The essence of the facts

[TrollingTroubles]

Jay Smilth using Dr Günter Lüling's 1970's Doctoral Thesis - lol he’s really desperate now. To think, this has been debunked in Arabic, German and now it’s been republished in English and is waiting for a smack down there as well.

what really got me giggling my titties off was how he also proposed that the Meccan and Central Arabian adversaries of Muhammad, the "mushrikun", (the "associators" or those who "associate" other gods to God), were not polytheist pagans but Trinitarian Christians He is a-historical and complete wacky, the guy was a pseudo linguistic historian of the lowest pecking order.

I’m hardly surprised Jay Smith is trying to regurgitate his vomit though, Jay Smith is a hate preacher, and isn’t allowed back in the United Kingdom. But here you are, using two failures to try and make a very desperate point.

I see you crumbling

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Jay Smilth using Dr Günter Lüling's 1970's Doctoral Thesis - lol he’s really desperate now. To think, this has been debunked in Arabic, German and now it’s been republished in English and is waiting for a smack down there as well.

what really got me giggling my titties off was how he also proposed that the Meccan and Central Arabian adversaries of Muhammad, the "mushrikun", (the "associators" or those who "associate" other gods to God), were not polytheist pagans but Trinitarian Christians He is a-historical and complete wacky, the guy was a pseudo linguistic historian of the lowest pecking order.

I’m hardly surprised Jay Smith is trying to regurgitate his vomit though, Jay Smith is a hate preacher, and isn’t allowed back in the United Kingdom. But here you are, using two failures to try and make a very desperate point.

I see you crumbling

I see you blustering...

 

[akay]

The Orientalists allege that Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), was subject to the Judeo-Christian influence of his time and that the Quran reflects this influence. It was suggested that Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), had faced two big problems if he were to embrace Judaism or Christianity. If he became a Christian, he would be bringing in the Christian Byzantine regime to Makkah, which would not be tolerated by the people of Makkah. The second problem was that he could not pretend that he knew more than the older members and priests of those two religions --
Judaism and Christianity. Thus, in both instances, he could not acquire leadership. Hence, Orientalists suggest that the Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), decided to reproduce the role of Moosaa (Moses) or ‘Eesaa (Jesus), may Allaah exalt their mention, because he saw that "they were men, and he could do what they had done."

Orientalists allege that the monotheistic influence on Islam was due to the presence of Christians and Jews in Makkah. They also suggested that there was a monotheist informant from one of those religions. However at a different stage, they also suggested that what the Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), received from his informant "would be factual knowledge" but the "meaning and interpretation of the facts" came to him "by the usual process of revelation".
They suggested that the gradual growth in accuracy of the Quran’s narration pertinent to biblical stories is evidence that Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), got these stories from an informant.
They alleged that the Quran replicated contemporary errors that were originally found in the Judeo-Christian scriptures.


Refutations
The Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), was only 12 years old when he met Baheera (a Christian monk) for a very short period of time on the way to Syria. Such a brief meeting would not have been sufficient to discuss religious doctrines. It is illogical to assume that a young boy could discuss religious doctrines and scriptural prophecy about the coming of the Messenger, etc, at this tender age.
The Orientalists acknowledged a part of this meeting, but they fail to acknowledge the other aspects, which speak about:

Baheera's knowledge concerning the prophecy in the Scriptures regarding the coming of the new prophet
Baheera’s recognition of the sign of prophethood in Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention )
Baheera’s advice to Abu Talib to take the boy home.

When confronted with the above information, William Muir (a Scottish Orientalist, 1819 – 1905 CE) even tried to explain it as a mistake or as a forgery of a designing monk. In order to downplay the importance of Baheera’s recognition of the sign of prophethood, Muir wrote a footnote saying that the report is full of absurdities, but later realizing his recklessness, he omitted the footnote in subsequent editions without altering the main text.
It is common knowledge that a trade caravan traveling in the harsh desert would concentrate their trade in populated areas only, and avoid wandering into deserted habitations and ruined townships or empty church assemblies, just for the sight seeing pleasure of a young boy. Yet Muir suggests that the caravan passed near Petra, Jerash, Ammon and other ruined cities and that these sights influenced the young Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ).


In Makkah, there were only a few Christians of humble social and intellectual status, being either slaves or petty retailers and mostly immigrants. Only one or two original residents of Makkah such as `Uthmaan bin Al-Huwayrith and Waraqah bin Nawfal had become Christians, the former out of personal or political considerations, and the latter as a result of his search for better faith. The Makkan community had some second-hand knowledge of these two religions of Judaism and Christianity.
The question is, would a person of the stature, knowledge and intelligence of Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) proceed to propound a new religion and challenge the credibility of both the prevailing systems of Judaism and Christianity only on the basis of hearsay and superficial knowledge of them, as suggested by Orientalists?
The Orientalists are not consistent in their allegation that:

The Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), was ambitious and therefore careful enough to avoid the political implications of embracing either Judaism or Christianity
He was careless enough to institute a new religion based on information picked up from bazaar gossips and Jewish storytellers at wine shops








Monotheistic Judeo-Christian Influence


It is naïve to say that Islam is blend of second-hand information about Judaism and Christianity with an inkling of Arab elements in it. It is absurd to suggest that the Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), was cognizant of the two religious systems.

The concept of prophethood, the memory of Ibraaheem (Abraham) may Allaah exalt his mention as a prophet and founder of the Ka`bah, which the Arabs universally cherished, as well as the rites of Hajj (pilgrimage to the Ka’bah) instituted by Ibraaheem may Allaah exalt his mention were unquestionably from before the time of Jews and Christians. Pre-Islamic Arabs, independent of any Jewish or Christian influence, knew the concept of Allaah as the supreme God. The teachings of Ibraaheem may Allaah exalt his mention found haven in Arabia long before the arrival of Judaism or Christianity and the Arabs were already acquainted with the word ‘Haneef’ as the worshipper of One God.


The Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), accused the contemporary Arabs, Jews and Christians of having deviated from the original teachings of their prophets and of having degenerated into polytheism. He also rejected what they claimed to be the teachings of their scriptures. So he cannot be misconstrued as having conceived the idea of monotheism from the Judeo-Christian influence.


The Quran does not maintain that it is teaching a new religion. Instead it upholds and revives the original teachings God has given through all Prophets of all nations. It claims that its teachings are the same as that of Ibraaheem (Abraham), Moosaa (Moses) and ‘Eesaa (Jesus), may Allaah exalt their mention, and speaks about all of them in glowing terms. Since every Orientalist agrees on the fact that Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), has not read any of the scriptures, therefore, his source of knowledge must be something else.


The rejection of Biblical teachings about the son or father of god was rejected even in the Makkan Soorahs (chapters of the Quran) long before the Prophet’s migration to Al-Madeenah. Hence, it is not correct to say that these renunciations came about, at the wake of the separation from the Jews and Christians in Al-Madeenah.


It was impossible to get even a glimpse of monotheism by observing Judaism and Christianity in those days. The practices of these two religious groups were steeped in the most debasing corruption and superstitions, which are vastly removed from monotheism.


The various reform movements in Christianity, particularly the Cluniac Movement, the Iconoclastic Movement and the Reformation started by Martin Luther bear testimony to the depth of degradation into which the Christians and Christianity of the day had descended. In a way, all these reform movements and the subsequent emphasis on monotheism, in spite of an adherence to the doctrines of Trinity and divinity of Christ are largely, results of the uncompromising monotheism enunciated and propagated by Islam. In other words, it was Islam that influenced the revival movements in Christianity and not the other way around



. WAS THE QUR'AN COPIED FROM THE BIBLE? - DR ZAKIR NAIK

هل أقتبس القران من الكتاب المقدس ؟ احمد ديدات يصعق شروش YouTube

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@TrollingTroubles

What I observe is that the modern Islamic narrative relating to the supposed corruption of the Bible rests heavily on the higher criticism that came out of the Enlightenment.

Many of these supposed authorities at these academic institutions, particularly in Germany were simply atheists or apostates who wanted to make a name for themselves by trying to chip away at the Bible for the last 200 years or so. Irrespective of whether I liked Griesbach, Wescott & Hort, the Allands, Bart Ehrman or even Christopher Hitchens as people, their ideas are the things I would seek to engage with and yes, do battle against.

On the above I have particularly enjoyed the work of Bill Cooper with his “authenticity” series as he encountered (and countered) much of this material during his studies.

Amazon.co.uk : bill cooper books

www.amazon.co.uk

There are many more authors covering similar topics and their findings frequently demolish much of 19th Bible criticism (e.g. the recent finding of the Curse Tablet at Mt Ebal calls into question Wellhausen’s “Documentary Hypothesis” JEDP narrative that had been constructed against the Books of Moses).

Now the issue is that until recently, people generally accepted (without investigation) the standard Islamic narrative. Numerous “Orientalists” who are perhaps no more friends to Islam than Bart Ehrman is to Christianity are asking questions of the text and the claimed history of Islam and the Qur’an. It does no good to try to attack the messengers of such criticism. If you want to defend the crumbling claim of the divinely revealed and perfectly preserved Qur’an, you will need to face these questions using critical faculties and not simply rhetoric.

I have for some time had an interest in combatting certain criticisms of the Bible, often from those who don’t accept the gospel, reject prophecy and the miraculous etc etc. Looking into these questions has greatly strengthened my confidence in the Bible. I suggest you dare yourself to do the same with the Qur’an.

 

[akay]

The Qur’an is the only book that is subject to scientific tests and proven correct by scholars

The scientific miracle is appropriate for the Western mentality. The Church’s control over matters in Europe, until it imposed its vision on scientific facts, and set a ceiling that these facts could not exceed, had a bad impact on Western man in his relationship with Christianity, and in his view of all religions. The Western mind became a material mind, believing in the senses and not giving weight to the unseen or “metaphysics,” as he calls it.

Hence, it was necessary to take into account this mentality ; It is better that we establish for them the evidence for the correctness of Islam, and the safety of the Qur’an from distortion,

That is why Professor Abdullah Allison says: “The scientific facts in Islam are the best method in islam



New articles have been recently issued as their writers are wondering: if these cosmic and scientific facts existed in the Qur'an 1400 years ago, then why were you waiting for the West scientists to discover them and you say that the Qur'an has preceded them in the speech about these facts? Moreover, you bear on the Qur'anic text what it cannot bear of interpretation and explanation?

The answer of these questions is found in the same verses that spoke about the coincidence between the science and the Qur'an. That is because these verses are basically directed for the disbelievers who do not believe in the Qur'an. Allah (Exalted is He) has directed those verses towards them because they who will see the cosmic facts and they who ill discover them.

Therefore, we find the divine eloquence addressing them while saying: "We will soon show them Our signs in the horizons and in themselves until it is evident to them that it is the Truth. And does it not suffice as to your Lord that He is The Ever-Present Witness over everything?" Surat Fussilat (Expounded) verse no.53

This clear verse is addressing those who suspect the Qur'an. It says that Allah will guide them to see His signs and miracles to realize and know foe certainty that the Qur'an is the truth and it is the book of Allah (Exalted is He). He is also addressing and calling them while saying: Will they not then contemplate the Qur’an? And if it had been from (any where) other than the Providence of Allah, indeed they would have found in it many difference (s). Surat An-Nisa (Women) verse no.82

Thus if the Qur'an has been sent by a humanbeing i.e. by anyone rather than Allah, we will see in it the differences and the contrasts. But if we see it agreeing and coinciding with the new science and doesn’t contradict with it, then this is a scientific evidence that it is coming from Allah (Exalted and Blessed is He) Who is the Creator of the universe and the revelator of the Qur'an.

This is the aim of the scientific miracle, to see in the Qur'an this symmetry in every thing and not to find any disturbance, mistake or contrast. That is because those are the characteristics of the book of Allah (Exalted is He). Whereas the books written by people however their writers write them perfectly, they still have contrast, disturbance or mistake.

The greatest evidence of the truth of this qur'anic fact is that the scientists started to change their cosmic terms, for example they change the term “space” to “building”. Thus they have discovered that they are mistaken in using this term so they left it and used what is more accurate and correct after their discovery of the dark matter.

But the Qur'an, which is descended by Allah Who knows the secrets of Heavens and Earth, has given us the accurate expression directly. Thus Allah has described his book saying: "Untruth does not come up to it before (Literally: between its two hands) it nor from behind it; a successive sending down from (One) Ever-Wise, Ever-Praiseworthy". Surat Fussilat (Expounded) verse no.42

Therefore if these discoveries have been done by believers who would then say that they are beforehandedly mentioned in the Qur'an, the disbelievers would deny their truthfulness. The miracle happens when you find that the person who denies the Qur'an unconsciously repeats it words. Here, the miraculous nature becomes greater than it when the discoveries would be done by the believers.

If we follow the qur'anic verses speaking about the cosmos, we’ll find that they are addressing the disbelievers who are far from the book of Allah and who are denying His words (Exalted and Blessed is He). As the believer believes all what is descended by Allah (Exalted and Glorified is He) and these scientific facts increase his certainty and faith in Allah, the Creator and Inventor, of this universe, Who says about the uniqueness of His creation what follows: "And you see the mountains, that you reckon inert, and (really) they pass by like clouds- the handiwork of Allah, Who has consummated everything; surely He is Ever-Cognizant of whatever you perform." Sû rat An-Naml (The Ant) verse no.88

Concerning the disbeliever, who denies the Qur'an and disbelieves the message of Islam, he should look and contemplate to reach convincingly to the faith of Islam and to realize from these facts the truthfulness of this religion and the truthfulness of the Seal of the Prophets i.e. Mohammad (May the best prayers and peace be upon him).






The Islamic belief about Jesus demystifies for us who the real Jesus was. Jesus in Islam was an extraordinary individual, chosen by God as a Prophet and sent to the Jewish people. He never preached that he himself was God or the actual son of God. He was miraculously born without a father, and he performed many amazing miracles such as healing the blind and the lepers and raising the dead – all by God’s permission.



Few verses in the Old and New Testaments are considered correct and are consistent with God's law for his prophets

Jesus did not write the bible that was revealed by God. Not even was it written immediately after his departure. He did not order or desire at any time in his life to write anything on his behalf. Therefore, the Bible which is in circulation today is not a representation of Jesus' teachings.

Out of the total of 27 Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by Paul. As opposed to Paul, the Master has not written a single word of the twenty-seven books. If you can lay your hands on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus - in red ink and the rest in normal black ink. Don't be shocked to find that in this so called Gospel of Jesus, over ninety percent of the 27 Books of the New Testament is printed in black ink!






Scientists' comments on Quran


https://www.islamicity.org/5437/scientists-comments-on-quran/



The Quran and Modern Science full Zakir naik youtube

DEBATE : THE QUR'AN AND THE BIBLE IN THE LIGHT OF SCIENCE | TALK + REBUTTAL + Q & A | DR ZAKIR NAIK

Bible Contradictions - Prof. Bart Ehrman

 

[TrollingTroubles]

I see you blustering...

That your best shot?

The Christian’s on this forum are bottom feeders. Don’t ever kid yourself dreaming of being big fish.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That your best shot?

The Christian’s on this forum are bottom feeders. Don’t ever kid yourself dreaming of being big fish.

I suspect you missed my reply.

repost.


@TrollingTroubles

What I observe is that the modern Islamic narrative relating to the supposed corruption of the Bible rests heavily on the higher criticism that came out of the Enlightenment.

Many of these supposed authorities at these academic institutions, particularly in Germany were simply atheists or apostates who wanted to make a name for themselves by trying to chip away at the Bible for the last 200 years or so. Irrespective of whether I liked Griesbach, Wescott & Hort, the Allands, Bart Ehrman or even Christopher Hitchens as people, their ideas are the things I would seek to engage with and yes, do battle against.

On the above I have particularly enjoyed the work of Bill Cooper with his “authenticity” series as he encountered (and countered) much of this material during his studies.

Amazon.co.uk : bill cooper books

There are many more authors covering similar topics and their findings frequently demolish much of 19th Bible criticism (e.g. the recent finding of the Curse Tablet at Mt Ebal calls into question Wellhausen’s “Documentary Hypothesis” JEDP narrative that had been constructed against the Books of Moses).

Now the issue is that until recently, people generally accepted (without investigation) the standard Islamic narrative. Numerous “Orientalists” who are perhaps no more friends to Islam than Bart Ehrman is to Christianity are asking questions of the text and the claimed history of Islam and the Qur’an. It does no good to try to attack the messengers of such criticism. If you want to defend the crumbling claim of the divinely revealed and perfectly preserved Qur’an, you will need to face these questions using critical faculties and not simply rhetoric.

I have for some time had an interest in combatting certain criticisms of the Bible, often from those who don’t accept the gospel, reject prophecy and the miraculous etc etc. Looking into these questions has greatly strengthened my confidence in the Bible. I suggest you dare yourself to do the same with the Qur’an.

 

[akay]

Why such variance in viewpoints? To begin with, different theological camps disagree on which books should be included in the Bible. One camp’s apocrypha is another’s scripture. Secondly, even among those books that have been canonized, the many variant source texts lack uniformity. This lack of uniformity is so ubiquitous that The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states, “It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS [manuscript] tradition is wholly uniform.”[2]



Not one sentence? We can’t trust a single sentence of the Bible? Hard to believe.

Maybe



The fact is that there are over 5700 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament.[3] Furthermore, “no two of these manuscripts are exactly alike in all their particulars…. And some of these differences are significant.”[4] Factor in roughly ten thousand manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate, add the many other ancient variants (i.e., Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic, Nubian, Gothic, Slavonic), and what do we have?

A lot of manuscripts



A lot of manuscripts that fail to correspond in places and not infrequently contradict one another. Scholars estimate the number of manuscript variants in the hundreds of thousands, some estimating as high as 400,000.[5] In Bart D. Ehrman’s now famous words, “Possibly it is easiest to put the matter in comparative terms: there are more differences in our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.”[6]

How did this happen?



Poor record keeping. Dishonesty. Incompetence. Doctrinal prejudice. Take your pick.



None of the original manuscripts have survived from the early Christian period.[7]/[8] The most ancient complete manuscripts (Vatican MS. No. 1209 and the Sinaitic Syriac Codex) date from the fourth century, three hundred years after Jesus’ ministry. But the originals? Lost. And the copies of the originals? Also lost. Our most ancient manuscripts, in other words, are copies of the copies of the copies of nobody-knows-just-how-many copies of the originals.

No wonder they differ



In the best of hands, copying errors would be no surprise. However, New Testament manuscripts were not in the best of hands. During the period of Christian origins, scribes were untrained, unreliable, incompetent, and in some cases illiterate.[9] Those who were visually impaired could have made errors with look-alike letters and words, while those who were hearing-impaired may have erred in recording scripture as it was read aloud. Frequently scribes were overworked, and hence inclined to the errors that accompany fatigue.



In the words of Metzger and Ehrman, “Since most, if not all, of them [the scribes] would have been amateurs in the art of copying, a relatively large number of mistakes no doubt crept into their texts as they reproduced them.”[10] Worse yet, some scribes allowed doctrinal prejudice to influence their transmission of scripture.[11] As Ehrman states, “The scribes who copied the texts changed them.”[12] More specifically, “The number of deliberate alterations made in the interest of doctrine is difficult to assess.”[13] And even more specifically, “In the technical parlance of textual criticism—which I retain for its significant ironies—these scribes ‘corrupted’ their texts for theological reasons.”[14]



Errors were introduced in the form of additions, deletions, substitutions and modifications, most commonly of words or lines, but occasionally of entire verses.[15] [16] In fact, “numerous changes and accretions came into the text,”[17] with the result that “all known witnesses of the New Testament are to a greater or lesser extent mixed texts, and even several of the earliest manuscripts are not free from egregious errors.”[18]



In Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman presents persuasive evidence that the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 7:53-8:12) and the last twelve verses of Mark were not in the original gospels, but added by later scribes.[19] Furthermore, these examples “represent just two out of thousands of places in which the manuscripts of the New Testament came to be changed by scribes.”[20]



In fact, entire books of the Bible were forged.[21] This doesn’t mean their content is necessarily wrong, but it certainly doesn’t mean it’s right. So which books were forged? Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, and Jude—a whopping nine of the twenty-seven New Testament books and epistles—are to one degree or another suspect.[22]

Forged books? In the Bible?



Why are we not surprised? After all, even the gospel authors are unknown. In fact, they’re anonymous.[23] Biblical scholars rarely, if ever, ascribe gospel authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. As Ehrman tells us, “Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.”[24] Graham Stanton affirms, “The gospels, unlike most Graeco-Roman writings, are anonymous. The familiar headings which give the name of an author (‘The Gospel according to …’) were not part of the original manuscripts, for they were added only early in the second century.”[25]



So what, if anything, did Jesus’ disciples have to do with authoring the gospels? Little or nothing, so far as we know. But we have no reason to believe they authored any of the books of the Bible. To begin with, let us remember Mark was a secretary to Peter, and Luke a companion to Paul. The verses of Luke 6:14-16 and Matthew 10:2-4 catalogue the twelve disciples, and although these lists differ over two names, Mark and Luke don’t make either list. So only Matthew and John were true disciples. But all the same, modern scholars pretty much disqualify them as authors anyway.

Why?



Good question. John being the more famous of the two, why should we disqualify him from having authored the Gospel of “John”?

Umm … because he was dead?



Multiple sources acknowledge there is no evidence, other than questionable testimonies of second century authors, to suggest that the disciple John was the author of the Gospel of “John.”[26] [27] Perhaps the most convincing refutation is that the disciple John is believed to have died in or around 98 CE.[28] However, the Gospel of John was written circa 110 CE.[29] So whoever Luke (Paul’s companion), Mark (Peter’s secretary), and John (the unknown, but certainly not the long-dead one) were, we have no reason to believe any of the gospels were authored by Jesus’ disciples



New Testament of the Bible regarding Jesus by Yusha ...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

“Growing up, I hated Muharram and Safar. These two months of mourning in Shi’ite Islam meant the already strict enforcement of religious orthodoxy by Iran’s regime would be that much more brutal. This year, Muharram began on July 30 and Safar ends on September 26. Instead of commemorating the Battle of Karbala, the beginning of the first Sunni-Shi’ite civil war in the year 680, this year Muharram and Safar might be signifying the defeat of Iranian Islam itself.

Because the religious lunar calendar rotates around the secular solar calendar observed in Iran, every child’s birthday is bound to fall during the months of mourning at some point. Once it does, it means no birthday parties for the next five or six years. Instead of celebrations with friends, we’d have secret gatherings of close family. I don’t know which was worse: missing the opportunity to spend time with my friends, or being forced to endure my stuffy old relatives!

In my early adulthood, my friends were more than happy to discuss and debate political issues with me, but debating religion was taboo. It wasn’t that they were going to turn me in, just that they would get very personal about it. They would shout down any dissenting opinion on Islam without debate because, while political criticism of the regime was a societal norm despite the regime’s best efforts, apostasy and blasphemy remained off limits. As soon as someone would come close to criticizing Islam, everybody’s inner authoritarian would rush to end the discussion before it began….”

The Islamic Republic Is Killing Islam in Iran - The Bulwark

There are signs that the population is losing its religion.

www.thebulwark.com

 

[akay]

Souls of the believers and the disbelievers after death

Souls of the believers and the disbelievers after death

Is it true that the soul of a dead person roams in his house for 40 days Do the souls of the dead visit each other in their graves

www.islamweb.net

 

[TokiEl]

Surah 4 An-Nisa, Ayat 171-171 (4:171) People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion,211 and attribute to Allah nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His command212 that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him (which led to Mary's conception).213 So believe in Allah and in His Messengers,214 and do not say: (Allah is a) trinity215. Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. Allah is indeed just one God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son.216 To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth.217 Allah is sufficient for a guardian.218

 

[akay]

Some polemicists among Christians, having seen the scale of conversions from Christianity to Islam, got into the idea of propagating false conversions in the opposite direction. It is not a question here of denying this reality, but simply of exposing the false accounts of conversion which circulate on the Internet.



So, in my opinion, this “testimony” should be classified under the rubric of “ignorants pretending to be ex-Muslims”



.There are so many on the internet,



They are really fake



see here



إقراي سورة الفاتحة، انكشاف عظيم عن أمريكية تدعى أنها مرتدة

ركن المتحدثين - حسين والمرتدة

 

[TokiEl]

Afshin is still at it telling the same testimony... about the time when he was choked by an evil spirit and saved by Jesus Christ.

18:02 - 21:44​

There are lots of such testimonies... and also i can attest to the saving power of His name. So i don't believe in Jesus... i know Him.

 

[Lyfe]

Is the book of Hebrews accepted among Muslims?

 

[akay]

The miracles of Christ in his time, only
God gave the miracles to Christ

like healing people

But now Christ does not heal nor save anyone

Just personal experiences that don't matter


Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’’

Matthew 7.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom THOU hast sent", I HEARD, YOU are the ONLY TRUE God and I am HIS messenger!!! THIS was the mission of Jesus on this earth, to call HIS people to the worship of the ONLY true God and to show HIS people that THEIR God sent him with wonders, signs and miracles to prove that he was indeed sent as a messenger TO them!!! This has been the way of the Creator, to send MEN with signs and wonders as their bona fides, to prove who they are, so that the people believe!



see here
P1 - I Can Heal You! Hashim & Healing Christian | Speakers Corner | Hyde Park

P2 - I Can Heal You! Hashim & Healing Christian | Speakers Corner | Hyde Park

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\




2-




Any words in the Bible by any writer that contradict the words of Christ are not taken into account



Christ was not abolished the law of the ancient prophets, but rather followed their religion, and Christ did not see the New Testament



Read this text

“3 Tell them that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Cursed is the one who does not obey the terms of this covenant—’”” Jeremiah 3:11



so

You are cursed



“Those who forsake instruction praise the wicked,

but those who heed it resist them. . Proverbs 28:4



16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.



II Timothy 3 - Books 16-17





Here Paul was talking about the Old Testament because the New Testament had not yet been written.



Also, the New Testament does not contain anything about marriage laws (unlike the Old Testament). If a Christian claims that he does not follow the Old Testament, then in this case he has the right to marry his mother or sister because nothing in the New Testament forbids that!







Despite this, we find that Paul has a different special law

About the law of Christ and about the Jewish law, which is

The Sharia that is now followed by the Christians, and we mention some of his sayings

by which the law openly rejects, saying,





“17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!” 2 Corinthians 5:17



For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 5:18
The Prophet Jesus peace be upon him,
came to complete the law of the ancient prophets
Without decrease or increase





. And Jesus himself was very clear about the Old Testament, the prophets, and the primary laws

Jesus was very clear that he would not change any of the teachings of the laws in the Old Testament. Rather, he adds to that by saying that Christians have to follow these laws literally, until the Day of Judgment.





That was in the time of Christ

But now the Old Testament and the New Testament are corrupted





How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8, quoted from the New American Standard Bible). Here the Prophet Jeremiah is scolding the Israelites that their corrupt scribes have made the Law of the Lord (that is the Torah) into a lie by their lying pen (that is the pen they used to change the verses). This proof in the Book, the People of the Book are carrying, clearly establishes that their Book has been corrupted by their own scribes.







Jesus own language of Aramaic, which is a Semitic language, an eastern language similar to Hebrew and Arabic. The original extant copies of the gospels are in Greek, a western language. Now there are four gospels, supposed to have been written by four of the disciples of Jesus: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Was Jesus quoting, from these Greek books, written many years after his disappearance when he was addressing his people? Certainly not! He was quoting from the Book he received from God, which was the original Bible in the language of his own people. The argument that God revealed his Bible to Jesus in Greek is like saying that God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad in English!





So the original Gospel was not in Greek, it was in the language Jesus and his people spoke and understood. We have no record or evidence to indicate that; this original Gospel was written down by scribes under Jesus’s own supervision. I repeat: We have no original Gospel existing now as a single volume, in the original language. Every educated Christian must know this fact! (Those who are in doubt can go to the Jerome Biblical Commentary, or any authentic book by genuine scholars that deal with the subject. Nevertheless, missionaries give the impression that this is only a baseless charge by Muslims. Instead of the original Gospel, we have four books written by persons who are supposed to have been Jesus’s disciples. I say supposed,





because modern scholars who have done research on the subject, question the claim that these were the disciples of Jesus, in the first place. These four books called the Gospels are placed at the beginning of some 27 books, bound together into one volume, called The New Testament. Out of these 27 books, thirteen were written by a man called St. Paul. This Paul was not a disciple of Jesus, nor has Jesus met him, as he himself testifies. Modern Christians are ardent followers of St. Paul, even in cases where Paul clearly contradicts Jesus!



The Islamic request to Christians is for them to please follow Jesus, and not to follow Paul, who preaches a different gospel! The Islamic belief about the present Book, which the Christians use as the word of God, called the New Testament is that it is not the Gospel of Jesus mentioned in the Qur’an. Still, Muslims believe that the Gospels in the bible contain some teachings of Jesus, as well as the interpretations of the writers of those books, whoever they might have been.

What Islam says about the Bible - IslamOnline

The article treats the Qur'anic position about the Torah and Bible

islamonline.net

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

 

[TrollingTroubles]

that ending though looool

 

[TokiEl]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom THOU hast sent"

There were a lot of gods... and even jews served several gods.

The only true God has been made known by Jesus Christ.


So if you want to know the only true God... you must listen to Jesus.

You must sit down and shut up... and study what Jesus said about God.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

There were a lot of gods... and even jews served several gods.

The only true God has been made known by Jesus Christ.


So if you want to know the only true God... you must listen to Jesus.

You must sit down and shut up... and study what Jesus said about God.

Jesus said to worship God, not himself nor any kinda Holy Ghost.

only the Muslims do that.

facts!

 

[Orwell's mentor]

Jesus said to worship God, not himself nor any kinda Holy Ghost.

only the Muslims do that.

facts!

As a Unitarian Christian, I disagree. This was brought up in this thread here, but apparently no one on here was interested in reading the research or watching the video that dispels the trinity perspective. Instead, any information that went outside that framework was treated like this:

​

I think it's what has made these forums more or less an echo chamber/ghost town, rather than a good reservoir of information to exchange information or ideas. Difference of opinions aren't even considered, much less tolerated.

 

[akay]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom THOU hast sent"


There is no way that the God here is referenced as being TWO.
It, "true God" is clearly used in the singular.
Boy do you have interpretation issues

Hence -> this now is the eternal life, that they should know YOU -> (singular) (Father) the ONLY -> true God (singular) AND (another) Jesus Christ.
Christ, peace be upon him, the prophet of God


Jesus in John 17:3 is Clearly addressing the Father (singular) as THE only true God and not even implying that he is part of the makeup of this one true God.


the truth


Christ and the Holy Spirit are messengers of God
they have no authority except by God’s permission




God is only the Father
Christ is the Messenger of God
The Holy Spirit is an angel to transmit revelation to the prophets



God is One, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them
But people have turned away from worshiping God according to their own whims

God is one and there are not many gods
god has no wife, or biological son

Christ is the son of God in the figurative sense only because all the prophets are sons of God
The God we worship is (the Father), as Western Christians call him

But Muslims and Christians of the East, call him allah



Nowhere in the scriptures can we deduce that the One God is an association of 3 Gods. On the contrary, the Catholic Creed clearly tells us that there is only one God: the Almighty Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
It is a heretical interpretation that was developed from the 3rd century that turned the One God into an association of three Gods...which is not in the scriptures. The Scriptures never refer to the Holy Spirit, the Angel of the Eternal, the Logos or the Son as being other Gods!


see herr


The Only True God of Jesus in John 17:3 | Zakir Hussain and Sh.Uthman | Speakers Corner | Hyde park

Dr Zakir Naik uses Bible to prove Trinity is a Lie

If Jesus said God is One, why does the trinity exist? - Q&A - Yusha Evans




.