The Frutiless Thread

[Claire Rousseau]

I would explain that we have all sinned in the sight of God, but that God sent his son to show us the way back to him. I would tell him that we can be freed from the power of sin, because Jesus who was sinless, was crucified and overcame the power of sin for us. Jesus being resurrected form the dead is the assurance that though we will die becuase of our sins, death will not win, as we will all be resurrected in the ages to come.

I would tell him to Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38) I would explain what baptism is and tell him that physical water baptism is a symbol of our faith and obedience to Christ, but that the baptism of fire (the Holy Ghost) is the real thing. Fire is God's method of purification. By living the words and commandments that Christ spoke, the fire of the Holy Ghost will purify us.

I would tell him that Jesus summed up the commands of God with "Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself". I would tell them, If there is anyone that you have bitteness or unforgiveness in your heart for, try to contact them and forgive them. Likewise if you have offended another try to contact them and apologize and ask for forgivness. If you can't contact these people directly then repent, the tell God you are sorry, ask him for forgiveness for those that you hurt and tell him you forgive those that have hurt you. If you forgive others God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14-15) If you humble yourself God will give you grace and exalt you. (1 Peter 5:5-6 and James 4:6-7)

Of course this all hypothetical, but if this person was serious and genuine, I would give them my cell phone number and ask them to call me so I could help them and lead them towards God the last two weeks of their life. Of course I would also encourage them to believe God to intervene in whatever the situation is that they think they only have two weeks to live.

That’s a false Gospel.

In your (hypothetical, of course) witness scenario, you left out the 2 most crucial points:

The “Bad” news & The “Good” news.

The bad news being the fact that the Bible (God’s Word) states that the wages of sin is death and Hell. Sinners that are not saved go to Everlasting fire.

The good news is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Because God loves us, He wants us to be saved from the Hell we deserve, so He sent His Son to save us.That Jesus was born of a virgin, sinless throughout His entire life, was crucified and died on the Cross IN OUR stead/FOR OUR sins to pay the full penalty for us with His own blood. He was buried and 3 days later rose BODILY from the grave.

Because Jesus Christ paid for our sins, we can ask God to give us salvation.

You should have then asked your friend “Do you believe this?”

If he said yes, you could have helped him pray to ask God for the gift of salvation right then & there, and you would both know before departure that he was saved.

Salvation is not a process. It literally happens the instant you believe, as quick as lightning, and you know it when it happens.

 

[Todd]

I am being honest.
How many people have been drawn to Jesus via fear of Hell *first*? After they become a Christian THEN as they grow in faith - they realise how much love was demonstrated by God the Father, by putting His begotten Son on the cross as a sacrifice for sin.
E.g. Is a drug-using, lying, tax-evading adulterer going to turn from his sins if he hears the reasurrance "don't worry mate, you'll get into Heaven - eventually - no matter what "?

And how many drug unsing, lying, tax-evading adulters have turned from their sins when they have heard that they will burn in hell for eternity.

I disagree with your notion that there would be less Christians without the teaching of eternal torment. The reason the church is full of lukewarm unfrutiful Christians is because they are only there to "get out of hell" and think they will by just "beleiveing" without ever truly repenting, being sanctified or obeying the words of Jesus.

UR does not eliminate the punishment of unbeleivers. The Lake of fire and punishment and correction that awaits unbelievers is still not something I want my friend or loved ones to experience.

Honestly how well has telling people they are going to burn in hell in eternity worked for you. How many people have your lead to true life changing frutiful faith in Jesus Christ with that strategy. I'm not asking how many people said the sinners prayer, but how many people truly have grown to great faith and trust in Christ.

I used to employ that strategy a long time ago and saw very few actaul lives changed. Even before I accepted UR, I found that loving people and letting God use me to meet a need in their life was much more effective in drawing them to Christ, without ever even having to discuss eternal torment or hell.

Can you provide an example in scripture where Jesus or anyone else used the fear of hell to bring someone to God?

I used the serach function to list all the places on this forum I have discussed UR and eternal torment.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/search/74225/?page=2&q=Universal+Reconciliation&c[users]=Todd&o=date
Also some threads were UR and ET come up
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/does-gods-foreknowledge-really-imply-determinism.4629/#post-164836
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/can-a-christian-lose-salvation.342/

I don't need to debate UR again for my own sake, but if you are truly interested in at least considering and investigating the possbility of UR I would be more than willing to PM you a much more in depth look at UR and I why I believe it. If you no interest in giving it an honest, thoughtful and sincere investigation, I would rather not waste the time.

 

[Todd]

That’s a false Gospel.

In your (hypothetical, of course) witness scenario, you left out the 2 most crucial points:

The “Bad” news & The “Good” news.

The bad news being the fact that the Bible (God’s Word) states that the wages of sin is death and Hell. Sinners that are not saved go to Everlasting fire.

The good news is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Because God loves us, He wants us to be saved from the Hell we deserve, so He sent His Son to save us.That Jesus was born of a virgin, sinless throughout His entire life, was crucified and died on the Cross IN OUR stead/FOR OUR sins to pay the full penalty for us with His own blood. He was buried and 3 days later rose BODILY from the grave.

Because Jesus Christ paid for our sins, we can ask God to give us salvation.

You should have then asked your friend “Do you believe this?”

If he said yes, you could have helped him pray to ask God for the gift of salvation right then & there, and you would both know before departure that he was saved.

Salvation is not a process. It literally happens the instant you believe, as quick as lightning, and you know it when it happens.

Is that what Peter preached in the first post pentecostal salvation sermon given? Or did Peter preach a false gospel also?

38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'
40 Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, `Be saved from this perverse generation;'
41 then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added on that day, as it were, three thousand souls,

No mention of everlasting fire, or promise of going to heaven. Just the promise of remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter exhorts them to be saved from a perverse generation, not hell.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Is that what Peter preached in the first post pentecostal salvation sermon given? Or did Peter preach a false gospel also?

38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'
40 Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, `Be saved from this perverse generation;'
41 then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added on that day, as it were, three thousand souls,

No mention of everlasting fire, or promise of going to heaven. Just the promise of remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter exhorts them to be saved from a perverse generation, not hell.

Acts 2:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I would explain that we have all sinned in the sight of God, but that God sent his son to show us the way back to him. I would tell him that we can be freed from the power of sin, because Jesus who was sinless, was crucified and overcame the power of sin for us. Jesus being resurrected form the dead is the assurance that though we will die becuase of our sins, death will not win, as we will all be resurrected in the ages to come.

I would tell him to Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38) I would explain what baptism is and tell him that physical water baptism is a symbol of our faith and obedience to Christ, but that the baptism of fire (the Holy Ghost) is the real thing. Fire is God's method of purification. By living the words and commandments that Christ spoke, the fire of the Holy Ghost will purify us.

I would tell him that Jesus summed up the commands of God with "Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself". I would tell them, If there is anyone that you have bitteness or unforgiveness in your heart for, try to contact them and forgive them. Likewise if you have offended another try to contact them and apologize and ask for forgivness. If you can't contact these people directly then repent, the tell God you are sorry, ask him for forgiveness for those that you hurt and tell him you forgive those that have hurt you. If you forgive others God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14-15) If you humble yourself God will give you grace and exalt you. (1 Peter 5:5-6 and James 4:6-7)

Of course this all hypothetical, but if this person was serious and genuine, I would give them my cell phone number and ask them to call me so I could help them and lead them towards God the last two weeks of their life. Of course I would also encourage them to believe God to intervene in whatever the situation is that they think they only have two weeks to live.

Additionally, baptism is done in the name of The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Also, it is pointless to get baptized unless one first BELIEVES the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

Acts 8:
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

 

[Todd]

Acts 2:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Yeah I see nothing about eternal torment or heaven there. Hades is simply the grave not eternal torment.

 

[Todd]

Additionally, baptism is done in the name of The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Also, it is pointless to get baptized unless one first BELIEVES the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

Acts 8:
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Agreed!

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Is that what Peter preached in the first post pentecostal salvation sermon given? Or did Peter preach a false gospel also?

38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'
40 Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, `Be saved from this perverse generation;'
41 then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added on that day, as it were, three thousand souls,

No mention of everlasting fire, or promise of going to heaven. Just the promise of remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter exhorts them to be saved from a perverse generation, not hell.

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Those are words directly from Jesus Himself.

He thrice warns of Hell being a LITERAL PLACE OF FIRE that NEVER ends, along with other horrible things like worms.

When God’s Word states something three times in a row, you’d better pay attention.

Don’t tell me this is a parable. Christ is describing a LITERAL, everlasting place of such severe, intense and unending fiery torture, that He suggests it is BETTER to cut off your own hand, foot or tongue than go to Hell.

That sounds extreme, so if that’s better than going to Hell, then Hell is NOT where you want to be!

He isn’t just kidding, Todd, and you need to open your eyes and heed His warning and STOP deceiving others from learning how to be saved from Hell, unless you are fine with them going to Hell, but I am NOT, so I will continue warning them of it in hope that they believe on Christ to be saved from it.

If you care at all about God you will warn people as well, or you will be complicit in their fiery punishment in Hell.

 

[Todd]

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Those are words directly from Jesus Himself.

He thrice warns of Hell being a LITERAL PLACE OF FIRE that NEVER ends, along with other horrible things like worms.

When God’s Word states something three times in a row, you’d better pay attention.

Don’t tell me this is a parable. Christ is describing a LITERAL, everlasting place of such severe, intense and unending fiery torture, that He suggests it is BETTER to cut off your own hand, foot or tongue than go to Hell.

That sounds extreme, so if that’s better than going to Hell, then Hell is NOT where you want to be!

He isn’t just kidding, Todd, and you need to open your eyes and heed His warning and STOP deceiving others from learning how to be saved from Hell, unless you are fine with them going to Hell, but I am NOT, so I will continue warning them of it in hope that they believe on Christ to be saved from it.

If you care at all about God you will warn people as well, or you will be complicit in their fiery punishment in Hell.

So which of your body parts have you cut off Claire?

Another case where your beloved KJV is misleading you. Gehenna was a literal physical place outside Jerusalem. Jesus wasn’t talking about an eternal place of torment.

 

[DavidSon]

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Those are words directly from Jesus Himself.

He thrice warns of Hell being a LITERAL PLACE OF FIRE that NEVER ends, along with other horrible things like worms.

When God’s Word states something three times in a row, you’d better pay attention.

Don’t tell me this is a parable. Christ is describing a LITERAL, everlasting place of such severe, intense and unending fiery torture, that He suggests it is BETTER to cut off your own hand, foot or tongue than go to Hell.

That sounds extreme, so if that’s better than going to Hell, then Hell is NOT where you want to be!

He isn’t just kidding, Todd, and you need to open your eyes and heed His warning and STOP deceiving others from learning how to be saved from Hell, unless you are fine with them going to Hell, but I am NOT, so I will continue warning them of it in hope that they believe on Christ to be saved from it.

If you care at all about God you will warn people as well, or you will be complicit in their fiery punishment in Hell.

I disagree. Not one word of that passage mentions hell as a "place." Hell is a "fire that is unquenchable." I believe the statement has more to do with suffering in guilt, which is worse than any torment. Re-read the phrase, "into hell-fire." These, along with other Hebraic concepts, are tools Jesus used to communicate a deeper understanding. In the same way the kingdom of God isn't described only as a literal place- it's also a state of mind and hope for human society.

 

[elsbet]

So which of your body parts have you cut off Claire?

Another case where your beloved KJV is misleading you. Gehenna was a literal physical place outside Jerusalem. Jesus wasn’t talking about an eternal place of torment.

And Gehenna was... ?

People love to say O He just meant Gehenna, as though the Creator would give such a dire warning about a place that really wasn't all that bad.

Please.

 

[JoChris]

And how many drug unsing, lying, tax-evading adulters have turned from their sins when they have heard that they will burn in hell for eternity.

I disagree with your notion that there would be less Christians without the teaching of eternal torment. The reason the church is full of lukewarm unfrutiful Christians is because they are only there to "get out of hell" and think they will by just "beleiveing" without ever truly repenting, being sanctified or obeying the words of Jesus.

UR does not eliminate the punishment of unbeleivers. The Lake of fire and punishment and correction that awaits unbelievers is still not something I want my friend or loved ones to experience.

Honestly how well has telling people they are going to burn in hell in eternity worked for you. How many people have your lead to true life changing frutiful faith in Jesus Christ with that strategy. I'm not asking how many people said the sinners prayer, but how many people truly have grown to great faith and trust in Christ.

I used to employ that strategy a long time ago and saw very few actaul lives changed. Even before I accepted UR, I found that loving people and letting God use me to meet a need in their life was much more effective in drawing them to Christ, without ever even having to discuss eternal torment or hell.

Can you provide an example in scripture where Jesus or anyone else used the fear of hell to bring someone to God?

I used the serach function to list all the places on this forum I have discussed UR and eternal torment.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/search/74225/?page=2&q=Universal+Reconciliation&c[users]=Todd&o=date
Also some threads were UR and ET come up
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/does-gods-foreknowledge-really-imply-determinism.4629/#post-164836
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/can-a-christian-lose-salvation.342/

I don't need to debate UR again for my own sake, but if you are truly interested in at least considering and investigating the possbility of UR I would be more than willing to PM you a much more in depth look at UR and I why I believe it. If you no interest in giving it an honest, thoughtful and sincere investigation, I would rather not waste the time.

Charles Finney is (in)famous for taking your approach. As well as teaching a method of "earning" one's salvation, numbers of new converts was his pride.
https://graceonlinelibrary.org/church-history/false-teachers/finney-the-aftermath-by-monte-e-wilson/

Saying the right words, in the right way, to the right individual to "close the deal" i.e. convince a person they chosen Jesus.
Some recent statistics from (Finney style) evangelism crusades: https://sermons.faithlife.com/sermons/118586-here's-the-statistics-on-"modern-finney-ism"

I have seen "the love your neighbour and they'll come to Christ" viewpoint in Seeker-sensitive churches. I didn't see changed lives there. I love my atheist family members (husband and sons) , love hasn't "worked" on them either.

How many people become born again without hearing the Gospel - which explains salvation (saving from eternal Hell)?

Others have already shown you Hell verses and you "word-game" away like any other Hell-denying person of whatever variety. I won't waste time discussing this issue with you as you are determined to ignore the bible's words on hell. Link for Christians. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Charles Finney is (in)famous for taking your approach. As well as teaching a method of "earning" one's salvation, numbers of new converts was his pride.
https://graceonlinelibrary.org/church-history/false-teachers/finney-the-aftermath-by-monte-e-wilson/

Saying the right words, in the right way, to the right individual to "close the deal" i.e. convince a person they chosen Jesus.
Some recent statistics from (Finney style) evangelism crusades: https://sermons.faithlife.com/sermons/118586-here's-the-statistics-on-"modern-finney-ism"

I have seen "the love your neighbour and they'll come to Christ" viewpoint in Seeker-sensitive churches. I didn't see changed lives there. I love my atheist family members (husband and sons) , love hasn't "worked" on them either.

How many people become born again without hearing the Gospel - which explains salvation (saving from eternal Hell)?

Others have already shown you Hell verses and you "word-game" away like any other Hell-denying person of whatever variety. I won't waste time discussing this issue with you as you are determined to ignore the bible's words on hell. Link for Christians. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/

What this says to me is that you believe the practical doctrine of Christ is worthless and that only fear of an eternal torture chamber is why you should be a Christian. It’s the equivalent of “giving” someone your wallet with a gun to your forehead.

 

[JoChris]

What this says to me is that you believe the practical doctrine of Christ is worthless and that only fear of an eternal torture chamber is why you should be a Christian. It’s the equivalent of “giving” someone your wallet with a gun to your forehead.

Yes, that yours is the standard atheist response.

Instead of seeing: 1. ALL people are damned unless they believe in Jesus Christ

you see: 2. all people are damned UNLESS they believe in Jesus Christ

You see the glass as half empty and add pollutants of your own to convince others not to drink it either.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Yes, that yours is the standard atheist response.

Instead of seeing: 1. ALL people are damned unless they believe in Jesus Christ

you see: 2. all people are damned UNLESS they believe in Jesus Christ

You see the glass as half empty and add pollutants of your own to convince others not to drink it either.

I’m not an Atheist and I never have been, but maybe they are correct in this reasoning.

Yes so God creates us ( against our will ) and damns us all to eternal torture unless we follow the one correct Christian teaching. ( out of thousands of them, and thousands more religions )

I’m not sure what you are saying to me, but if I see 1 that makes your idea of God even more evil.

 

[JoChris]

I’m not an Atheist and I never have been, but maybe they are correct in this reasoning.

Yes so God creates us ( against our will ) and damns us all to eternal torture unless we follow the one correct Christian teaching. ( out of thousands of them, and thousands more religions )

I’m not sure what you are saying to me, but if I see 1 that makes your idea of God even more evil.

I thought you were one because I have seen many atheists use that argument.

The bible contains a lot of challenging verses. The ones which reveal that people who remain in unbelief will go to Hell are hated by many (most) people, including many self-professed Christians.

If the whole message is not read it is easy to jump to conclusions. e.g. Gospel is not only about saving from Hellfire (next life). Jesus changes our life here as well.

Jesus said [showing He fulfilled this prophecy]
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

 

[Todd]

And Gehenna was... ?

People love to say O He just meant Gehenna, as though the Creator would give such a dire warning about a place that really wasn't all that bad.

Please.

Gehenna wasn’t a place of eternal torment. It was a valley where in OT times idolatrous King’s sacrificed their children to Molech. The connotation that is was a place for punishment actually comes from the Talmud, though even then it was not considered eternal. But God himself said in Jeremiah 7:31 that the idea of literally burning people never entered his heart. Biblical proof that eternal torment is not from God because it goes against his very character.

Since Gehenna was a literal physical place we need to look other places to help us interpret what Jesus was inferring figuratively by referencing it. We find that explanation in James 3:5-6. Gehenna is the figurative picture of how sin sets our life on fire. The angel in Matthew 1:20-21 says Jesus came to save us from Sin, not from eternal Torment.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Gehenna wasn’t a place of eternal torment. It was a valley where in OT times idolatrous King’s sacrificed their children to Molech. The connotation that is was a place for punishment actually comes from the Talmud, though even then it was not considered eternal. But God himself said in Jeremiah 7:31 that the idea of literally burning people never entered his heart. Biblical proof that eternal torment is not from God because it goes against his very character.

Since Gehenna was a literal physical place we need to look other places to help us interpret what Jesus was inferring figuratively by referencing it. We find that explanation in James 3:5-6. Gehenna is the figurative picture of how sin sets our life on fire. The angel in Matthew 1:20-21 says Jesus came to save us from Sin, not from eternal Torment.

While tradition does hold what you say about Gehenna, it is also worth noting that it was an ancient land full that was perpetually burning for sanitary reasons.

 

[Todd]

I have seen "the love your neighbour and they'll come to Christ" viewpoint in Seeker-sensitive churches. I didn't see changed lives there. I love my atheist family members (husband and sons) , love hasn't "worked" on them either.

Well apparently threatening them that they will burn in hell hasn’t either, eh?

How many people become born again without hearing the Gospel - which explains salvation (saving from eternal Hell)?

How many superficial Christians with no fruit or evidence of real change are in the Chirch because they think the have a get out hell free card because the “believe”?

Others have already shown you Hell verses and you "word-game" away like any other Hell-denying person of whatever variety. I won't waste time discussing this issue with you as you are determined to ignore the bible's words on hell. Link for Christians. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/

Nobodies shown me anything convincing about a place of eternal torment. It’s contrary to God’s nature. It’s disgusting that you would think a loving, merciful and Good God would torment anyone eternally with no purpose what so ever.

I can at least respect the viewpoint of annihilation as it is not as repugnant and disgusting as eternal torment. I just see too many scriptures that affirm reconciliation of all to accept it.

 

[Todd]

While tradition does hold what you say about Gehenna, it is also worth noting that it was an ancient land full that was perpetually burning for sanitary reasons.

Yes it was. I was going to expound on how it was a place to burn the impurities of refuse. While not a place one would want to partake of, It had a redeeming purpose. Eternal torment has no redeeming purpose unless you believe revenge is a redeeming virtue.