The Frutiless Thread

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#1
EDIT:This thread was originally started to discuss the specifics of why Paul can be regarded as preaching a different gospel than Jesus and why many don't consider him a genuine Apostle of Jesus of Nazareth. I had a series of questions I wanted to pose to @JoChris but I never even got past question number ine. At some point well after it went off track @Damien50 asked me if this thread was bearing any fruit. It clearly is not. I have since bowed out, and no longer care to debate Paul. I repented for engaging in useless debate and I will simply keep my comments and additions to any discussions focused on what Jesus alone said.
END of EDIT (2/5/19)

As you requested @JoChris, I am starting a thread so you can address point by point, why my beliefs are not biblically correct. I ask that you keep this to pure discussion about what the Bible says and not about the religious platitude and dogma of organized religion. I am well versed in all that, but no longer embrace it.

I will start with very simple points and if you are able to correctly show the fault in my reasoning, I will gladly move on to the next point. Remember this is not in excercise in regurgitating Church dogma. I am already familiar with most of those answers. I am looking for sound reason, exegesis and word study to interpret the Bible.

But before we begin I request that you answer one question. Does the Word of God come by the wisdom of man?
 





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#2
Todd, I will answer as I believe I should. If you object to Christians "spouting church dogma" don't expect me to contribute very long. [What is your definition of church dogma?]

Does the Word of God come by the wisdom of man?
According to the bible, no.
2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Genuine Christians believe that the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) is the third person of the trinity, i.e. God.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Holy-Ghost/
https://www.gotquestions.org/is-the-Holy-Spirit-God.html

P.S. I ask that other Christians contribute as they see fit to in this conversation as well.

P.P.S. please keep other anti-Pauline contributors' material from your argument. If your position is correct, you will be able to use the bible in context.
 





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#3
@JoChris I am glad you agree that the word of God does not come by the wisdom of man.

Your primary argument against my rejection of Paul, has been to quote 2 Peter 3, claiming Peter endorsed Paul as an Apsotle and his writings as the word of God. Yet Peter specifically states that Paul wrote out of his wisdom and does not say anything about inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So 2 Peter 3 cannot be used as evidence that Peter endorsed Paul's writings as the word of God.

Also Peter never addresses Paul as an Apostle. Peter only calls Paul a beloved brother. I have many "beloved brothers" that I disagree with on doctrine and theology. Calling someone a beloved brother is anything but an endorsement of Paul as an Apostle. Paul felt the need to defend his claimed Apostleship in many of his writings. If indeed Peter was endorsing Paul writings as the Word of God would he have not backed up Paul as an Apostle, if he really believed he was? Peter was doing harm, not helping, Paul's case as an Apostle.

I could go on how the greek word dysnoētos actually means non-sensical. Looking at the eytemology, the prefix dys actually means the following:
δυς, an inseparable prefix conveying the idea of difficulty, opposition, injuriousness or the like, and corresponding to our mis-, un- (Curtius, § 278); opposed to εὖ.

The common english translation as difficult to understand is the best case scenario and more likely it should be injurious or opposing understanding. Paul was more likely throwing veiled mockery at the writings of Paul, rather than endorsing it as the Word of God.

There is in no way, that someone freed from the dogma of Church doctrine, would ever consider 2 Peter 3 an endorsement of Paul as an Apostle or his writings as the Word of God.
 





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#4
Todd, I will answer as I believe I should. If you object to Christians "spouting church dogma" don't expect me to contribute very long. [What is your definition of church dogma?]
If you are going to "spout" church dogma, at least try to explain how it is supported by actual scriptural references and not just becasue that's what the human authorities in the church say.

Dogma is an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion or denomination. When I refer to someone regurgitating dogma, I simply mean one someone repeats the stated postion of instituntionalized religion without providing scriptural support for it.
 





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#5
I don't wish to derail this discussion but something occured to me @Todd -

Given your feelings about the Apostle Paul, imagine you met an old friend at a station. After some greetings he suddenly wells up with tears and tells you he has two weeks left to live and his train is coming in five minutes. He looks you in the face with anguish and asks you if or why he should make a "decision" for Jesus and if he should, what he must do to be saved?

Do you have an answer you can give him?
 





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#6
I don't wish to derail this discussion but something occured to me @Todd -

Given your feelings about the Apostle Paul, imagine you met an old friend at a station. After some greetings he suddenly wells up with tears and tells you he has two weeks left to live and his train is coming in five minutes. He looks you in the face with anguish and asks you if or why he should make a "decision" for Jesus and if he should, what he must do to be saved?

Do you have an answer you can give him?
I would explain that we have all sinned in the sight of God, but that God sent his son to show us the way back to him. I would tell him that we can be freed from the power of sin, because Jesus who was sinless, was crucified and overcame the power of sin for us. Jesus being resurrected form the dead is the assurance that though we will die becuase of our sins, death will not win, as we will all be resurrected in the ages to come.

I would tell him to Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38) I would explain what baptism is and tell him that physical water baptism is a symbol of our faith and obedience to Christ, but that the baptism of fire (the Holy Ghost) is the real thing. Fire is God's method of purification. By living the words and commandments that Christ spoke, the fire of the Holy Ghost will purify us.

I would tell him that Jesus summed up the commands of God with "Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself". I would tell them, If there is anyone that you have bitteness or unforgiveness in your heart for, try to contact them and forgive them. Likewise if you have offended another try to contact them and apologize and ask for forgivness. If you can't contact these people directly then repent, the tell God you are sorry, ask him for forgiveness for those that you hurt and tell him you forgive those that have hurt you. If you forgive others God will forgive you (Matthew 6:14-15) If you humble yourself God will give you grace and exalt you. (1 Peter 5:5-6 and James 4:6-7)

Of course this all hypothetical, but if this person was serious and genuine, I would give them my cell phone number and ask them to call me so I could help them and lead them towards God the last two weeks of their life. Of course I would also encourage them to believe God to intervene in whatever the situation is that they think they only have two weeks to live.
 





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#7
@Red Sky at Morning if I were able to call, text or email this hypothetical person after they left, I would give them the following reading plan. 1. Sermon on the mount. 2. Peters first sermon in Acts 3. the book of James.
If he got through that then I would tell him to read the gospel of Matthew.

The rest is on God! (of course I would have trusted that the whole thing was on God from the beginning)

This being hypothetical, I'm not entirely sure everything I have typed in these two posts is what I would actually say, because I would trust God to lead me to say what would be the most impactful thing for this individual. God doesn't minister to hypothetical people. He knows what will make each man's heart of stone turn contrite and I would trust God to lead me to whatever that is.

If nothing came to me immediately, something along the lines of what I have typed would be my default until God directed the conversation a certain way, whethter it be by the questions the other person asks, or God revealing something specific to my spirit.
 





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#8
@JoChris I am glad you agree that the word of God does not come by the wisdom of man.

Your primary argument against my rejection of Paul, has been to quote 2 Peter 3, claiming Peter endorsed Paul as an Apsotle and his writings as the word of God. Yet Peter specifically states that Paul wrote out of his wisdom and does not say anything about inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So 2 Peter 3 cannot be used as evidence that Peter endorsed Paul's writings as the word of God.

Also Peter never addresses Paul as an Apostle. Peter only calls Paul a beloved brother. I have many "beloved brothers" that I disagree with on doctrine and theology. Calling someone a beloved brother is anything but an endorsement of Paul as an Apostle.
That is a ridiculous argument. That is on the same level your as claiming Paul didn't preach the resurrected Christ. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-muslum-christian.5045/page-13#post-182475

Reminding you:
Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said......
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people....

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+13:16-41&version=KJV

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.....
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+15&version=KJV

It is possible to say the same thing using different words. e.g. someone could say that my husband is my spouse or my sons' father. He is the same person, different context.
I hope other people are able to see synonyms despite you refusing to do that.
Paul felt the need to defend his claimed Apostleship in many of his writings. If indeed Peter was endorsing Paul writings as the Word of God would he have not backed up Paul as an Apostle, if he really believed he was? Peter was doing harm, not helping, Paul's case as an Apostle.
1. You are conveniently forgetting that Paul was Saul, guilty of persecuting **the church** before he was converted. People were understandably very jumpy and hesitant to trust this man. Paul had to explain what had happened and reassure them/ other readers that he was a changed man.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it..... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1:10-24&version=KJV
They accepted Paul as one of themselves.

2. Who would call their enemy a beloved brother? Who would call a false prophet/ teacher a beloved brother?
Who would say OUR beloved brother if he was not their OWN beloved brother?
What's next - are you going to call Peter a liar, misleading other Christians?

I am not going into Greek etc. Please keep your arguments in English.
There is in no way, that someone freed from the dogma of Church doctrine, would ever consider 2 Peter 3 an endorsement of Paul as an Apostle or his writings as the Word of God.
There you go again - with that proud tone - about how you are freed from dogma. There are plenty of people in Hell because they did just what you are boasting about.
 





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#9
That is a ridiculous argument. That is on the same level your as claiming Paul didn't preach the resurrected Christ. https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-muslum-christian.5045/page-13#post-182475

Reminding you:
Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said......
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people....

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+13:16-41&version=KJV

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.....
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+15&version=KJV

It is possible to say the same thing using different words. e.g. someone could say that my husband is my spouse or my sons' father. He is the same person, different context.
I hope other people are able to see synonyms despite you refusing to do that.

1. You are conveniently forgetting that Paul was Saul, guilty of persecuting **the church** before he was converted. People were understandably very jumpy and hesitant to trust this man. Paul had to explain what had happened and reassure them/ other readers that he was a changed man.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it..... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1:10-24&version=KJV
They accepted Paul as one of themselves.

2. Who would call their enemy a beloved brother? Who would call a false prophet/ teacher a beloved brother?
Who would say OUR beloved brother if he was not their OWN beloved brother?
What's next - are you going to call Peter a liar, misleading other Christians?

I am not going into Greek etc. Please keep your arguments in English.

There you go again - with that proud tone - about how you are freed from dogma. There are plenty of people in Hell because they did just what you are boasting about.
 





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#10
If you are going to "spout" church dogma, at least try to explain how it is supported by actual scriptural references and not just becasue that's what the human authorities in the church say.

Dogma is an official system of principles or doctrines of a religion or denomination. When I refer to someone regurgitating dogma, I simply mean one someone repeats the stated postion of instituntionalized religion without providing scriptural support for it.
Dogma can be very useful to clarify a person/ church's position on their beliefs. It saves a huge amount of time, being able to explain in one sentence what might take many paragraphs.

I expect every biblical church would have no problem agreeing with the Nicene Creed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

It prevents the average Joe from having to learn difficult doctrine.
 





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#11
@JoChris do you consider me your enemy?

Peter was a literal follower of Jesus who said "love your enemy"

I do not find it hard to believe Peter would call Paul a beloved brother even if he did not believe he was an apostle or accept all his teaching.
 





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#12
I don't wish to derail this discussion but something occured to me @Todd -

Given your feelings about the Apostle Paul, imagine you met an old friend at a station. After some greetings he suddenly wells up with tears and tells you he has two weeks left to live and his train is coming in five minutes. He looks you in the face with anguish and asks you if or why he should make a "decision" for Jesus and if he should, what he must do to be saved?

Do you have an answer you can give him?
Unfortunately I can't imagine Todd giving the Gospel because I think he is a universalist (?). I hope I am wrong about that.
 





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#13
@JoChris do you consider me your enemy?

Peter was a literal follower of Jesus who said "love your enemy"

I do not find it hard to believe Peter would call Paul a beloved brother even if he did not believe he was an apostle or accept all his teaching.
From a theological viewpoint, yes right now you are an enemy of Christianity. People who believe what you type will not be saved.
Therefore I would not call you a brother in Christ.

From a personal viewpoint, no. I don't see anyone active on this forum right now as my enemy. Some of them are extremely wrong though. :)
 





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#14
Dogma can be very useful to clarify a person/ church's position on their beliefs. It saves a huge amount of time, being able to explain in one sentence what might take many paragraphs.
Agreed it is useful for clarify a person's position or beliefs but it is useless in a debate to defend why you hold those beliefs.

I expect every biblical church would have no problem agreeing with the Nicene Creed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
Not surprising....
 





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#15
Unfortunately I can't imagine Todd giving the Gospel because I think he is a universalist (?). I hope I am wrong about that.
Yes you are wrong about that. I believe in Universal Reconciliation as taught in the Bible. (UR can even be found in the writings of Paul) UR is quite different than being a Universalist. A Univerisalist believes there are many paths or that all religions lead to God. UR is based completely on the work of Jesus the Messiah. Yeshua is the only way to the Father.
 





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#17
Yes you are wrong about that. I believe in Universal Reconciliation as taught in the Bible. (UR can even be found in the writings of Paul) UR is quite different than being a Universalist. A Univerisalist believes there are many paths or that all religions lead to God. UR is based completely on the work of Jesus the Messiah. Yeshua is the only way to the Father.
1. Can you show the proof-texts that you are referring to please?

2. Do you believe some people will end up in Hell for eternity (as the bible teaches) - YES or NO?

3. Yeshua? Why don't you call Jesus "Jesus"? Which version of Christianity have you come to support?
 





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#18
We don't share the same beliefs Todd, but Sermon on the Mount > Nicene Creed. I know @JoChris doesn't want any extra-biblical sources but as Tolstoy understood, you can't hold both.
It is shorthand as I said. It should never be the starting point.
e.g. One weakness of using the Nicene Creed is that the RC church claims to be Christian because other churches agree with it on the Nicene Creed's core doctrines. People who do not know where the Roman Catholic church separates from the original church's doctrines can become confused.

I made that request because I was trying to make sure Todd didn't weave and dodge from direct questions about his viewpoint **on the bible** via using personal opinion/ others' websites.
I have seen many people use that time wasting tactic and so I try and nip that in the bud.
 





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#19
1. Can you show the proof-texts that you are referring to please?

2. Do you believe some people will end up in Hell for eternity (as the bible teaches) - YES or NO?

3. Yeshua? Why don't you call Jesus "Jesus"? Which version of Christianity have you come to support?
1. I have posted extensively on this forum the biblical basis for UR. Let me know if you can’t find it with the search function and I will post some links.
2. No not eternity. Again you can use the search function and find the threads were this has already been discussed.
3. Because names are very important in the Bible and understanding the meaning of the Messiah’s name is not possible if we only know him by his poorly translated English name.
I don’t “support” any “version” of Christianity. I am simply trying to follow the Messiah that Yahweh sent to show us the way back to him. If you insist on a label then I suppose I would say I am learning to become a follower of “the Way” as the believers in Jerusalem, lead by Peter, James and John, were called.
 





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#20
I made that request because I was trying to make sure Todd didn't weave and dodge from direct questions about his viewpoint **on the bible** via using personal opinion/ others' websites.
Can you please clarify what you mean here? What does accepting the Nicene Creed have to do weaving and dodging from direct questions about my viewpoint?