The Frutiless Thread

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Daciple...Jesus did not mention Grace at all in that discussion or with the disciples when explaining it to them. You are reading your pre-conceived doctrine into what Jesus said.

Now if Paul had quoted Jesus and then explained that Jesus was talking about Grace it would be slightly more plausible.

The fact that you needed a lengthy post with a lot of “I believe....” statements to reconcile Paul’s words with Jesus is the whole problem with Pauline Christianity. It requires “believing” esoteric interpretation of passages that have different meanings when taken at face value.

Thus the myriad of opinions when it comes to doctrine and the resulting numerous denominations and sects of Christianity that exist.

Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to remind the disciples what he spoke, not to interpret what he spoke.

Jesus also talked about having Childlike faith. I seriously doubt a child could comprehend and repeat your explanation stated above. A child is capable of understanding “ do what I say”.

I prefer to take Jesus words at face value rather than convoluted mystic revelation.

As far as the Pharisee goes Jesus didn’t say he wasn’t justified because he followed the law. Jesus clearly taught in other passages that the law was about more than outward action but what the condition of our heart is. Jesus taught a deeper understanding and application of the law, not a lesser one.

The rich young ruler followed the law outwardly but Jesus’ request for him to sell his possessions and give to the poor underlined that in his heart he was not following the love your neighbor aspects of the law.

To be fair, Todd, Jesus raised the standard of the Law to the level of perfection and humanly unattainable holiness (to the degree that the disciples cried out "who then can be saved?"). In other places the disciples were told things that they wouldn't understand the significance of or would seem obtuse - "this is a hard saying" etc.

The reason I believe for this is that part of Jesus's message were his words and the other part was his atonement. Without the lens if the latter, many on those words remain a mystery.

The meaning of Jesus life and death were unpacked in the epistles (particularly Paul). If you don't agree with Paul's conclusions, you might picture the question like a maths problem...

Paul took the OT imagery given to the Jews and connected that with the meaning of the Cross. If you feel those conclusions were unfounded, the place to do the error checking is to return to the OT to "re-work" the sum and see if you arrive at different answers?

 

[phipps]

No, it's not Gods ideology, its yours, and I dont misunderstand you, I understand you fully well, I just know you are wrong. /QUOTE]

You clearly don't understand me, what you're saying is not biblical and I disagree.

Backsliding is the same thing as Sinning, to Backsliding is simply moving away from God, the fact is unless you are moving forward and closer to God, then you are Backsliding. This idea that you can grieve away the Holy Spirit and lose your Salvation is not Scriptural.

Did you know there is an unforgivable sin in the Bible? “All manner of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven man, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" ( Matthew 12:31-32)

This deadly blasphemy is also called “grieving away” the Holy Spirit. Paul refers to “Grieve not the Holy Spirit, wherewith you are sealed" (Ephesians 4:30-32) meaning we can permanently grieve Him away.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 uses the word "quench." "Quench not the Spirit."

So you see it is Biblical. And there are examples of people who grieved away the Holy Spirit in the Bible. King Saul, Balaam etc. Its not made up.

Can I get YOUR words, not a copy paste of a Seventh Day Adventist page, about this Scripture:

If you don't like how post my messages then don't read them. I will continue to post like this because I like it. A mixture of my words and those that I copy paste to make my point.

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins

.
I will wait for your (again YOU and not some other persons ideas) interpretation of this before I give you mine, but it is very poignant to the discussion.

I have to read the whole Chapter in context. Reading from verse 3 it says, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

This means that we have great light and evidence of the great salvation brought to us through Christ. We have the promises of God too. We have all knowledge of what we need to do to be saved. And if we do those things that we have learnt then we shall not be barren or unfruitful. If we don't we will be blind and forget that our old sins are purged.

I believe my old sins have been purged. I pray for forgiveness of my sins that I commit daily and I believe Jesus forgives me each time.

"whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Romans 3:25).

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:10–12). This is not only to unsaved people. It s for all humanity both saved and unsaved. Just like an unsaved person can choose to be saved so can a saved person choose to be lost. This is biblical teaching.

This is untrue, and to say otherwise is to make God an insanely horrible monster. Also it doesnt line up with Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness of Christ.

What you are saying is that God will save you on Monday, but then for whatever reason if something happens and you get to this ethereal unknown point by Friday, your Salvation is Lost and He will send you to Hell. So your god will save you then sit back and watch and let you get to this unknown point and let you lose your Salvation and send you to Hell. That is a monster of a god you believe in.

That is like saying I will save my child who fell into a pool and was drowning and then after that I will sit and watch them head back to the edge and NOT intervene and when they fall in I will sit back and let them die this time. If I did something like that I would be a monster of a parent. God is a much better Father than I can ever hope to be, so I can not believe God would ever save someone and then watch them reach this point (which after asking you about a dozen times you can not show Scripture or give anything close to a definitive answer as to when or where this point is) and let them go to Hell.

Why wont God take them from this life before letting them get to that point? Why did God even save them in the first place if He knows they are only going to Sin their Salvation away? How do they know they have lost their Salvation?

As long as we allow God in our hearts and depend on Him and give Him the freedom to intervene in our lives, He will continue to make us perfect in every good work to do His will. If we stop allowing Him in our lives (because we can choose to do so because we have freedom of choice) He can't force Himself on us. He still tries every which way to get us to repent and come back to Him but ultimately its up to us if we choose to go back. King Saul was saved and he lost his salvation because he continuously disobeyed God and stopped listening to the Holy Spirit and sadly died lost. He used his free choice to do that. God uses the Holy Spirit to impress on us the need for a Saviour but if we keep fighting it, He will eventually accept our choices not because He wants to but because He can't force us. God is Love and Love cannot be forced. We have got to come to God willingly. We have to love Him willingly.

Yeah right, Jesus forgave ALL of our Sins, past present and future and paid the cost for ALL of our sins on the Cross. You are basically re crucifying Christ over and over with this ideology. The day you Repented, which means CHANGE YOUR MIND, concerning the Cross, Jesus, God, Sin and Hell and believed on Him for Salvation, then ALL your Sins were washed under the Blood, forever.

So even though I murder, my sin is covered and I have no need to ask for forgiveness of my sin just because I repented and accepted the gift of salvation in the past? This is not biblical doctrine. David was saved, then he got Bathsheba's husband killed and took her for his wife. Should he not have repented because he was saved? What about Solomon who went against God for years marrying so many women out his faith and committing idolatry?

If you understood the sanctuary system that most Christians don't, you would know it was fashioned on the heavenly sanctuary and Jesus is our high priest in heaven. You would understand that Jesus died for confessed sins. He did not die for unconfessed sins. So in the sanctuary system those who did not repent were kicked out of the camps. Once you understand what the high priest did and that Jesus does a similar things only there are no sacrificed animals because Jesus is the lamb that takes away our sins, you will never again say that Jesus died for our future sins. That is not biblical.

Here is the link to my forum on the heavenly sanctuary. Most Christians do not know about this subject even though its biblical and the book of Hebrews talks about it. None of us know most things in the Bible but you are wrong on this subject. Study and you will see.

So according to your ideology, if I happen to IDK cuss or some other Sin RIGHT before I die and didnt have the opportunity to "Repent" of it, then Im going to Hell?

Yes, if you did it wilfully and its God's ideology not mine. Have you heard of King Saul? Judas?

That is what you are saying, and I really dont think you seem to understand the heart of Christians. Let me ask you, when you Sin do you feel a grieving and a desire to Repent of it? Do you feel badly that you did it?

I feel bad every time I do something wrong. My heart aches. That is why when we pray we should ask God for forgiveness and He will forgive because He promised us He will.

If so, then dont you think that IS essentially having a Repenting Heart before God, or is there an official thing you must do? Do you have to say a specific Prayer? Hail Mary, Our Father?

We do have to pray and ask for forgiveness because Jesus told us to. He said we should ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.

And I'm not a Catholic. I don't pray using vain repetition. The Bible tells us not to do that. Matthew 6:7. When Jesus taught the disciples how to pray, He didn't say use those specific words. It was a model on how to pray. We are told to pray without ceasing and its one way to communicate with God. We should use our own words to communicate with God.

I will talk for myself, before I was saved, I didnt care or even believe in Sin. I could actively pursue Sin, bask in it, didnt feel anything wrong at all, because I didnt really believe that I was Sinning before God. I could do Drugs, have Sex, watch Porn, get Drunk, whatever and it never at all bothered me. However once I was under Conviction and God Saved me, then from that point on, I have always FELT something when I do Sin. There is always something there each time I Sin and my heart is always Repentant towards God.

We should be repentant. Repentance involves a genuine sorrow for sin that includes a turning away from the sin. We cannot repent unless we come to Christ. But, we still sin after we repent. We sin everyday. So we should ask God to forgive us everyday.

Do I always say some specific prayer no but in my heart I am always asking God for Forgiveness and asking Him to draw me closer to Him. So if that is what I do and feel, even when I find myself in the midst of Sin, even in the midst of "backsliding" then I cant imagine that you or anyone else who have actually been saved would be any different at all.

If you pray and ask God for forgiveness then you're doing as the Bible teaches. I've already explained backsliding.

Thats what makes someone Saved man, God CHANGES their heart, the BECOME A NEW CREATURE, they are DIFFERENT. Can you unchange your heart that was supernaturally changed by God Himself? I surely cant.

Again you can choose to be lost. You can choose to stop listening to the Holy spirit and there are examples that I've mentioned above from the Bible. Some of those people returned to God, others didn't. It was their choice. Being saved does not take away our free will. And remember we have the devil who is always tempting us and waiting for us to fall and trap us in our sins forever. Why would Satan tempt saved people if they are always saved no matter what they do? He wouldn't waste his time on them would he? He knows he can make them fall and he has succeeded many times in getting saved people to stop believing Christ.

Your false doctrine and explanation essentially is saying that God is sitting up there with a tally board and on the left is unrepentant Sins and the right is repentant Sins and He is tallying up all the unrepentant ones and if you happen to get caught off guard with any of the left side then He is going to send you to Hell. That is just garbage and false.

My doctrine isn't false I am sure of that. I pray that you at least get to read and understood the sanctuary system and therefore what Jesus is doing in the heavenly sanctuary so you could understand that all those who are going to hell with the devil and his angels will be paying for their unconfessed sins and rejection of Christ. Some of them will have been saved too. And I didn't say if God caught any of us off guard we'll be doomed. God is judge and He knows us and all our circumstances and will judge us accordingly. He has told us what we need to do to be saved. We play a part in our salvation. Its not all down to Jesus (its mainly Him) because we have free will. Its completely unbiblical to say that "once we are saved we are always saved." We have the devil in this world and he works every second to get people to lose their lives eternally and He especially wants the saved to be lost. Satan even tempted Jesus. What would have happened if Jesus gave in to Satan's temptations? That's why we are warned by Paul, “Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12). Meaning that those who "standeth" (the saved) can fall.

In the Scenario I have explained, there is a board with all your Sins on it, every single one, from Birth to Death, and if you die with them on there you go to Hell, but the second you Repent aka CHANGE YOUR MIND, and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, ALL OF THEM ARE WIPED AWAY FOREVER.

Yes when we repent after conversion Christ forgives us and wipes away our past sins. "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Romans 3:25).

But what about the sins during our sanctification? Have you never given in to temptation since you were saved? As we grow in Christ we still sin and need those sins to be forgiven. Those sins are not automatically forgiven. Not according to the Bible

Your Salvation is 100% based on YOU, my Salvation is 100% based on Christ period...

No, my salvation is based on mainly Christ and me too. I have free will therefore I can choose to walk away and follow my own path. Here are some verses warning us all about apostasy. I will post links and verses of the saved who are warned about falling.

Matthew 10:33, Matthew 13:20-21, Acts 20:28-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 John 1:7, Revelation 2:20-22, Revelation 3:5.

1 Samuel 15:11: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night."

Galatians 1:6: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel..."

1 Timothy 4:1: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

2 Peter 3:17: "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

1 John 2:24: "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

James 1:12: "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Christ never takes away our freedom of choice, and that includes the option of changing our minds about the gift of salvation. In fact, the Bible contains countless admonitions against apostasy which would never have been needed if eternal security was ever a Biblical doctrine.

God bless.

 

[phipps]

No Sin will enter Heaven

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, John said, "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8. Paul repeatedly wrote about the exclusion of sinners from heaven. Sin is the only thing that defiles in the sight of God, and no one who willfully practices sin will ever enter into His kingdom. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Nowhere in the Bible is entrance into God's kingdom tied to a momentary - or even temporary - faith experience of the past. Salvation is a dynamic, growing relationship with the only One who has eternal life to bestow. It requires continuing contact in order to receive it. The very life of God can be shared with men but NEVER APART FROM A LIVING UNION WITH CHRIST! "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

Just as the constant creative energy of God is necessary to sustain the universe and to hold atoms together, so His divine power is constantly needed to maintain spiritual life in the soul. When a person willfully chooses to separate from God, the contact is broken, and the spiritual life ceases to flow. God will not violate the will of anyone in making that choice either. For proof that Christians can lose their connection with Jesus and be lost, read John 15:1-6. There Christ explains one of the great mysteries of eternal life. "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Verses 5-6.

Security is Eternal Only for Those Whose Faith is Eternally Fixed on Jesus

Those who read the record of the Gospels carefully will find repeated authority from Jesus to renounce the doctrine of eternal security. In Luke 12:42-46 Christ described in another parable how a faithful servant could turn into an unfaithful one. After asking, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household . . . ?" Jesus answers His own question: "That servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . . . he will make him ruler over all that he hath." Then Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward. "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Verses 45, 46.

Here is a perfect example by the Master Teacher as to how a faithful and wise servant can be punished with the unbelievers. Jesus was talking about a man whom He had seen faithful enough to trust with heavy responsibilities. Undoubtedly, this servant represents those who carefully served the Lord as true believers. But what happened? That very faithful servant departed from the path of faithfulness and reaped eternal ruin and death. Does this not also remind us of the words of Hebrews 10:38, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." The servant in the parable, who was a believer, is now punished with the unbelievers. The faithful can draw back to perdition.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost-

 

[TokiEl]

When you are saved there is a definite change inwardly. The dead spirit is quickened and alive, the Holy Spirit takes residence and testifies to our spirit that we ARE saved.

The flesh is not. Our flesh is not redeemed until Christ returns.

There is a daily war between the flesh and the spirit: the spirit is willing, the spirit WANTS us to do the right thing.

Even the most carnal, backslidden Christian—-who lives completely in the world, never goes to church, never reads the Bible, never prays, never goes soulwinning—-yet has trusted completely on Christ alone for salvation —-that person is still saved.

That is absolutely not true.

This is the message of modern churchinsanity where ravenous wolves are teaching in the seminares and preaching from the pulpits.

It is devoid of the Holy spirit and delusional.

Most Christians might agree with you... but Jesus and i don't so that settles it.

 

[phipps]

What blasphemy!! Man what are you saying here!! That is horrible, please no one believe this lie, Trusting and Believing in Christ is the ONLY way to be saved, on Him and Him alone.

You are preaching a Works Based Salvation, essentially following the Law in some fashion for Justification which means you are fallen from Grace.

No one believe this person they are lying about Jesus Christ...

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I know I am not preaching blasphemy but the word of God.

Like I said it is important to trust and believe but we have to do God's will too. What is faith? Faith is believing, trusting, having confidence in the word of God. Its a precious gift from God because we can't have faith without Him. Faith is important for without it we cannot please God. Hebrews 11:6. Some people think you need a whole lot of faith, but Luke 17:5-6 tells us that faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains! It apparently doesn’t take a lot to achieve a lot. Faith is not measured by how much we have. A little faith, if it is genuine, does the impossible.

What you are saying is having faith is enough on its own. The Bible preaches faith plus works. When we have faith, the natural effect will be His good works in our daily lives. “By works was faith made perfect” James 2:22. Please go back and read your Bible to understand the word of God. Now let scripture speak for itself.

Faith Without Works Is Dead
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:14-26.

Hebrews 11:4, "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).

Revelation 14:12, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Now is the word of God wrong? I have repeatedly said that to understand the Bible on a certain topic, we've got to read all over the Bible what it says on said topic. The Bible says a lot about faith as you've posted but it adds more to the subject in other parts. That's how we have to study the Bible. We are lucky that we can get concordances that put all the chapters and verses together on any subject in the Bible.

This is also along the same vein with Grace and law. Paul warns Christians to be careful about using the promised gift of grace as an excuse to sin (Rom. 6:12, Rom. 6:15). Paul is basically telling Christians: keep the law, obey the commandments! Grace and law go hand in hand. When we have Grace we naturally obey God's law as I've posted in this very forum.

 

[DavidSon]

@Daciple...Jesus did not mention Grace at all in that discussion or with the disciples when explaining it to them. You are reading your pre-conceived doctrine into what Jesus said.

Now if Paul had quoted Jesus and then explained that Jesus was talking about Grace it would be slightly more plausible.

The fact that you needed a lengthy post with a lot of “I believe....” statements to reconcile Paul’s words with Jesus is the whole problem with Pauline Christianity. It requires “believing” esoteric interpretation of passages that have different meanings when taken at face value.

Thus the myriad of opinions when it comes to doctrine and the resulting numerous denominations and sects of Christianity that exist.

Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to remind the disciples what he spoke, not to interpret what he spoke.

Jesus also talked about having Childlike faith. I seriously doubt a child could comprehend and repeat your explanation stated above. A child is capable of understanding “ do what I say”.

I prefer to take Jesus words at face value rather than convoluted mystic revelation.

As far as the Pharisee goes Jesus didn’t say he wasn’t justified because he followed the law. Jesus clearly taught in other passages that the law was about more than outward action but what the condition of our heart is. Jesus taught a deeper understanding and application of the law, not a lesser one.

The rich young ruler followed the law outwardly but Jesus’ request for him to sell his possessions and give to the poor underlined that in his heart he was not following the love your neighbor aspects of the law.

Yes Brother!

Right now I'm thinking of the "corniest" Christian phrase I remember from my childhood, but it's true- Jesus Saves!

If you think about the story, the revelation of God unto the Israelites set them and mankind free from polytheism. Worshiping stars, elaborate pantheons of deities people were slaves to- with their orgies, human sacrifice...God knows what else.

Then the Messiah arises and lights a fire in people's hearts. The truth of God in man is felt through Him- the wisdom and joy that we all are made of. One might say His example also set mankind free. Free from making God into an idol, that God is far off in heaven somewhere, or of blindly following religion. Or worst of all-to be the arrogant Pharisee lost in the ego of his religion.

With respect to the followers who construct elaborate theories and philosophies of who HE is, I say each unto their own. For the scientist maybe they see the Ultimate at the laboratory. Some of us are wired like an Ignatius or Origen, we desire intellectual concepts to make sense of it all.

"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." -MARK 12:27

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to my Father." - JOHN 14:12

"

 

[Todd]

Isn't Jesus saying that faith in Him (no strings attached, no fine print) is all we need for eternal life GRACE?

Where does Jesus say that?

http://graceambassadors.com/midacts/the-gospel-of-the-kingdom-vs-the-gospel-of-the-grace-of-god

Nearly no converts to Christianity are from a jewish background. Why do you keep on sounding like you are trying to "return there"?

Thank you! You are the first Pauline Christian here to post or link something admitting Paul taught a different Gospel than Jesus, Peter, James and John.

I'm not trying to return to a jewish backgorund. I'm trying to follow "The Way" that Jesus and his disciples followed and preached to both Jews and Gentiles. Yes, Jesus came to give the gospel to the Jews. Then he told them to make disciples of all nations. There was no disclaimer in the Great Commission that said "wait until I send Paul though, because the gospel I taught you is in not the gospel I want you to spread to the nations." Instead he said "wait until I send the Holy Spirit, who will remind you of everything I spoke"

 

[TokiEl]

So you do not have any personal sin patterns at all? I am extremely skeptical about that.

Do you believe you are a sinner * present tense*?

The Ten Commandments written by God himself on two stone tablets... and kept in the Ark of the Covenant on which mercy seat the high priest sprinkled animal blood upon once a year and on which the Blood of Jesus Christ sprinkled once sufficient for all time... are the Commandments of God.

Those are not suggestions.

Transgress one of them and one has committed a crime worthy of death.

Perjury adultery murder theft etc etc are all capital crimes worthy of capital punishment according to God.

Do you take the chance to break one of them after you've come to Christ who is God ?

 

[Todd]

To be fair, Todd, Jesus raised the standard of the Law to the level of perfection and humanly unattainable holiness (to the degree that the disciples cried out "who then can be saved?"). In other places the disciples were told things that they wouldn't understand the significance of or would seem obtuse - "this is a hard saying" etc.

The reason I believe for this is that part of Jesus's message were his words and the other part was his atonement. Without the lens if the latter, many on those words remain a mystery.

The meaning of Jesus life and death were unpacked in the epistles (particularly Paul). If you don't agree with Paul's conclusions, you might picture the question like a maths problem...

Paul took the OT imagery given to the Jews and connected that with the meaning of the Cross. If you feel those conclusions were unfounded, the place to do the error checking is to return to the OT to "re-work" the sum and see if you arrive at different answers?

I respectfully disagree. Jesus raised the standard so that we would judge our own hearts (not others) rather than just our outward actions. Trying to treat the symptom rather than the root cause, is how we fail at keeping God's commandments. When we understand the heart issue (the root) behind the commandments it makes the prophecy of God turning our heart from stone to flesh a reality. It's not a miraculous one time event. It's a process...the same process that James describes "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing."

Am I there yet? By no means. But I am closer than I ever was when I believed "justification by faith alone".

God said throught the prophet Ezekiel that he would give a us a new heart so that we could obey his commandments, not ignore them. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26-27

Jesus died and was resurrected so that we, by having faith in his work, could be set free from the power of sin. When Peter was asked during his first sermon by the Jews what they should do, Peter didn't tell them they were saved from the threat of eternal punishment in hell, he told them to be saved from the current evil generation we live in. He was saying be freed from the power of sin. It doesn't happen instantly. It happens when we allow God's law to be written on our heart....in other words when we allow God's law to judge the condition of our heart and not just simply the outward actions. This leads to repentance, which leads to forgiveness and our hearts of stone being turned to hearts of flesh, so that we can walk in God's statues and commandments. That is the real good news!

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is our hope and assurance that we can be freed from the power of sin (death) and we can have life in the here and now, and the ages to come!

 

[Claire Rousseau]

We are going round in circles here. Your doctrine is not biblical. If someone is a practising adulterer or thief they won't go to heaven if they don't repent and come back to Christ. Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough to be saved. Belief is faith and the Bible is clear faith with out works is dead (James 2:20). Doing His will too is very important. Jesus is our example. He not only trusted in His Father, He did His will. The Bible tells us Jesus is the only one who never sinned in this world.

Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

Words and profession are not enough. The true evidence is obedience. To know Christ is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him.

1 John 2:4. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

That's what the Bible says, that what I believe.

We are definitely going in circles, so let’s look at the passages you bring up:

James 2 (KJB):
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Notice who James is speaking to in this passage: BRETHREN (v. 14). .....these are men who are ALREADY SAVED. That is important to remember as you study this passage.

He says (v.16) what does it profit THEM (the naked, hungry brothers& sisters) if you send them away without providing for their PHYSICAL needs (not spiritual, he calls them brothers & sisters/brethren, too). He’s not saying it will profit the ones he is talking to, to do those works, or that it has to do with salvation.

He is saying it shows our faith to brethren, not God.

We show our faith to OTHERS by doing good works. But God knows our heart, which is why works cannot save. You either trust in Christ or don’t, but God knows either way.

Men cannot see our heart.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I respectfully disagree. Jesus raised the standard so that we would judge our own hearts (not others) rather than just our outward actions. Trying to treat the symptom rather than the root cause, is how we fail at keeping God's commandments. When we understand the heart issue (the root) behind the commandments it makes the prophecy of God turning our heart from stone to flesh a reality. It's not a miraculous one time event. It's a process...the same process that James describes "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing."

Am I there yet? By no means. But I am closer than I ever was when I believed "justification by faith alone".

God said throught the prophet Ezekiel that he would give a us a new heart so that we could obey his commandments, not ignore them. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26-27

Jesus died and was resurrected so that we, by having faith in his work, could be set free from the power of sin. When Peter was asked during his first sermon by the Jews what they should do, Peter didn't tell them they were saved from the threat of eternal punishment in hell, he told them to be saved from the current evil generation we live in. He was saying be freed from the power of sin. It doesn't happen instantly. It happens when we allow God's law to be written on our heart....in other words when we allow God's law to judge the condition of our heart and not just simply the outward actions. This leads to repentance, which leads to forgiveness and our hearts of stone being turned to hearts of flesh, so that we can walk in God's statues and commandments. That is the real good news!

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is our hope and assurance that we can be freed from the power of sin (death) and we can have life in the here and now, and the ages to come!

Chuck Missler often noted the fractal nature of scripture - that no doctrine is dependent entirely on one verse or author. If you have managed to understand the gospel without reference to Paul, that's fine (I'm not your judge). There are some Christians who reject creation who still have a vibrant faith. Others imagine God changed in the NT and still look to Jesus. If you can read the early verses of the creed in 1 Corinthians 15 with faith, you are a brother despite our different view of Paul. If you reject them and only accept them with certain conditions, now is the best time to review your position...

 

[Todd]

Chuck Missler often noted the fractal nature of scripture - that no doctrine is dependent entirely on one verse or author. If you have managed to understand the gospel without reference to Paul, that's fine (I'm not your judge). There are some Christians who reject creation who still have a vibrant faith. Others imagine God changed in the NT and still look to Jesus. If you can read the early verses of the creed in 1 Corinthians 15 with faith, you are a brother despite our different view of Paul. If you reject them and only accept them with certain conditions, now is the best time to review your position...

Verses 1-6? Absolutley!

 

[TokiEl]

We are definitely going in circles, so let’s look at the passages you bring up:

James 2 (KJB):
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Notice who James is speaking to in this passage: BRETHREN (v. 14). .....these are men who are ALREADY SAVED. That is important to remember as you study this passage.

He says (v.16) what does it profit THEM (the naked, hungry brothers& sisters) if you send them away without providing for their PHYSICAL needs (not spiritual, he calls them brothers & sisters/brethren, too). He’s not saying it will profit the ones he is talking to, to do those works, or that it has to do with salvation.

He is saying it shows our faith to brethren, not God.

We show our faith to OTHERS by doing good works. But God knows our heart, which is why works cannot save. You either trust in Christ or don’t, but God knows either way.

Men cannot see our heart.

How you twist and turn the inspired words of God to fit your erroneous doctrine of just believe in Jesus.

If belief was all it took then the Kingdom of God would be crowded.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Verses 1-6? Absolutley!

The Resurrection of Christ

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

So - you're OK with the above
----------
And reject these verses as you think Paul is writing himself into the story?...

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

 

[Todd]

The Resurrection of Christ

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

So - you're OK with the above
----------
And reject these verses as you think Paul is writing himself into the story?...

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

I don't care to argue about Paul anymore. I accept the gospel that Jesus, Peter and James preached. Of course anything Peter, James or John writes that contradicts what Jesus taught is suspect also.

 

[TokiEl]

I don't care to argue about Paul anymore. I accept the gospel that Jesus, Peter and James preached. Of course anything Peter, James or John writes that contradicts what Jesus taught is suspect also.

And anything Jesus is supposed to have said which contradicts what i say is suspect as well. L0L

That was a joke.

 

[phipps]

We are definitely going in circles, so let’s look at the passages you bring up:

James 2 (KJB):
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Notice who James is speaking to in this passage: BRETHREN (v. 14). .....these are men who are ALREADY SAVED. That is important to remember as you study this passage.

He says (v.16) what does it profit THEM (the naked, hungry brothers& sisters) if you send them away without providing for their PHYSICAL needs (not spiritual, he calls them brothers & sisters/brethren, too). He’s not saying it will profit the ones he is talking to, to do those works, or that it has to do with salvation.

He is saying it shows our faith to brethren, not God.

We show our faith to OTHERS by doing good works. But God knows our heart, which is why works cannot save. You either trust in Christ or don’t, but God knows either way.

Men cannot see our heart.

So if what James was saying to the "brethren" does not profit them, why would he say those things to them? Why would his message be in the Bible? James' message is for both saved and unsaved people. One of the reasons we study the Bible is to get to understand God, to find out His will for us and its also a way of communicating with God. By studying God's word our faith in Him grows and it all leads to salvation does it not? Do you think because you're saved you do not need to know about God's will in your life any more? What if you're wrong? Studying the Bible corrects and shows us how to avoid error. Don't you need to understand what faith is and its fruits? What about newly saved people who have just become Christians? All humanity needs to hear not only James' message but the message of the whole Bible so we can't be deceived. The devil is looking for saved people to fall and he will do it with cunning by distorting the message of God.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:15-20. Who is being warned to beware? And also good fruit is produced by a good tree and bad fruit by a bad tree.

We have to have faith first, then our faith leads us to obey God's will and that will show through our works. Now there are people who have faith, they believe in God but do not produce fruit from it. And there are people who have works with no faith. Both are wrong. Faith and works go hand in hand. That is what pleases God. Is this really hard to understand?

Revelation 14:12, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." This verse which I've repeated so many times shows that those who keep God's commandments and have faith are the ones who will be saved. Faith plus works as James puts it.

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14).

Stop fighting the simple message of the Bible.

This is really the last thing I'll say to you on this subject. God bless.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

My understanding is that Jesus answered the question what one should do if they want age-enduring life, is to keep the commandments and show love and charity to others. Nothing more, nothing less. What's your understanding?

Here is my understanding:

John 3 (KJB):
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

So if what James was saying to the "brethren" does not profit them, why would he say those things to them? Why would his message be in the Bible? James' message is for both saved and unsaved people. One of the reasons we study the Bible is to get to understand God, to find out His will for us and its also a way of communicating with God. By studying God's word our faith in Him grows and it all leads to salvation does it not? Do you think because you're saved you do not need to know about God's will in your life any more? What if you're wrong? Studying the Bible corrects and shows us how to avoid error. Don't you need to understand what faith is and its fruits? What about newly saved people who have just become Christians? All humanity needs to hear not only James' message but the message of the whole Bible so we can't be deceived. The devil is looking for saved people to fall and he will do it with cunning by distorting the message of God.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:15-20. Who is being warned to beware? And also good fruit is produced by a good tree and bad fruit by a bad tree.

We have to have faith first, then our faith leads us to obey God's will and that will show through our works. Now there are people who have faith, they believe in God but do not produce fruit from it. And there are people who have works with no faith. Both are wrong. Faith and works go hand in hand. That is what pleases God. Is this really hard to understand?

Revelation 14:12, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." This verse which I've repeated so many times shows that those who keep God's commandments and have faith are the ones who will be saved. Faith plus works as James puts it.

Stop fighting the simple message of the Bible.

Now this is the last thing I'll say to you on this subject. God bless.

So you believe in faith PLUS works?

That’s still a false Gospel.

You cannot add YOUR works to your alleged “faith” in hopes of gaining salvation. That is not how God offers it.

If I offer you a free gift, (let’s say a car, and you accept it) but you feel I’m being too generous so you give me $100 for it, is that still a free gift?

Of course not. Now you’ve purchased it. If you even give me a penny for the car, it is STILL not a free gift, but a purchase.

If I offer you the car and say, “You can have this free gift....but now you must mow my lawn.” ........is that a free gift? No, you have earned it.

If I give you the car for free, but then 6 months later, I come to your house and ask for the car back, was it a free gift? No, it was borrowed.


Salvation, however, IS TRULY a FREE GIFT...at least for US.

The gift was given to us FREELY by the giver (God the Father) and was purchased & paid for by Jesus Christ.

WE simply trust & believe that He offers us this gift (eternal salvation) and ask Him to give it to us and He does.

He does not sell it, it cannot be earned, and it is NOT borrowed.

It is COMPLETELY FREE, ours to keep forever.

Do you understand?

Romans 5:18 (KJB):
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

 

[Todd]

So you believe in faith PLUS works?

Verse 19, 20 and 21 that you quoted in your previous post reference deeds both postive and good. How you can say faith plus works is a false gospel is beyone me....