinity
3) Denies the need to Repent and Believe in Jesus to attain Heaven
4) Denies Paul as an Apostle, hence calls him a liar

First 3 are Salvation Dependant Doctrine, the 4th comes to pass when you reject the 1st 3. Also Todd pretty much rejects there actually being Salvation Dependant Doctrines, or False Teachers that bring in Damnable Heresies. According to his gospel you can believe in and worship Satan, murder babies and drink their blood, kill Christians and you still get to Heaven! There is no wrong doctrine in his gospel, everything is permissible.

Essentially his doctrine is Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, all the while talking about needing works for Salvation,yet everyone is Saved. It's a mess of Hypocrisy none of which is actually taught in the Bible when you take it as a whole. That is why he chops it up putting this and that verse above others or out right dismissing entire chapters verses and books.
 

Todd

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Apr 16, 2017
Messages
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Might want to add to the points:

1) Denies Jesus as God
I don't deny Jesus is God, I just don't argue that he is, since the word of God never explicitly says he is. The word of God says he is the Messiah and the Christ. Those two things aren't dependent on him being God. I'm not saying Jesus is not God, I just can't prove it, so why bother arguing. It doesn't bother or offend me when others say Jesus is God. My salvation is dependent on Christ being the Messiah and being Lord. That I believe and profess with my whole heart!
2) Denies the Trinity
There are and have been many Christians that deny the Trinity since it is not explicitly taught in scripture. The only explicit teaching in scripture is that there is only one God. Not one explicit mention of God being three. Only scriptures that can be interpreted to imply that God is three in one.
3) Denies the need to Repent and Believe in Jesus to attain Heaven
Nope, wrong again. I never denied this. I only state that there is opportunity to do so in the ages to come. I can tell you don't really read and contemplate, meditate or even pray about what I write, because you can't even accurately state the points I have made.
4) Denies Paul as an Apostle, hence calls him a liar
Yes I deny Paul was an Apostle as he was an Evangelist. That doesn't mean he was a liar. I think Paul genuinely believed he was an Apostle, I just think he was wrong. The fact that he was continually trying to convince others he was an Apostle also casts some doubt about how many believers at the time believed he was a genuine Apostle. I have used this forum to wrestle through what I beleive about Paul. My pendulum swung from the far right to far left and has now come to rest in the middle. Paul was an Evangelist used by God and while there is some wisdom in his writings, I will never take the words of Paul over the words of God and Jesus. We all learn things from preachers and teachers that we do not always agree with 100%. Why is that not a valid approach to the wisdom and teaching of Paul? He is after all an imperfect man like every other teacher, preacher and evangelist that has walked this earth.

First 3 are Salvation Dependant Doctrine, the 4th comes to pass when you reject the 1st 3.
Show me one scripture that says belief that Jesus is God is neccesary for salvation. Show me one scripture that says belief in the Trinity is neccesary for salvation.
Also Todd pretty much rejects there actually being Salvation Dependant Doctrines, or False Teachers that bring in Damnable Heresies. According to his gospel you can believe in and worship Satan, murder babies and drink their blood, kill Christians and you still get to Heaven! There is no wrong doctrine in his gospel, everything is permissible.
Wrong again. You are totally misrepresenting what I believe.
Essentially his doctrine is Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, all the while talking about needing works for Salvation,yet everyone is Saved.
Now your just resorting to slander and libel. It's almost like you get some thrill or joy out of judging and condemning others. Why not let others just read my posts and decide for themsleves. They can read your arguments and choose to come to the same conclusions if they wish.

It's a mess of Hypocrisy none of which is actually taught in the Bible when you take it as a whole. That is why he chops it up putting this and that verse above others or out right dismissing entire chapters verses and books.
Do I take the words of God and Jesus over the words of a self proclaimed Apostle? Yes, Guilty as charged! I will stand before God with a clean conscience and if I find out that I was wrong about Paul, I can live with that. I'd rather make that mistake then have God say "you made the choice to believe a man over me"
 
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I don't deny Jesus is God, I just don't argue that he is, since the word of God never explicitly says he is. The word of God says he is the Messiah and the Christ. Those two things aren't dependent on him being God. I'm not saying Jesus is not God, I just can't prove it, so why bother arguing. It doesn't bother or offend me when others say Jesus is God. My salvation is dependent on Christ being the Messiah and being Lord. That I believe and profess with my whole heart!

There are and have been many Christians that deny the Trinity since it is not explicitly taught in scripture. The only explicit teaching in scripture is that there is only one God. Not one explicit mention of God being three. Only scriptures that can be interpreted to imply that God is three in one.

Nope, wrong again. I never denied this. I only state that there is opportunity to do so in the ages to come. I can tell you don't really read and contemplate, meditate or even pray about what I write, because you can't even accurately state the points I have made.

Yes I deny Paul was an Apostle as he was an Evangelist. That doesn't mean he was a liar. I think Paul genuinely believed he was an Apostle, I just think he was wrong. The fact that he was continually trying to convince others he was an Apostle also casts some doubt about how many believers at the time believed he was a genuine Apostle. I have used this forum to wrestle through what I beleive about Paul. My pendulum swung from the far right to far left and has now come to rest in the middle. Paul was an Evangelist used by God and while there is some wisdom in his writings, I will never take the words of Paul over the words of God and Jesus. We all learn things from preachers and teachers that we do not always agree with 100%. Why is that not a valid approach to the wisdom and teaching of Paul? He is after all an imperfect man like every other teacher, preacher and evangelist that has walked this earth.


Show me one scripture that says belief that Jesus is God is neccesary for salvation. Show me one scripture that says belief in the Trinity is neccesary for salvation.

Wrong again. You are totally misrepresenting what I believe.

Now your just resorting to slander and libel. It's almost like you get some thrill or joy out of judging and condemning others. Why not let others just read my posts and decide for themsleves. They can read your arguments and choose to come to the same conclusions if they wish.


Do I take the words of God and Jesus over the words of a self proclaimed Apostle? Yes, Guilty as charged! I will stand before God with a clean conscience and if I find out that I was wrong about Paul, I can live with that. I'd rather make that mistake then have God say "you made the choice to believe a man over me"
Actually, #2 IS in the Bible:

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”.....1 John 5:7
 

Todd

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Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,525
@Todd
1. Is salvation reconciliation between man and God?
Yes that is part of it. reconcilation is the utlimate goal of salvation. Salvation is a process, not a one time event. The correct term for the one time event is being "Born Again". When you first believe and accept Jesus as the Messiah/Christ and acknowledge him as Lord, your spirit is reborn. Your flesh and soul is still in need of sanctification but your spirit is made alive and reunited in fellowship with God, through the blood of Christ. But being "Born Again" is just the initial step in the process of Salvation. I used to believe that salvation was about being saved from Eternal Torment. Now I understand that we don't need to be saved from God's vengence. We need to be saved from the power of sin. Do I still sin? Yes, but the more I walk with God and am lead by his Spirit the less and less I sin. When I do sin, I am quicker to repent and turn away from the sin and though I sin, that sin does not have the same power it used to have over me.

Simple example. The other night my wife was getting ready to walk out the door and go to work (she works overnight, doing home health care). Right before she left we were discussing some things and I got frustrated over a misunderstanding. My frustration resulted in behavior that hurt my wife. In the past, when I saw her react to my frustration, I would defend my feelings and likely get more frustrated because she was not caring that I was frustrated. But one of the many "fruits" of my growth in God is the ability to prefer others over myself. So as soon as I recognized the hurt my frustration caused, I repented and apologized. In the past my wife would have left for work hurting and endure a terrible night due to the tension in our relationship. I likewise probably would have went to bed fuming and replaying the situation in my mind trying to justify why I was right and she was wrong. So though I sinned by letting my frustration result in ungodly behavior that hurt my wife, because I repented quickly and ministered to my wife (a deed or work of love) she was able to go to work peacefully. So I sinned but the sin did not have the same power over me because of the Spirit of God working in me. Obviously some sins have consequences that can't always be remedied in a moment, but it's still a small example of how, though I still sin on occasion, sin no longer has the same power over me.
2. Is salvation a spiritual circumcision sealing the carnal from the spiritual?
Being Born again is the spiritual circumcision. Salvation is the process of learning how to cause our spirit which is now born again and seperated from the flesh to dominate over the carnal. It's a gradual process, not something we learn instantaneously. I believe Paul's whole "I do what I don't want to do" (Romans 7:15-20) is his description of this struggle between the spritual and carnal.
3. What must I do to be saved?
Believe that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead. Believe and confess that God has made Jesus both Christ and Lord. If one confesses this by faith, then their spirit is born again. Once we are born again we work out our salvation by following the commands of Christ, living according to God's perfect guidance and instruction, which is the Torah (not to be confused with the cermonial law, or all the traditions of Israel that were added by man) Jesus was the living embodiment of the Torah and he summed up the Torah as" Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself". Love is a verb, requiring action or deeds or works. It is by denying our own selfish desires that we "crucify our flesh" and "pick up our Cross" to follow Jesus. When we do this we are "saved" from the power of sin in our life.
4. Does the Road to Romans accurately depict the path to salvation?
Not entirely. This is a mistake I think many evangelistic Christians mistake, thinking that the Roman Road depicts the entirety of Salvation. I believe the Road to Romans depicts the start of the process of salvation.
5. I'm saved, now what are my duties, responsibilities, and overall should I as a <insert general Christian> be doing?
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Learn to trust God and be lead by his spirit with one of the most important aspects being to learn how to let the Spirit of God convict you and quickly repent when you do sin. Through this we grow in God and our character is purged and refined so that our fruit is evident to others. They will know we are disciples of Christ by our love. God is love and so "doing his will" always starts out of love.
6. I'm saved but do my works based in faith actually matter in the grand scheme of things?
Yes, as our works are evidence that we Love God. "If you love me, you will follow my commands". Also to do works by faith, we must crucify our flesh and deny our own selfishness which is an important step in the sanctification of our souls. Our works are also the most effective form of evangelism. Works born out of faith and love have more power than any preaching, in drawing people to God.
7. I'm saved so I'm a spiritual Israelite now right?
Correct!
8. Can I lose my salvation?
Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God, not even death, which is the wage of sin. All we will be reconciled to God and saved from the power of sin. Can you be born again and start on the road of salvation and turn off that road? Sure. I think the correct question is can I be born again, but still end up having to be sanctified in the Lake of Fire in the age to come. I think the answer is yes. If we don't continue and complete the process of salvation in this lifetime it only seems logical that we will need to in the age to come. It's not my place to try to figure out where others are in that process, though.
9. Some Xyzstian told me the ten commandments were for Israel and that Jesus summed the whole of the law? What should I follow?
A summary of something does not supersede or negate what is being summarized. If you truly love God and love your neighbor as yourself you will not break the 10 commandments. Conversely you can look at the ten commandments as God's perfect guidance and instruction for loving him and loving our neighbors.
Bonus: Other Christians keep attacking my understanding of the bible and scrutinizing my salvation, how do they know if I'm saved? Can they identify the holy spirit in me or is the confirmation bias via group think real?
Excellent question. Why do we need to know if someone is saved? Should we treat someone differently if they are saved or not saved? I believe when someone is genuinely born again, that your spirit will recognize it. Of course discerning someone's spirit over an internet forum is much more difficult than in person. Jesus said we will recognize others by the fruit in their life. It's not worth it to loose sleep over someone else's opinion of the condition of your soul. If you are born again and being led by God's spirit, you will have an inner witness that you are in fellowship with God.
BONUS: Has God ever called us to tear down false religions or to seek them out to destroy them or anything of that nature?
In the OT God called Israel to tear down the high places (sacred altars of false religions). But that was because the whole nation of Israel had truned and followed other God's so they were tearing down the false religion amongst themselves not of neighboring kingdoms. I beleive we are to be city on a hill and light unto the nations. If the heathen sees the light of the truth in our lives, we have no need to point out the false relgions around us.
I have my own answers to these Todd I'm curious to yours. Until later sock account.
I'm so glad I have a sock account to create the opportunity to lay out my beliefs in more detail LOL!
 

Todd

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Messages
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Actually, #2 IS in the Bible:

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”.....1 John 5:7
Almost every serious Bible scholar acknowledges this as an addition in the KJV that was added to support the catholic doctrine of the trinity.

"That the Trinity doctrine was constructed not out of a desire to understand God, but rather as part of a a vendetta against heresies (i.e. first Arianism, then Macedonianism), is what makes it as nonsensical as it seems. It was not designed as a rational theology and was never intended to be one; it was designed specifically, and only, to refute other theologies and to exclude those who adhered to them."
(http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/index.html)
 

Damien50

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Apr 22, 2017
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Yes that is part of it. reconcilation is the utlimate goal of salvation. Salvation is a process, not a one time event. The correct term for the one time event is being "Born Again". When you first believe and accept Jesus as the Messiah/Christ and acknowledge him as Lord, your spirit is reborn. Your flesh and soul is still in need of sanctification but your spirit is made alive and reunited in fellowship with God, through the blood of Christ. But being "Born Again" is just the initial step in the process of Salvation. I used to believe that salvation was about being saved from Eternal Torment. Now I understand that we don't need to be saved from God's vengence. We need to be saved from the power of sin. Do I still sin? Yes, but the more I walk with God and am lead by his Spirit the less and less I sin. When I do sin, I am quicker to repent and turn away from the sin and though I sin, that sin does not have the same power it used to have over me.

Simple example. The other night my wife was getting ready to walk out the door and go to work (she works overnight, doing home health care). Right before she left we were discussing some things and I got frustrated over a misunderstanding. My frustration resulted in behavior that hurt my wife. In the past, when I saw her react to my frustration, I would defend my feelings and likely get more frustrated because she was not caring that I was frustrated. But one of the many "fruits" of my growth in God is the ability to prefer others over myself. So as soon as I recognized the hurt my frustration caused, I repented and apologized. In the past my wife would have left for work hurting and endure a terrible night due to the tension in our relationship. I likewise probably would have went to bed fuming and replaying the situation in my mind trying to justify why I was right and she was wrong. So though I sinned by letting my frustration result in ungodly behavior that hurt my wife, because I repented quickly and ministered to my wife (a deed or work of love) she was able to go to work peacefully. So I sinned but the sin did not have the same power over me because of the Spirit of God working in me. Obviously some sins have consequences that can't always be remedied in a moment, but it's still a small example of how, though I still sin on occasion, sin no longer has the same power over me.

Being Born again is the spiritual circumcision. Salvation is the process of learning how to cause our spirit which is now born again and seperated from the flesh to dominate over the carnal. It's a gradual process, not something we learn instantaneously. I believe Paul's whole "I do what I don't want to do" (Romans 7:15-20) is his description of this struggle between the spritual and carnal.

Believe that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead. Believe and confess that God has made Jesus both Christ and Lord. If one confesses this by faith, then their spirit is born again. Once we are born again we work out our salvation by following the commands of Christ, living according to God's perfect guidance and instruction, which is the Torah (not to be confused with the cermonial law, or all the traditions of Israel that were added by man) Jesus was the living embodiment of the Torah and he summed up the Torah as" Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself". Love is a verb, requiring action or deeds or works. It is by denying our own selfish desires that we "crucify our flesh" and "pick up our Cross" to follow Jesus. When we do this we are "saved" from the power of sin in our life.

Not entirely. This is a mistake I think many evangelistic Christians mistake, thinking that the Roman Road depicts the entirety of Salvation. I believe the Road to Romans depicts the start of the process of salvation.

Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Learn to trust God and be lead by his spirit with one of the most important aspects being to learn how to let the Spirit of God convict you and quickly repent when you do sin. Through this we grow in God and our character is purged and refined so that our fruit is evident to others. They will know we are disciples of Christ by our love. God is love and so "doing his will" always starts out of love.

Yes, as our works are evidence that we Love God. "If you love me, you will follow my commands". Also to do works by faith, we must crucify our flesh and deny our own selfishness which is an important step in the sanctification of our souls. Our works are also the most effective form of evangelism. Works born out of faith and love have more power than any preaching, in drawing people to God.

Correct!

Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God, not even death, which is the wage of sin. All we will be reconciled to God and saved from the power of sin. Can you be born again and start on the road of salvation and turn off that road? Sure. I think the correct question is can I be born again, but still end up having to be sanctified in the Lake of Fire in the age to come. I think the answer is yes. If we don't continue and complete the process of salvation in this lifetime it only seems logical that we will need to in the age to come. It's not my place to try to figure out where others are in that process, though.

A summary of something does not supersede or negate what is being summarized. If you truly love God and love your neighbor as yourself you will not break the 10 commandments. Conversely you can look at the ten commandments as God's perfect guidance and instruction for loving him and loving our neighbors.

Excellent question. Why do we need to know if someone is saved? Should we treat someone differently if they are saved or not saved? I believe when someone is genuinely born again, that your spirit will recognize it. Of course discerning someone's spirit over an internet forum is much more difficult than in person. Jesus said we will recognize others by the fruit in their life. It's not worth it to loose sleep over someone else's opinion of the condition of your soul. If you are born again and being led by God's spirit, you will have an inner witness that you are in fellowship with God.

In the OT God called Israel to tear down the high places (sacred altars of false religions). But that was because the whole nation of Israel had truned and followed other God's so they were tearing down the false religion amongst themselves not of neighboring kingdoms. I beleive we are to be city on a hill and light unto the nations. If the heathen sees the light of the truth in our lives, we have no need to point out the false relgions around us.

I'm so glad I have a sock account to create the opportunity to lay out my beliefs in more detail LOL!
Not a problem. Though it was interesting to note that even some of my favorite Anabaptist creeds believed that salvation and being born again required acknowledgement of a trinity whereas I acknowledge God, his word, and his spirit as what scripture lays them out to be but not some essential component to salvation.

I personally found no fault with you and while I disagree with universal reconciliation I've spoken with you and read your comments enough to have my own opinion of you. So either you're full of shit or God is working through you but that's not really for me to judge lol.

I appreciate you answering these questions and despite the comments and criticisms you endure. You may be a heretic but I think you're a quite genuine Christian. God bless you or punish you :)
 

Damien50

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Might want to add to the points:

1) Denies Jesus as God
2) Denies the Trinity
3) Denies the need to Repent and Believe in Jesus to attain Heaven
4) Denies Paul as an Apostle, hence calls him a liar

First 3 are Salvation Dependant Doctrine, the 4th comes to pass when you reject the 1st 3. Also Todd pretty much rejects there actually being Salvation Dependant Doctrines, or False Teachers that bring in Damnable Heresies. According to his gospel you can believe in and worship Satan, murder babies and drink their blood, kill Christians and you still get to Heaven! There is no wrong doctrine in his gospel, everything is permissible.

Essentially his doctrine is Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, all the while talking about needing works for Salvation,yet everyone is Saved. It's a mess of Hypocrisy none of which is actually taught in the Bible when you take it as a whole. That is why he chops it up putting this and that verse above others or out right dismissing entire chapters verses and books.
I get the Paul part but I've never gotten that impression from his post maybe I've been blind for two years. Carry on though as it's all quite fascinating though I do find it odd when Christians call other Christians hypocrites. It's ironic.

I don't see the trinity as even biblical to really see that as an issue when the term appeared four hundred years later and it's never had an overall positive consensus. Not to say I deny Jesus being the word of God but I deny the theology that promotes the trinity and that it has no real bearing biblically rather is it was so important there is no prophecy, no mention by any of the OT writers or patriarchs. It's not something I'm going to worry myself over but maybe I'm not saved :)
 
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Almost every serious Bible scholar acknowledges this as an addition in the KJV that was added to support the catholic doctrine of the trinity.

"That the Trinity doctrine was constructed not out of a desire to understand God, but rather as part of a a vendetta against heresies (i.e. first Arianism, then Macedonianism), is what makes it as nonsensical as it seems. It was not designed as a rational theology and was never intended to be one; it was designed specifically, and only, to refute other theologies and to exclude those who adhered to them."
(http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/index.html)
That’s false. The new perVersions are based on Catholic writings, like the Codex Vaticanus, NOT the KJB.

Also, the Roman Catholic Inquisition proves that it isn’t true. The RCC did everything they could to PREVENT the public from reading the Word of God.

They had to control the people spiritually because the RCC WAS the state back then.
They knew if people read God’s Word, they would recognize the lies & heresy peddled by the Catholic clergy.

That’s why they wanted them dependent on the RCC. (And still do)

Do you know of the blood, sweat and tears that went into the translating & production of the King James Holy Bible? William Tyndall was burned at the stake for translating the Word of God unto English in the 16th Century, his last words as he died was a prayer to God pleading for God to “open the eyes of the King of England”.

The Roman Catholic Church literally tortured Christians for reading the Holy Bible. They would drag entire families out , accusing them of heresy & burned them at the stake, tossing their Bibles into the fire with them.

Read Foxe’s Book Of Martyrs.

Thousands of Christians were burned for their study of the Bible.

Why didn’t those people simply convert to Catholicism to save their life?

Because....nobody would die for a lie, but many WILL die for the TRUTH.
 
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Messages
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Yes that is part of it. reconcilation is the utlimate goal of salvation. Salvation is a process, not a one time event. The correct term for the one time event is being "Born Again". When you first believe and accept Jesus as the Messiah/Christ and acknowledge him as Lord, your spirit is reborn. Your flesh and soul is still in need of sanctification but your spirit is made alive and reunited in fellowship with God, through the blood of Christ. But being "Born Again" is just the initial step in the process of Salvation. I used to believe that salvation was about being saved from Eternal Torment. Now I understand that we don't need to be saved from God's vengence. We need to be saved from the power of sin. Do I still sin? Yes, but the more I walk with God and am lead by his Spirit the less and less I sin. When I do sin, I am quicker to repent and turn away from the sin and though I sin, that sin does not have the same power it used to have over me.

Simple example. The other night my wife was getting ready to walk out the door and go to work (she works overnight, doing home health care). Right before she left we were discussing some things and I got frustrated over a misunderstanding. My frustration resulted in behavior that hurt my wife. In the past, when I saw her react to my frustration, I would defend my feelings and likely get more frustrated because she was not caring that I was frustrated. But one of the many "fruits" of my growth in God is the ability to prefer others over myself. So as soon as I recognized the hurt my frustration caused, I repented and apologized. In the past my wife would have left for work hurting and endure a terrible night due to the tension in our relationship. I likewise probably would have went to bed fuming and replaying the situation in my mind trying to justify why I was right and she was wrong. So though I sinned by letting my frustration result in ungodly behavior that hurt my wife, because I repented quickly and ministered to my wife (a deed or work of love) she was able to go to work peacefully. So I sinned but the sin did not have the same power over me because of the Spirit of God working in me. Obviously some sins have consequences that can't always be remedied in a moment, but it's still a small example of how, though I still sin on occasion, sin no longer has the same power over me.

Being Born again is the spiritual circumcision. Salvation is the process of learning how to cause our spirit which is now born again and seperated from the flesh to dominate over the carnal. It's a gradual process, not something we learn instantaneously. I believe Paul's whole "I do what I don't want to do" (Romans 7:15-20) is his description of this struggle between the spritual and carnal.

Believe that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead. Believe and confess that God has made Jesus both Christ and Lord. If one confesses this by faith, then their spirit is born again. Once we are born again we work out our salvation by following the commands of Christ, living according to God's perfect guidance and instruction, which is the Torah (not to be confused with the cermonial law, or all the traditions of Israel that were added by man) Jesus was the living embodiment of the Torah and he summed up the Torah as" Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself". Love is a verb, requiring action or deeds or works. It is by denying our own selfish desires that we "crucify our flesh" and "pick up our Cross" to follow Jesus. When we do this we are "saved" from the power of sin in our life.

Not entirely. This is a mistake I think many evangelistic Christians mistake, thinking that the Roman Road depicts the entirety of Salvation. I believe the Road to Romans depicts the start of the process of salvation.

Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Learn to trust God and be lead by his spirit with one of the most important aspects being to learn how to let the Spirit of God convict you and quickly repent when you do sin. Through this we grow in God and our character is purged and refined so that our fruit is evident to others. They will know we are disciples of Christ by our love. God is love and so "doing his will" always starts out of love.

Yes, as our works are evidence that we Love God. "If you love me, you will follow my commands". Also to do works by faith, we must crucify our flesh and deny our own selfishness which is an important step in the sanctification of our souls. Our works are also the most effective form of evangelism. Works born out of faith and love have more power than any preaching, in drawing people to God.

Correct!

Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God, not even death, which is the wage of sin. All we will be reconciled to God and saved from the power of sin. Can you be born again and start on the road of salvation and turn off that road? Sure. I think the correct question is can I be born again, but still end up having to be sanctified in the Lake of Fire in the age to come. I think the answer is yes. If we don't continue and complete the process of salvation in this lifetime it only seems logical that we will need to in the age to come. It's not my place to try to figure out where others are in that process, though.

A summary of something does not supersede or negate what is being summarized. If you truly love God and love your neighbor as yourself you will not break the 10 commandments. Conversely you can look at the ten commandments as God's perfect guidance and instruction for loving him and loving our neighbors.

Excellent question. Why do we need to know if someone is saved? Should we treat someone differently if they are saved or not saved? I believe when someone is genuinely born again, that your spirit will recognize it. Of course discerning someone's spirit over an internet forum is much more difficult than in person. Jesus said we will recognize others by the fruit in their life. It's not worth it to loose sleep over someone else's opinion of the condition of your soul. If you are born again and being led by God's spirit, you will have an inner witness that you are in fellowship with God.

In the OT God called Israel to tear down the high places (sacred altars of false religions). But that was because the whole nation of Israel had truned and followed other God's so they were tearing down the false religion amongst themselves not of neighboring kingdoms. I beleive we are to be city on a hill and light unto the nations. If the heathen sees the light of the truth in our lives, we have no need to point out the false relgions around us.

I'm so glad I have a sock account to create the opportunity to lay out my beliefs in more detail LOL!
So....you have a sock account?
 
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I get the Paul part but I've never gotten that impression from his post maybe I've been blind for two years. Carry on though as it's all quite fascinating though I do find it odd when Christians call other Christians hypocrites. It's ironic.

I don't see the trinity as even biblical to really see that as an issue when the term appeared four hundred years later and it's never had an overall positive consensus. Not to say I deny Jesus being the word of God but I deny the theology that promotes the trinity and that it has no real bearing biblically rather is it was so important there is no prophecy, no mention by any of the OT writers or patriarchs. It's not something I'm going to worry myself over but maybe I'm not saved :)
The first mention of the Godhead/Trinity is found in Genesis 1.
 

Damien50

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The first mention of the Godhead/Trinity is found in Genesis 1.
That's cool and I know all the apologetics I just don't agree with the Trinitarian theology is all. Not something I'm really going to argue as I believe the bible makes it pretty self explanatory.
 

Daciple

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Apr 25, 2017
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I don't deny Jesus is God, I just don't argue that he is, since the word of God never explicitly says he is. The word of God says he is the Messiah and the Christ. Those two things aren't dependent on him being God. I'm not saying Jesus is not God, I just can't prove it, so why bother arguing. It doesn't bother or offend me when others say Jesus is God. My salvation is dependent on Christ being the Messiah and being Lord. That I believe and profess with my whole heart!
Actually the Word of God is explicit in it, IDK how you could even possibly argue against it if you believe Scripture:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word of God, is God and was made Flesh as Jesus Christ, doesnt get any more clear than that, but I suppose to someone who rejects huge portions of the Scriptures when it doesnt line up with his personal Religion, then I guess you are not too interested in accepting this definitive statement from God.

As to why it is important, what does God Himself say concerning Salvation:

Is 43:1 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hos 13:4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

There is No Savior besides the Lord thy God, to call Jesus Savior and deny His Deity is to create Jesus as an Idol and affirm that something besides the One True God being your Savior. That is blasphemy, something in Scripture God hates, but according to your Religion, apparently that isnt that big of a deal or heck probably doesnt even exist...

There are and have been many Christians that deny the Trinity since it is not explicitly taught in scripture. The only explicit teaching in scripture is that there is only one God. Not one explicit mention of God being three. Only scriptures that can be interpreted to imply that God is three in one.
As shown even when Scripture is given to explicitly state the Trinity directly in the verse you reject it. The Trinity formula has been clearly taught and was established by the earliest Churches, in fact the earliest writings of the earliest Church we posses has it right in their writings, but of course that doesnt matter. Again the problem I see with your Teachings is essentially NOTHING matters whatsoever, there is no such thing as False Doctrine there is nothing one NEEDS to believe to be Saved, heck even your understanding of Being Born Again doesnt preclude one from Hell. I mean even tho Scripture clearly teaches that Doctrine is 100% needed for Salvation you reject that. You literally believe anyone can believe anything and its all equal...

As for Trinity, here it is in the Didache, written probably around 50 AD:

1 Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," in running water; 2 but if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.

Nope, wrong again. I never denied this. I only state that there is opportunity to do so in the ages to come. I can tell you don't really read and contemplate, meditate or even pray about what I write, because you can't even accurately state the points I have made.
No Todd I completely and totally understand what you say, and that is exactly what your Doctrine boils down to, I can reject Christ today and die and still get into Heaven. You keep acting like believing in Jesus is something that is done in the next life which is again against Scripture. You will tell us Satan and the Fallen Angels get into Heaven or whatever term you want to use to describe the Eternal Final State of all things.

They believe now but they are still going into the Lake of Fire Todd:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

There is no redemption for Satan or those who die in their Sins and go to the Lake of Fire. I mean your entire ideology makes so little sense in the grand scheme of things its amazing you would even believe it.

Why Todd is Satan doing the things he is doing? Why is he trying so hard to tempt everyone into more and more Sin? If he and everyone else gets out of the Lake of Fire at some point then what exactly is Satans reason to try and get as many people in Hell with him? Tell me according to your Religion what is Satans motivation for doing what he does?

Yes I deny Paul was an Apostle as he was an Evangelist. That doesn't mean he was a liar. I think Paul genuinely believed he was an Apostle, I just think he was wrong. The fact that he was continually trying to convince others he was an Apostle also casts some doubt about how many believers at the time believed he was a genuine Apostle.
Either Paul is a liar or a crazy man, and you have never and probably never will address how you could possible think that Peter or any of the Churches or James or any of the Apostles or Elders would be okay with him continually declaring himself to be an Apostle if they didnt consider him to be one. It is outright insanity to think that any of them would be okay with Paul declaring to THEM and everyone else that he was an Apostle if he was not called to be an Apostle.

Show me one scripture that says belief that Jesus is God is neccesary for salvation. Show me one scripture that says belief in the Trinity is neccesary for salvation.
I have already given you the Scripture that says that Jesus is God, and what does Scripture declare about how one is Saved?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Only Begotten Son of God which is to say God made Flesh, one MUST believe on Him to be Saved period. You however will tell the Lost that they dont need to Believe on God made Flesh, they will still get into Heaven one day after they "burn their Sins off" in the Lake of Fire. More False and Garbage Doctrine...

If Jesus is God which He is and we see that the Holy Spirit is God which He is, then how can one deny God and still attain Salvation? I mean well outside of the False Religion you have made up that says you can deny God and attain Salvation...

Wrong again. You are totally misrepresenting what I believe.
Not at all, tell me you dont believe Satan is going to get to "Heaven" and so we are clear from now on when I refer to Heaven I mean the end all absolute state of Eternity. If you tell me that Satan will forever be kept out of the place where Born Again Christians who believe in this lifetime now end up then I have misrepresented your beliefs, if you tell me that Satan will be there with Born Again Christians then I am 100% accurately detailing the epitome of your made up Religion...

Now your just resorting to slander and libel.
How is this libel or slander, can or can not one do whatever they want in this life, follow their own will and it be their Law and still attain Heaven? And I am explaining how I see your Religion from my perspective, clearly others can read and comment on how they see it. Why is it when I reject your views you have problem with it but I dont see you telling those who agree with you to keep it to themselves and let others decide for themselves how they want to view it? I mean I know why, but my point is, I am doing the same thing as one who agree with you, I am giving my perspective of what your Religion is...

Do I take the words of God and Jesus over the words of a self proclaimed Apostle? Yes, Guilty as charged! I will stand before God with a clean conscience and if I find out that I was wrong about Paul, I can live with that. I'd rather make that mistake then have God say "you made the choice to believe a man over me"
So even if God were to tell you, you rejected not only Paul but Me you are ok with that? I guess you would be, I mean reading the next post you basically believe you are going to Hell no matter what and you will get out of it eventually so meh...
 

rainerann

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Mar 18, 2017
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4,550
It's a joke between him and I because a psychopathic stalker accused us of being the same person.
One that you should stop using considering the fact that you actually have sock accounts. I just don't think Todd just is one of them. I guess we can't use the at symbol anymore, but you can search disenfranchised despot is one of your sock accounts. I'm guessing you have at least two more than this.

I wasn't going to say anything because you are still young and maybe trying to goof off a little bit, but watching you act all cocky about having a sock as though it were a joke when you actually have sock accounts, is just too much for me to take right now. Most of us who are here weren't around when this became a joke so the joke is dead and you probably shouldn't use it like it is something funny and simultaneously tell people who your sock identities are. One of these days, you just might rub that person the wrong way.
 

TokiEl

Superstar
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
7,239
I


I can’t. I’ve tried already & failed miserably.

Revelation 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Since you lied, God says ALL LIARS will be cast into the Lake of fire, which includes YOU.

You are simply NOT CAPABLE of following ALL of God’s commands

(by the way, there are WAY MORE than just 10
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”....James 4:17 KJB)

it is humanly IMPOSSIBLE,
& if you say it isn’t you lie again, because only Christ did it because He was God manifest in the flesh.

Your issue is the same as Todd’s.....PRIDE & UNBELIEF.

Because of your pride, you refuse to admit that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour, so until you HUMBLE yourself before God, you will remain spiritually BLIND.

Until you come to terms with the fact that you are a sinner that deserves to go to Hell, you will NEVER believe on Jesus Christ.


And until you BELIEVE, and trust Him ALONE to save you, He won’t, because you are not willing to believe Him.

You do not know how salvation works.

The only reason we can be forgiven for our crimes is because God atoned for them with His blood. And so we repent of our crimes and stop sinning. And God will forgive.

Stop making excuses for continuing in sin.

We believe Jesus Christ died for our sins and so we stop sinning and start to obey His commandments.

If you think you can continue in sin and still be saved then you got a problem.
 
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1,367
You do not know how salvation works.

The only reason we can be forgiven for our crimes is because God atoned for them with His blood. And so we repent of our crimes and stop sinning. And God will forgive.

Stop making excuses for continuing in sin.

We believe Jesus Christ died for our sins and so we stop sinning and start to obey His commandments.

If you think you can continue in sin and still be saved then you got a problem.

I am well aware of how I got saved & I just laid it out for you how you can be saved, but you don’t believe it.

Why do you keep saying I am making excuses for sin?

I do not condone sin in the least.

But, considering that you think you have no sin, I am not surprised by your grandiose thoughts of self-righteousness, as you keep parroting the same phrases, essentially calling yourself as good as Jesus.

You would be wise to fear God. Seek the Lord , while He May be found, lest you be turned over to a reprobate mind.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 

Damien50

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One that you should stop using considering the fact that you actually have sock accounts. I just don't think Todd just is one of them. I guess we can't use the at symbol anymore, but you can search disenfranchised despot is one of your sock accounts. I'm guessing you have at least two more than this.

I wasn't going to say anything because you are still young and maybe trying to goof off a little bit, but watching you act all cocky about having a sock as though it were a joke when you actually have sock accounts, is just too much for me to take right now. Most of us who are here weren't around when this became a joke so the joke is dead and you probably shouldn't use it like it is something funny and simultaneously tell people who your sock identities are. One of these days, you just might rub that person the wrong way.
No.
 
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