The Food Industry

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#21

umphreak

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#22
Well, that's not true. There are a lot of vegans who take 0 supplements and they say their doctors tell them they are completely healthy. Also almost every American has multiple vitamin deficiencies even while eating animal products.

Edit: Here's a link that explains it in more detail. http://thekindlife.com/blog/2013/08/do-vegans-need-supplements/
That link has zero references. Anybody can say a bunch of stuff, but without any evidence, nobody should believe it.
 





mecca

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#24
That link has zero references. Anybody can say a bunch of stuff, but without any evidence, nobody should believe it.
All the nutrients that a human needs come from plants. Even the animals that humans eat, eat plants... where do you think the animals themselves are supposed to get their nutrients and vitamins from? But over time, the soil has lost a lot of nutrients for the plants to take in and our food is getting less and less healthy and beneficial. That's why so many people (meat eating or not) have to take supplements. That's also why animals in factory farms are given hormones and fed fortified foods.

Really, I think most people should improve their diet and possibly take supplements if needed, cause the corporations that control our food, don't really care about us.
 





umphreak

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#26
All the nutrients that a human needs come from plants. Even the animals that humans eat, eat plants... where do you think the animals themselves are supposed to get their nutrients and vitamins from? But over time, the soil has lost a lot of nutrients for the plants to take in and our food is getting less and less healthy and beneficial. That's why so many people (meat eating or not) have to take supplements. That's also why animals in factory farms are given hormones and fed fortified foods.

Really, I think most people should improve their diet and possibly take supplements if needed, cause the corporations that control our food, don't really care about us.
Your first statement is factually inaccurate. Humans need vitamin A, which is not found in plants. Plants contain precursors to vitamin A that can be converted in the body to true vitamin A, but there are a lot of conditions that must be met for this to actually take place, and in some people the ability to convert is diminished. It is better to obtain vitamin A from animal products for this reason.

There are many other nutrients that are difficult to obtain enough of on a vegetarian diet, even one that includes dairy and eggs. In some cases this is because plant foods contain low levels of the nutrient; in other cases it's because the forms found in plant foods are less bioavailable, and in other cases it's because of antinutrients in plant foods that inhibit absorption. And sometimes it's a combination of these factors.

Yes, many animals eat exclusively plants, and they do this because they are herbivores. Their digestive tracts have significant differences from our own omnivorous digestive tracts, which are designed to digest both plant matter and animal products.

You're absolutely correct about the issue of mineral loss in the soils. It's because of the use of synthetic NPK fertilizers, which only give plants the 3 most essential nutrients they need to grow. Over time the other minerals get depleted. So yes, this is a big problem, and it does make it harder for us to get certain minerals in adequate amounts. Magnesium is probably the main issue for most people, because not only is it depleted in soils, but also few people eat enough magnesium-rich foods on a daily basis. If I remember correctly, about 75% of people in the United States don't get enough magnesium from their diets.

However, I'm pretty sure that hormones are generally given to animals in factory farms to make them grow faster, not because they have deficiencies due to soil depletion. And fortification of their feed is most likely done because animals in factory farms are not eating their natural diets. Cows are meant to eat grass, but in factory farms they are fed corn and soybeans, which have a totally different nutritional profile.
 





umphreak

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#28
Likely all need supplements, but at least the vegan puts effort into their diet.
The vegan may put in effort, but that effort is at least partially misguided. There are definitely aspects in which a vegan is likely to be making better choices than the average person - like eating plenty of leafy greens, for instance, although there are certainly vegans who eat a crappy diet with lots of junk food. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a well-planned omnivorous diet is far superior nutritionally than even the most well-planned vegan diet. I don't know if I would go so far as to say that all people need supplements. It is possible to obtain all the nutrients you need from food, but people would have to radically change their diets to do so. For instance, I make a conscious effort to eat foods rich in magnesium and I still don't get enough, so I take supplemental magnesium.
 





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#29
http://www.livestrong.com/slideshow/1011601-vegans-can-nutrients-without-taking-supplements/ Even if they did take supplements I don't think that's a bad thing they're just couscous of their health, not sure how that would make them idiotic
here's my link i think it's pretty thorough:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...3/vegetarian-vegan-nutrient-deficiencies.aspx
I highly recommend dr. mercola's site for medical info that livestrong...not sure who owns it or whatever
 





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#30
your guys' links are from blogs please check out my link it is written by an MD...
 





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#31
here's my link i think it's pretty thorough:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...3/vegetarian-vegan-nutrient-deficiencies.aspx
I highly recommend dr. mercola's site for medical info that livestrong...not sure who owns it or whatever
I'll check it out when I get home. It makes sense though, If we were meant to just eat plants then we would have the digestive system of an herbivore. I'm trying to have a better diet, I'm only 22 but I'm tired and sore all the time
 





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#32
Your first statement is factually inaccurate. Humans need vitamin A, which is not found in plants. Plants contain precursors to vitamin A that can be converted in the body to true vitamin A, but there are a lot of conditions that must be met for this to actually take place, and in some people the ability to convert is diminished. It is better to obtain vitamin A from animal products for this reason.

There are many other nutrients that are difficult to obtain enough of on a vegetarian diet, even one that includes dairy and eggs. In some cases this is because plant foods contain low levels of the nutrient; in other cases it's because the forms found in plant foods are less bioavailable, and in other cases it's because of antinutrients in plant foods that inhibit absorption. And sometimes it's a combination of these factors.

Yes, many animals eat exclusively plants, and they do this because they are herbivores. Their digestive tracts have significant differences from our own omnivorous digestive tracts, which are designed to digest both plant matter and animal products.

You're absolutely correct about the issue of mineral loss in the soils. It's because of the use of synthetic NPK fertilizers, which only give plants the 3 most essential nutrients they need to grow. Over time the other minerals get depleted. So yes, this is a big problem, and it does make it harder for us to get certain minerals in adequate amounts. Magnesium is probably the main issue for most people, because not only is it depleted in soils, but also few people eat enough magnesium-rich foods on a daily basis. If I remember correctly, about 75% of people in the United States don't get enough magnesium from their diets.

However, I'm pretty sure that hormones are generally given to animals in factory farms to make them grow faster, not because they have deficiencies due to soil depletion. And fortification of their feed is most likely done because animals in factory farms are not eating their natural diets. Cows are meant to eat grass, but in factory farms they are fed corn and soybeans, which have a totally different nutritional profile.
sounds like you know a lot about this maybe you can help me: my baby almost 2 has been nursing and vegetarian but has eggs, a lot of dairy, lentils and broccoli almost every day and a lot of whole grain. but i got freaked out the other day about iron and stuff, i gave him some wild alaskan salmon, but he didn't want it too much. which made me think he might not need it or he would devour...do you have any thoughts on this?
 





umphreak

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#33
sounds like you know a lot about this maybe you can help me: my baby almost 2 has been nursing and vegetarian but has eggs, a lot of dairy, lentils and broccoli almost every day and a lot of whole grain. but i got freaked out the other day about iron and stuff, i gave him some wild alaskan salmon, but he didn't want it too much. which made me think he might not need it or he would devour...do you have any thoughts on this?
It's true that dairy and eggs are not particularly good sources of iron compared to meats and seafoods, so you're right to be concerned about this. The thing about nutrition that I don't think a lot of people get is that it's very complex. It's not as simple as just eating foods that are rich in iron or any other nutrient. Nutrients interact with one another in the body in various ways. Some nutrients are needed to utilize other nutrients. So for example, to assimilate iron the body needs vitamin A. It makes it hard to give advice without going into a million detailed explanations, and without knowing more details about the situation.

What I will say is that personally, and from a nutritional standpoint, I would not feed a child a vegetarian diet. Eggs are one of the best foods you can eat and are excellent nutritionally for babies and children, so that's a great start, and dairy can also be great depending on what form it's in. But there are definitely advantages to including meat or seafood, iron being one of them. My son (almost 4) has also generally had eggs and dairy as his staple protein foods. But I always notice that when he does eat meat or fish, which has been more often lately, he is more content, calm, and agreeable than usual, and he plays happily by himself for long periods of time (when usually he is constantly wanting me to play with him). Long chain omega-3's are another advantage of seafoods in particular.

If it was me, I would try offering the salmon a couple more times and see if he goes for it. Babies sometimes need to try a food a few times before they decide they want it. Did you salt it? Many people avoid giving their babies salt but it's actually critical for brain development and growth in general, and it makes foods quite a lot more appealing!

Another thing I would like to mention is that whole grains and legumes are somewhat difficult to digest and obtain minerals (especially iron) from because of anti-nutrients they contain, and this could potentially be compounded by lower enzyme production in babies. Sourdough fermentation, sprouting, and various soaking methods can be used to reduce these anti-nutrients and improve digestibility, which also can dramatically increase mineral bioavailability if done right. The practices of soaking, souring, and fermenting grains and legumes are practically universal in traditional cultures that age these foods. You might consider soaking lentils and grains in warm non-chlorinated water overnight before cooking them (and make sure to discard the water, rinse well, and cook in fresh water if you decide to do this).
 





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#34
It's true that dairy and eggs are not particularly good sources of iron compared to meats and seafoods, so you're right to be concerned about this. The thing about nutrition that I don't think a lot of people get is that it's very complex. It's not as simple as just eating foods that are rich in iron or any other nutrient. Nutrients interact with one another in the body in various ways. Some nutrients are needed to utilize other nutrients. So for example, to assimilate iron the body needs vitamin A. It makes it hard to give advice without going into a million detailed explanations, and without knowing more details about the situation.

What I will say is that personally, and from a nutritional standpoint, I would not feed a child a vegetarian diet. Eggs are one of the best foods you can eat and are excellent nutritionally for babies and children, so that's a great start, and dairy can also be great depending on what form it's in. But there are definitely advantages to including meat or seafood, iron being one of them. My son (almost 4) has also generally had eggs and dairy as his staple protein foods. But I always notice that when he does eat meat or fish, which has been more often lately, he is more content, calm, and agreeable than usual, and he plays happily by himself for long periods of time (when usually he is constantly wanting me to play with him). Long chain omega-3's are another advantage of seafoods in particular.

If it was me, I would try offering the salmon a couple more times and see if he goes for it. Babies sometimes need to try a food a few times before they decide they want it. Did you salt it? Many people avoid giving their babies salt but it's actually critical for brain development and growth in general, and it makes foods quite a lot more appealing!

Another thing I would like to mention is that whole grains and legumes are somewhat difficult to digest and obtain minerals (especially iron) from because of anti-nutrients they contain, and this could potentially be compounded by lower enzyme production in babies. Sourdough fermentation, sprouting, and various soaking methods can be used to reduce these anti-nutrients and improve digestibility, which also can dramatically increase mineral bioavailability if done right. The practices of soaking, souring, and fermenting grains and legumes are practically universal in traditional cultures that age these foods. You might consider soaking lentils and grains in warm non-chlorinated water overnight before cooking them (and make sure to discard the water, rinse well, and cook in fresh water if you decide to do this).
thanks for taking the time to write this out! good call about the soaking i just heard about that. i do salt his food! that reminds me of another thing i think odd of the american babies' diet: if their brains double in size in the first year they probably need to eat fat! but everyone feeds them fruit and veg purees. my baby ate so much ghee i joke his brain is made of it:)
so what's your opinion on nutrition needs/cravings do you think i was right to assume that he would have a strong desire for the fish if he really needed it? i always follow his cravings because i assume they may pair with his needs...like one day he wants tons of dairy, the next day none. one day doesnt care for berries, next time devouring them.
and he loves new/different foods so i dont think he had an aversion tho this fish he had 5 or 6 bites just disinterested
 





umphreak

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#35
thanks for taking the time to write this out! good call about the soaking i just heard about that. i do salt his food! that reminds me of another thing i think odd of the american babies' diet: if their brains double in size in the first year they probably need to eat fat! but everyone feeds them fruit and veg purees. my baby ate so much ghee i joke his brain is made of it:)
so what's your opinion on nutrition needs/cravings do you think i was right to assume that he would have a strong desire for the fish if he really needed it? i always follow his cravings because i assume they may pair with his needs...like one day he wants tons of dairy, the next day none. one day doesnt care for berries, next time devouring them.
and he loves new/different foods so i dont think he had an aversion tho this fish he had 5 or 6 bites just disinterested
I do think you're correct to assume that he will choose the foods he needs if you offer him a wide variety of natural foods. There was actually a fascinating study done in the 1930's where babies in an orphanage were offered 33 different whole foods at every meal. The foods offered included cereals, meats (including organ meats), seafoods, bone marrow, eggs, milk, vegetables, fruits, and salt. Nothing was sweetened. The nurses who fed them were instructed to sit quietly with a spoon ready and to make no indication or hint of any sort to the babies as to which foods they should eat or how much. They were only to help feed a baby when the baby clearly indicated which food he/she wanted. Everything was recorded: the amounts of different foods eaten and spilled, bowel movements, height and weight. The babies were regularly x-rayed to check their bones and given blood tests to monitor their overall health. Though their diets were each quite different and sometimes appeared very limited in their choices, they were found to choose relatively similar amounts of macronutrients when each diet was looked at as a whole. Each child also seemingly chose specific foods that contained the nutrients they needed. For example, one baby with rickets ate cod liver oil (high in vitamin D) every day until the rickets was cured. If you had looked at their food choices for one day or a few days, it might have appeared unbalanced, but overall these children chose a very balanced and nutritious diet.

So yes, it's important to let babies follow their cravings to some degree because there is wisdom there, at least as long as the foods offered are unprocessed and healthy. On the other hand, if you're dealing with a child who has had commercially-processed foods before (which is practically every kid, right?), a lot of those foods have addictive qualities. They just kind of throw off your whole innate "compass", so-to-speak, that guides you to choose foods that have the nutrients you need. Many are hyper-palatable to a degree that natural and minimally processed foods can't match, and there's a lot of recent research that indicates that the obesity crisis has a lot to do with the excessive palatability of modern foods.

I generally let my son (3 going on 4) choose what he eats as long as it doesn't inconvenience me excessively, and my only rule is that he has to eat a decent amount of something containing protein before he is allowed to have treats (which are generally healthy treats anyway). The protein thing is largely for my own sanity because he gets extremely cranky anytime he eats a meal that is very low in protein (actually I think pretty much everyone is this way, we need complete protein consistently throughout the day to make neurotransmitters in the brain so we feel normal and happy). It's worked out really well for us so far, and I think his diet is really pretty good overall, despite him basically choosing what he eats.

That's great that your baby eats so much ghee. It's a great food for babies. You are so right about fat and babies brains! We usually do butter in our house, but when my son was a baby one of his favorite foods was an Indian tomato chicken curry that I always made with a ton of ghee. He could not get enough of that stuff!
 





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#36
I do think you're correct to assume that he will choose the foods he needs if you offer him a wide variety of natural foods. There was actually a fascinating study done in the 1930's where babies in an orphanage were offered 33 different whole foods at every meal. The foods offered included cereals, meats (including organ meats), seafoods, bone marrow, eggs, milk, vegetables, fruits, and salt. Nothing was sweetened. The nurses who fed them were instructed to sit quietly with a spoon ready and to make no indication or hint of any sort to the babies as to which foods they should eat or how much. They were only to help feed a baby when the baby clearly indicated which food he/she wanted. Everything was recorded: the amounts of different foods eaten and spilled, bowel movements, height and weight. The babies were regularly x-rayed to check their bones and given blood tests to monitor their overall health. Though their diets were each quite different and sometimes appeared very limited in their choices, they were found to choose relatively similar amounts of macronutrients when each diet was looked at as a whole. Each child also seemingly chose specific foods that contained the nutrients they needed. For example, one baby with rickets ate cod liver oil (high in vitamin D) every day until the rickets was cured. If you had looked at their food choices for one day or a few days, it might have appeared unbalanced, but overall these children chose a very balanced and nutritious diet.

So yes, it's important to let babies follow their cravings to some degree because there is wisdom there, at least as long as the foods offered are unprocessed and healthy. On the other hand, if you're dealing with a child who has had commercially-processed foods before (which is practically every kid, right?), a lot of those foods have addictive qualities. They just kind of throw off your whole innate "compass", so-to-speak, that guides you to choose foods that have the nutrients you need. Many are hyper-palatable to a degree that natural and minimally processed foods can't match, and there's a lot of recent research that indicates that the obesity crisis has a lot to do with the excessive palatability of modern foods.

I generally let my son (3 going on 4) choose what he eats as long as it doesn't inconvenience me excessively, and my only rule is that he has to eat a decent amount of something containing protein before he is allowed to have treats (which are generally healthy treats anyway). The protein thing is largely for my own sanity because he gets extremely cranky anytime he eats a meal that is very low in protein (actually I think pretty much everyone is this way, we need complete protein consistently throughout the day to make neurotransmitters in the brain so we feel normal and happy). It's worked out really well for us so far, and I think his diet is really pretty good overall, despite him basically choosing what he eats.

That's great that your baby eats so much ghee. It's a great food for babies. You are so right about fat and babies brains! We usually do butter in our house, but when my son was a baby one of his favorite foods was an Indian tomato chicken curry that I always made with a ton of ghee. He could not get enough of that stuff!
thanks so much for reminding me about that study! now i remember that's where i got that idea. so cool! well mine should have a good compass going, he hasn't been eating too long :), and we've managed to stay like 99.9% organic with almost no packaged foods or even left overs everything fresh. that is why i quit my job and am now super poor :)
 





Futility

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#37
Corporate control over the food supply is a disaster, i do a lot of travelling in rural parts of the country and its just acres of corporate farms. (The farm subsidy, disguised as an attempt to help mom and pop farmers, is actually just corporate welfare, but thats a different issue)

I really would like to cut out meat but its hard, maybe one day.

I love fish too but the oceans and lakes are so polluted im sure there are problems with that.
 





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#38
i'm very much against animal cruelty but i don't think i'd go vegan because you can't sustain a healthy life being one.. you wind up all sorts of other health problems... not my words... i have watched various vegan youtubers who have been vegan for years and have had to return to meat to help their bodies...

I have noticed veganism is becoming some new sort of trend.. cause the government want us all weak and powerless...

 





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#40
Recommend this documentary," What the health", it is currently on Netflix.
Factory farming is horrifying and would turn any meat eater into an ethical vegetarian/vegan and I really think we were not meant to eat animal products daily.
Also the amount of food is an issue. There is something to restricting the amount of time we eat.
Quite thought provoking choices.
 





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