The Frutiless Thread

[TokiEl]

If you love God and your neighbour as yourself and can prove that... you are of course welcome into the eternal Kingdom of God.

And that would exclude most people.

 

[Todd]

If you love God and your neighbour as yourself and can prove that... you are of course welcome into the eternal Kingdom of God.

And that would exclude most people.

We may disagree on alot of other things, but this statement right here trumps all of that!
Best post I've read here in awhile!

 

[Thunderian]

I have a specific question for @JoChris.

How's your summer going?

 

[Todd]

That is a ridiculous argument. That is on the same level your as claiming Paul didn't preach the resurrected Christ. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-muslum-christian.5045/page-13#post-182475

When did I ever claim Paul didn't preach a resurreted Christ? I said that Paul denied what Jesus preached in the flesh. Paul never spoke are cared to learn anything about Christ's ministry in the flesh, only preaching the mystical Jesus of his vision. I never claimed Paul did not preach that Jesus was raised from the dead. It's Paul's rejection of what Jesus taught in the flesh that I have issue with.

It is possible to say the same thing using different words. e.g. someone could say that my husband is my spouse or my sons' father. He is the same person, different context.
I hope other people are able to see synonyms despite you refusing to do that.

That is one of the the poorest logical arguments I have read in a while. You know you can be a spouse with being a father? Just like you can be a beloved brother without being an Apostle.

1. You are conveniently forgetting that Paul was Saul, guilty of persecuting **the church** before he was converted. People were understandably very jumpy and hesitant to trust this man. Paul had to explain what had happened and reassure them/ other readers that he was a changed man.

Okay, but that would be simply defending his conversion to a follower of Christ. One doesn't need to be an Apostle to be a follower of Christ. Paul was constantly defending his Apostleship because many doubted he was an Apostle.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it..... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1:10-24&version=KJV
They accepted Paul as one of themselves.

Again accepting someone as a believer is differnet than accepting them as an Apostle. I accept you as a believer, but that is not proof that I accept you as an Apostle or that I agree with every point of your doctrine.

2. Who would call their enemy a beloved brother?

Someone who is a literal follower of Christ, as you say you are.

I am not going into Greek etc. Please keep your arguments in English.

Then you will not have a complete understanding, since the Bible was not originally written in English.

There you go again - with that proud tone - about how you are freed from dogma. There are plenty of people in Hell because they did just what you are boasting about.

I have a proud tone? You are the one condemning others to Hell when they don't agree with your doctrine, not me.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

If you love God and your neighbour as yourself and can prove that... you are of course welcome into the eternal Kingdom of God.

And that would exclude most people.

It would exclude more than most people - just think about it...

Luke 10

"25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

Do we love God with all, or each other as ourselves?

Paul wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” ... Every one of us has spurned God. To say we have not is to take pride in oneself (which is a sin). Paul wrote in Romans 2:10, “It is written: none is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.”

Our inability to live up to the things we would need to do in order inherit eternal life is precisely why we need a saviour.

 

[TokiEl]

It would exclude more than most people - just think about it...

Luke 10

"25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

Do we love God with all, or each other as ourselves?

Paul wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” ... Every one of us has spurned God. To say we have not is to take pride in oneself (which is a sin). Paul wrote in Romans 2:10, “It is written: none is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.”

Our inability to live up to the things we would need to do in order inherit eternal life is precisely why we need a saviour.

Sure we need a Savior to save us from our former sins... and guide us safely through this life. Now the Lord deals with each one individually and there might be slip ups or bumps in the road but when we with His help love God and our neighbour as ourselves... we are home free man.

 

[Todd]

Paul wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” ... Every one of us has spurned God. To say we have not is to take pride in oneself (which is a sin). Paul wrote in Romans 2:10, “It is written: none is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.”

There are many people in the Bible who were called righteous, some even before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Genesis 6:9, Matt 1:19, Luke 2:25, Matthew 23:35, 2Peter 2:7,8 and James 2:21.

I agree without Jesus I was not capable of being righteous. With Jesus he enables me to live according to God's guidance and instruction so that I may now live righteous. Do I sometimes fail? Of course. But God forgives and gives me grace so that I can continue to observe and do the things he commanded through the Torah and confirmed and clarified through his Messiah. If I do not follow Jesus' commands and observe the guidance and instruction of God, I cannot be righteous.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Matthew 19:23-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

With God All Things Are Possible
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[TokiEl]

Matthew 22 37 "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Galatians 5 14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


If you live like this... you are a citizen in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Matthew 22 37 "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Galatians 5 14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


If you live like this... you are a citizen in the Kingdom of God.

Subtle, but...

If you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God, you will live like this.

 

[TokiEl]

Subtle, but...

If you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God, you will live like this.

Yes that's right and even better than what i said.

 

[JoChris]

1. I have posted extensively on this forum the biblical basis for UR. Let me know if you can’t find it with the search function and I will post some links.
2. No not eternity. Again you can use the search function and find the threads were this has already been discussed.
3. Because names are very important in the Bible and understanding the meaning of the Messiah’s name is not possible if we only know him by his poorly translated English name.
I don’t “support” any “version” of Christianity. I am simply trying to follow the Messiah that Yahweh sent to show us the way back to him. If you insist on a label then I suppose I would say I am learning to become a follower of “the Way” as the believers in Jerusalem, lead by Peter, James and John, were called.

1. How about you post several links for others' sake too? Others (like me today) have limited time.

2. If you do not believe in eternal punishment how do you explain the *need* for faith in Christ?

3. Do you believe in ANY punishment e.g. annihilation for non-believers?

4. What is your position on the Hebrew Roots movement? https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html
https://answersingenesis.org/presuppositions/dangers-hebrew-roots-movement/

 

[JoChris]

If you love God and your neighbour as yourself and can prove that... you are of course welcome into the eternal Kingdom of God.

And that would exclude most people.

Yes. True faith in Jesus will cause a changed heart, resulting in increasing ability to love God and neighbour.

In some people that might take more time outwardly demonstrate though. All of us will remain imperfect too. https://activechristianity.org/difference-justification-salvation-sanctification

 

[JoChris]

When did I ever claim Paul didn't preach a resurreted Christ? I said that Paul denied what Jesus preached in the flesh. Paul never spoke are cared to learn anything about Christ's ministry in the flesh, only preaching the mystical Jesus of his vision. I never claimed Paul did not preach that Jesus was raised from the dead. It's Paul's rejection of what Jesus taught in the flesh that I have issue with.



That is one of the the poorest logical arguments I have read in a while. You know you can be a spouse with being a father? Just like you can be a beloved brother without being an Apostle.


Okay, but that would be simply defending his conversion to a follower of Christ. One doesn't need to be an Apostle to be a follower of Christ. Paul was constantly defending his Apostleship because many doubted he was an Apostle.


Again accepting someone as a believer is differnet than accepting them as an Apostle. I accept you as a believer, but that is not proof that I accept you as an Apostle or that I agree with every point of your doctrine.


Someone who is a literal follower of Christ, as you say you are.


Then you will not have a complete understanding, since the Bible was not originally written in English.


I have a proud tone? You are the one condemning others to Hell when they don't agree with your doctrine, not me.

1. Again, Peter the apostle accepted Paul as an apostle. https://bible.org/seriespage/10-peter-and-paul-2-peter-314-16
I believe the bible.
You do know that people use father and spouse in different conversations with different people?

E.g my sister used to call her husband her husband. After they divorced she refers to him as her children's father. People who know her know she is referring to her ex-husband but she does that as she has separated from him emotionally.

In fact, Peter is communicating his love to readers RE Paul (way more than a fellow "workmate" apostle) by calling him "brother"!!!

2. Please show where Paul denied Jesus in the flesh, using bible verses in context ONLY.

3. No use of different languages please. I do not know Greek and so I will not waste time arguing about Greek.
There are plenty of *theological* forums to nitpick meanings of individual words if you want to do that anyway.

4. You may not realise that you are coming across as proud, but you have frequently show the attitude that you have risen above mere doctrine unlike us mere unenlightened Christians. It is demonstrated in your OP.

"Religious platitude and dogma of organised religion" *translated* I am more advanced in religion than you bible-thumpers (how 1st grade in thinking compared to moi!)

 

[JoChris]

I have a specific question for @JoChris.

How's your summer going?

Hot and sticky, needing to water garden every day. It is like that for months in coastal central Queensland.

We don't get the extreme heatwaves like down south, because we are north of the massive inland deserts.
That is why poor South Australia's capital city Adelaide got the record of 46.6 celcius (115.88 F) yesterday.

 

[Todd]

1. How about you post several links for others' sake too? Others (like me today) have limited time.

2. If you do not believe in eternal punishment how do you explain the *need* for faith in Christ?

3. Do you believe in ANY punishment e.g. annihilation for non-believers?

4. What is your position on the Hebrew Roots movement? https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html
https://answersingenesis.org/presuppositions/dangers-hebrew-roots-movement/

1. I will sometime over the weekend. I’m on my phone right now.
2. Really? Is your faith and love for God that shallow that escaping hell is the only reason you are a Christian? Jesus died so that we could be saved from the power of sin in this lifetime.
3. Yes I do. The Lake of fire is where God will purify all unbelievers so that all will eventually be reconciled to him. Reconciliation does not mean everyone will be part of the Bride of Christ. That is one if the rewards of being born again I this age.
4. You ought to know me enough by now to know that I’m not about any particular denomination or movement. There are things I agree with from the Hebrew roots movement and things I don’t agree with. Of course I could probably say that about just about any Christian movement or denomination.

 

[elsbet]

^^^^^
NOTE: TODD never posts exegesis other than his own.

Your primary argument against my rejection of Paul, has been to quote 2 Peter 3, claiming Peter endorsed Paul as an Apsotle and his writings as the word of God. Yet Peter specifically states that Paul wrote out of his wisdom and does not say anything about inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

False. You're just lying, now.

​

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.​

​

And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you as also in all the letters, speaking in them concerning these things, among which some things are difficult to be understood, which the ignorant and unestablished distort to their own destruction, as also the other Scriptures.​

​

... but you did get a mention right there at the end.

Can you please clarify what you mean...

You're an energy vampire... and a pompous one at that.

If I do not follow Jesus' commands and observe the guidance and instruction of God, I cannot be righteous.

You cannot "follow Jesus' commands and observe the guidance and instruction of God" unless the Righteousness of Christ has first been imparted to you. And you, being dead in your sins ... COLOSSIANS 2:13

-

 

[Todd]

1. Again, Peter the apostle accepted Paul as an apostle. https://bible.org/seriespage/10-peter-and-paul-2-peter-314-16
I believe the bible.
You do know that people use father and spouse in different conversations with different people?

E.g my sister used to call her husband her husband. After they divorced she refers to him as her children's father. People who know her know she is referring to her ex-husband but she does that as she has separated from him emotionally.

In fact, Peter is communicating his love to readers RE Paul (way more than a fellow "workmate" apostle) by calling him "brother"!!!

2. Please show where Paul denied Jesus in the flesh, using bible verses in context ONLY.

3. No use of different languages please. I do not know Greek and so I will not waste time arguing about Greek.
There are plenty of *theological* forums to nitpick meanings of individual words if you want to do that anyway.

4. You may not realise that you are coming across as proud, but you have frequently show the attitude that you have risen above mere doctrine unlike us mere unenlightened Christians. It is demonstrated in your OP.

"Religious platitude and dogma of organised religion" *translated* I am more advanced in religion than you bible-thumpers (how 1st grade in thinking compared to moi!)

Please accept my sincere apology. It was not my intention to come across proud or arrogant. I simply wanted to leave the church doctrine out of the discussion and simply discuss what is actually present in the Bible. Religious platitude and church dogma is why the institutionalized Church is such a mess and in such disunity. I will not apologize for wanting Christians to rise above it, but it was not my intention to come across proud or arrogant. Please forgive me.

 

[JoChris]

1. I will sometime over the weekend. I’m on my phone right now.
2. Really? Is your faith and love for God that shallow that escaping hell is the only reason you are a Christian? Jesus died so that we could be saved from the power of sin in this lifetime.
3. Yes I do. The Lake of fire is where God will purify all unbelievers so that all will eventually be reconciled to him. Reconciliation does not mean everyone will be part of the Bride of Christ. That is one if the rewards of being born again I this age.
4. You ought to know me enough by now to know that I’m not about any particular denomination or movement. There are things I agree with from the Hebrew roots movement and things I don’t agree with. Of course I could probably say that about just about any Christian movement or denomination.

I am being honest.
How many people have been drawn to Jesus via fear of Hell *first*? After they become a Christian THEN as they grow in faith - they realise how much love was demonstrated by God the Father, by putting His begotten Son on the cross as a sacrifice for sin.
E.g. Is a drug-using, lying, tax-evading adulterer going to turn from his sins if he hears the reasurrance "don't worry mate, you'll get into Heaven - eventually - no matter what "?

Jesus spoke about Hell as a literal, eternal place and made multiple warnings about it. http://www.gospel.com/topics/hell/
Are you going to dismiss/ contradict Jesus Todd?

I couldn't remember your theological position on individual topics from mid last year.

 

[JoChris]

Please accept my sincere apology. It was not my intention to come across proud or arrogant. I simply wanted to leave the church doctrine out of the discussion and simply discuss what is actually present in the Bible. Religious platitude and church dogma is why the institutionalized Church is such a mess and in such disunity. I will not apologize for wanting Christians to rise above it, but it was not my intention to come across proud or arrogant. Please forgive me.

I did not think you realised how you come across online to us "bible-thumpers", so I did not take it personally.

You oversimplify the modern church's problems a great deal by suggesting church dogma is completely to blame. There is too little church doctrine in fact. E.g. Watering down teachings + oversimplifying everything to please everyone is a cause of youth leaving the church (insult to intelligence).

If the modern church went back to "bible only" position (and yes differences would remain due to interpretations e.g. baptists versus presbyterians RE baptism), it would shrink in size but it would get rid of many false Christians.

Return to genuine bible preaching/ teachings would make people a lot less likely to fall for flesh-pleasing messages, self-created doctrines and false teachers.