The Frutiless Thread

floss

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Thank you Floss. It is a prayer I should pray way more.
God’s awaiting for us to boldly come to Him with our complaints, once we’ve exhausted ourself. Please consider fasting and praying for your love one, Godbless your family <3
 

JoChris

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You're not the only one who can copy paste links to Bible verses. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+3:7-10&version=KJV
On laptop.
But those verses don't contradict each other.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contrast:
1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This where it is helpful to know the false teachings that were being spread at the time of 1 John being written.
https://www.crossroad.to/charts/gnosticism.html, http://www.blogos.org/exploringtheword/1-john-gnosticism.php
Gnosticism sometimes resulted in "reckless licentiousness" or extremely immoral behaviour.
 

TokiEl

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In your view, what happens if a Christian has, for an example, an angry outburst at a misbehaving child and calls them an "idiot"?

Is that something a genuine, born again person might do?
Did you know that ?

Did you know that Paul state that we now uphold the Law ?
 

TokiEl

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On laptop.
But those verses don't contradict each other.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contrast:
1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This where it is helpful to know the false teachings that were being spread at the time of 1 John being written.
https://www.crossroad.to/charts/gnosticism.html, http://www.blogos.org/exploringtheword/1-john-gnosticism.php
Gnosticism sometimes resulted in "reckless licentiousness" or extremely immoral behaviour.
One who is born of God does not sin according to John.

And the reason being because the Spirit of God dwells within him/her.
 

JoChris

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One who is born of God does not sin according to John.

And the reason being because the Spirit of God dwells within him/her.

* Echo*
Have you been without ONE SINGLE SIN since you believed in Jesus TokiEI?
 

Maes17

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Anyone thess days going without a single sin.
I'd like to meet you. That's impressive and respectful
 

TokiEl

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* Echo*
Have you been without ONE SINGLE SIN since you believed in Jesus TokiEI?
1 John 3 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


In the Scriptures in this case in 1 John 3:7-9 the author John wrote that... Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

So who sins ? Those who have not been born of God !


But what sins are John talking about ? All sins are not the same ! There are sins which lead to death and sins which do not.

Do you know the difference ?
 

JoChris

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1 John 3 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


In the Scriptures in this case in 1 John 3:7-9 the author John wrote that... Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

So who sins ? Those who have not been born of God !


But what sins are John talking about ? All sins are not the same ! There are sins which lead to death and sins which do not.

Do you know the difference ?
Are you ever going to answer the direct question? Are YOU still a sinner TokiEI, despite loving God and trying to serve Him?
 

DavidSon

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1 John 3 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


In the Scriptures in this case in 1 John 3:7-9 the author John wrote that... Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

So who sins ? Those who have not been born of God !


But what sins are John talking about ? All sins are not the same ! There are sins which lead to death and sins which do not.

Do you know the difference ?
What a chapter! That is great. I see these writings as encouragement. Like, set your aim high. "Be ye perfect."

The author is talking about the fruits of living a clean life. Love is bestowed on us as children not of this world. We purify ourselves and choose not to sin.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Lifestyle! These are the fruits of living right, living with compassion. Love for the brotherhood. Yet this inspiration doesn't take away from the miracle of Grace. It's only by the gift of God one confesses in Christ. Life is one big miracle that only through his mercy are we given such love and understanding.

Faith, Grace, Works, Blessings, they're all ideals to communicate the good life we strive for. There's no contradiction, just different points of view.
 

TokiEl

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Are you ever going to answer the direct question? Are YOU still a sinner TokiEI, despite loving God and trying to serve Him?
Those who are specifically said to be born of God do not sin according to John.

This is Scripture and the beloved of the Lord unambiguously state that those born of God do not sin.

In other words it's not possible to both sin and be born of God at the same time.

Either you sin or you are born of God. You can't have both.
 

TokiEl

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What a chapter! That is great. I see these writings as encouragement. Like, set your aim high. "Be ye perfect."

The author is talking about the fruits of living a clean life. Love is bestowed on us as children not of this world. We purify ourselves and choose not to sin.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Lifestyle! These are the fruits of living right, living with compassion. Love for the brotherhood. Yet this inspiration doesn't take away from the miracle of Grace. It's only by the gift of God one confesses in Christ. Life is one big miracle that only through his mercy are we given such love and understanding.

Faith, Grace, Works, Blessings, they're all ideals to communicate the good life we strive for. There's no contradiction, just different points of view.
A true Christian hears the Lord and acts accordingly... they obey the Ten Commandments because they love the Lord and their neighbours. They assimilate the words of Jesus Christ and put them into action. That's right lifestyle !
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Those who are specifically said to be born of God do not sin according to John.

This is Scripture and the beloved of the Lord unambiguously state that those born of God do not sin.

In other words it's not possible to both sin and be born of God at the same time.

Either you sin or you are born of God. You can't have both.
OK... Your hypothesis of Christian life requires scriptural and real-world cross examination:-

As you are aware, there are sins of omission as well as comission. Jesus identifies that there are sins of the heart as well as actions.

Three questions to you then...

1: Is it your belief that the disciples and early church were sinless at all times and in all ways.
2: Are genuine, born again Christians sinless at all times and in all ways.
3: Would one "post-salvation" sin of any sort nullify their status as saved individuals and therefore condemn them to eternal judgement, or would sin of any kind suggest they were not saved in the first place?

Your position seems to argue for this view but I would like to properly understand it.
 
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TokiEl

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OK... Your hypothesis of Christian life requires scriptural and real-world cross examination:-
It's not my hypothesis.

It's specifically stated in the Scriptures that those who are born of God do not sin.


So you are the one who call a passage from the Scriptures for hypothesis... and that's radical or heretical.



As you are aware, there are sins of omission as well as comission. Jesus identifies that there are sins of the heart as well as actions.

Three questions to you then...

1: Is it your belief that the disciples and early church were sinless at all times and in all ways.


2: Are genuine, born again Christians sinless at all times and in all ways.


3: Would one "post-salvation" sin of any sort nullify their status as saved individuals and therefore condemn them to eternal judgement, or would sin of any kind suggest they were not saved in the first place?

Your position seems to argue for this view but I would like to properly understand it.
I believe that the first Christians... some were born of God and some were not... just like today.

It's specifically stated in the Scriptures that those born of God do not sin... and that is authoritative.

There is no sin in those born of God... and how could there be ? When the Spirit of God dwells within... how can one sin ?

How can one cheat lie kill or steal if one is born of God ? It's not possible !
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Do Born Again People Sin?
1 John 3:9
by Bob Wilkin

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in Him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This verse is often cited as teaching that "genuine" believers will not practice sin. They will not sin habitually, 1 John 3:9 is said to teach.

Notice how various versions and paraphrases translate the first part of the verse. Some suggest that habitual sin is in view. The New American Standard Version reads: "No one who is born of God practices sin." The Living Bible reads: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning." The Amplified Bible has: "No one born [begotten] of God [deliberately and knowingly] habitually practices sin."

On the other hand, other translations suggest an absolute understanding—that the born of God person doesn't sin at all. The New King James Version, the one cited above, reads: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." The New International Version has: "No one who is born of God continues to sin."

The translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The habitual sin view posits that John was teaching the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints here. "True" believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the "genuine" believer are merely occasional aberrations.

The second position has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn't sin even occasionally. It is sinless. John is viewed as having called his readers to abide in Christ and live in keeping with their born of God new natures.

Which is right?

The habitual sin view cites for evidence the use of the present tense (poiei).

There are grave problems with this argument. For one thing, the present tense, unaided by qualifying words, does not mean what the habitual sin view suggests. In Greek when the present tense occurs it can be understood in a number of ways, one of which is the habitual present. However, the habitual present refers to events which occur over and over again repeatedly. If John was saying this about believers sinning he would be saying that believers do not sin repeatedly. If believers sin daily—as all believers do (cf. 1 John 1:8, 10)—then they sin habitually in the grammatical sense. I. Howard Marshall commented concerning the tense argument:

[It] involves translators in stressing the present continuous form of the verb in a way which they do not do elsewhere in the New Testament. (The Epistles of John, NICNT, p.180)​
Similarly, C. H. Dodd writes:

All this [the idea that a believer does not sin habitually] is true. Yet it is legitimate to doubt whether the reader could be expected to grasp so subtle a doctrine simply upon the basis of a precise distinction of tenses without further guidance. (The Johannine Epistles, p. 79)​
Another difficulty with this understanding is that one wonders why God would preserve believers from being dominated by sin and yet not from sinning altogether. I. Howard Marshall writes:

If believers do not sin habitually because God's seed remains in Him (3:9b), it is hard to understand why God would preserve believers from some sins, but not from all sins. We must, therefore, wonder whether an important point of interpretation can be made to rest on what has been called a grammatical subtlety. (The Epistles of John, p.180)​
The habitual sin view is also ruled out by the context. In verse 5 John said that there is no sin in Christ. He clearly meant that there is absolutely no sin in Him. Then in the very next sentence he said that those who abide in Christ do not sin. He could hardly have meant that Christ sins not at all and those who abide in Him sin but not a lot. John's point is clearly that sin is never an expression of abiding in Christ. When we abide we do not sin at all.

Verse 9 is a further development of this point. No believer ever sins as an expression of his new nature. Insofar as the believer expresses his new nature in his experience, he will not sin because God's seed remains in him (1 John 3:9b).

Alford notes that "If the child of God falls into sin, it is an act against [his] nature" (Hebrews-Revelation, p.465). Likewise, Brooke writes:

The fact that he has been begotten of God excludes the possibility of his committing sin as an expression of his true character, though actual sins may, and do, occur so far as he fails from weakness to realize his true character. (The Johannine Epistles, p.89)​
First John 3:9 does not teach the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Indeed, no passage does. God perseveres. Saints at best fail daily. First John 3:9 is a call to holiness. Our new natures are pure and holy. Let us live in our experience like we are in our position. Of course, there is a mystery here. John said in 1 John 1:8,10 that believers cannot attain to sinless perfection in their experience. However, we can allow our new natures to dominate our experience so that we live consistently godly lives. May we live like who we are: children of the Holy One who has saved us by His amazing, free grace.

https://faithalone.org/magazine/y1990/90march2.html
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I was praying for wisdom on some of the issues raised by this thread and I came across some from 400 years ago. I almost didn't bother with this talk as it didn't look "exciting" enough. How wrong I was! I'm going to listen to it again and I commend it to anyone who has felt frustrated at the supposed tug of war between Paul and James over faith and works.


Psalm 139

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
 
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TokiEl

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1 John 2 3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.


What commandments ? What law is that ?

This is the main stream Christian response... as most have absolutely no clue that they are obligated to obey the Commandments !
 

Renegade

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Repentance and baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is the Scripturally prescribed method and medicine for forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy spirit.
Yet in Acts 10 the Holy Spirit is given to gentiles without repentance or baptism...

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
 

TokiEl

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Yet in Acts 10 the Holy Spirit is given to gentiles without repentance or baptism...

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 2 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

Renegade

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Acts 2 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.

Holy spirit given before baptism...
 

elsbet

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Acts 10
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.

Holy spirit given before baptism...

And now we all understand the meaning of GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY.

He does what He wants. :)
 
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