The egg and God

seekinheart

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“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." (Malachi 3:6)

The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy. (Deuteronomy 33:27)


Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. (Isaiah 43:10)

“This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation." (Exodus 3:15)


"Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. (Psalm 102:25-27)

What does that really prove? Do you think once you "know" God, you know all there is to know, revelation unfolds just as it did with Gods plan for the world. God knew what would happen from beginning to end, at only certain times did he reveal things. There was still a period between when all those things are quoted that God was not revealed. This is kinda like saying, well God was never a burning bush til the bush came along, so, now everything after the burning bush is false.

I just think, that theres this misconception about the trinity and paganism and the whole catholicism, nicean creed propaganda, that was perpetuated in things like the davinci code, looks like its done the trick here. It's kind of sad, Jesus was clearly foreshadowed in Old Testament, and he clearly revealed who he was in the new testament, better people than you or I have debated this, and If you can't see he was claiming to be God don't really know what to tell you. Also when you cant conceive God can be 3 in 1, you put a limitation on God and you put him in a box. I know that alot of people struggle with the trinity, just comes down to wether you believe Jesus was who he said he was, and the woven prophecy throughout the Bible for him, and then you have to come to the conclusion that the trinity is an actual thing, which is more believable than, just because that doctrine doesnt sit with you means it nullifies everything pointing to it, and the entire Bible, and Jesus's personhood.
 






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What does that really prove?
That the "Old Testament" is completely consistent about this and that it is blasphemy to deny what the Torah says.

Do you think once you "know" God, you know all there is to know
Of course not. Likewise I question your motives if you're spiting this rhetoric out while claiming to know that God is 'three in one', when God clearly states otherwise.


Also when you cant conceive God can be 3 in 1, you put a limitation on God and you put him in a box.
No, you put a limitation on God when you claim that God has parts, and that God incarnated into a body to die for you because (in your head) God somehow couldn't provide salvation otherwise (which is itself self-contradictory because Jesus was not the first man, Jesus was supposedly born in 0 CE and died 33 CE). You put a limitation on God by claiming that God is something less than absolute and something less than a Unity (Oneness).

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
(Deuteronomy 6:4-6)
 






seekinheart

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That the "Old Testament" is completely consistent about this and that it is blasphemy to deny what the Torah says.



Of course not. Likewise I question your motives if you're spiting this rhetoric out while claiming to know that God is 'three in one', when God clearly states otherwise.




No, you put a limitation on God when you claim that God has parts, and that God incarnated into a body to die for you because (in your head) God somehow couldn't provide salvation otherwise (which is itself self-contradictory because Jesus was not the first man, Jesus was supposedly born in 0 CE and died 33 CE). You put a limitation on God by claiming that God is something less than absolute and something less than a Unity (Oneness).

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
(Deuteronomy 6:4-6)

hey thats great, so Jesus wasnt the messiah? what kind of distorted doctrine are we getting into here. Nothing you quoted specifically contradicts the trinity.
 






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hey thats great, so Jesus wasnt the messiah?
I never said that, either way (is or isn't).
Since you bring it up though, do you know what the word "Messiah" (which is an english evolution of the word "Meshiha", but which is properly called "Moschiach" in it's original Hebrew) means?
 






seekinheart

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I never said that, either way (is or isn't).
Since you bring it up though, do you know what the word "Messiah" (which is an english evolution of the word "Meshiha", but which is properly called "Moschiach" in it's original Hebrew) means?
nope I don't, but what im getting at is if hes not the messiah, who is? and where is the fulfilment of the old testament, if not the new testament, I don't know how you really reconcile that with whatever it is you believe.
 






Lisa

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How come God didn’t say anything Himself about being 3-1? How come God said no one is beside Him then send Jesus to say he’s at the right hand of God? The trinity never has and never will make sense with the OT. The Creator is described as One and One alone in the OT, while the god of the NT becomes 3-1.No amount of mumbo jumbo will change that
Does God say He is only One in the OT?

Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.​
‭‭
Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.​
‭‭
What is God talking about here? When He refers to Himself as Us abs Our?
 






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Does God say He is only One in the OT?

Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.​
‭‭
Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.​
‭‭
What is God talking about here? When He refers to Himself as Us abs Our?
The Qur'an uses the same plurality, it does not imply that God is anything but one:

"Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know."
(Qur'an, Surah 2:151
- which is God talking to Muhammad)

"And most certainly We gave Moses the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew."
(Qur'an, Surah 2:87)


etc.


In the case of the book of Genesis though, it is clear polemic against the creation myths of the Babylonians. I could link you to some interesting comparative studies about it but you probably wouldn't read them, lol.
 






Lisa

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So I reread your op just to be sure that I didn't miss something. So as I thought, I understood your analogy. You don't seem to be able to understand how I am showing that this is an insufficient analogy because it lacks the complexity to integrate the information in the verse that I quoted.

"that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." John 17:21

Basically, you are admitting that there is no way to include this verse in your analogy and it is therefore insufficient according to your own standards.

Veneration of Mary, praying to Mary, having imaginary tea parties with the mother of God, is not a legitimate reason to label someone as being unsaved. That is based on your own preference and exercise of your own religious freedom to basically make up a version of Christianity that you like the best out of thin air. Your version of Christianity is not something that can be legitimately supported by any sort of sola scriptural perspective.

You are forming judgments in places that the Bible remains silent and everything you are saying about this justifying your belief that Catholics aren't saved can be considered extra-biblical information.
Honestly, I just thought you needed to reread my op to answer your questions. I’m not sure what John 17:21 has to do with my op?

Well, when you worship a human as God..thats a problem...a huge problem. You can’t have any other God’s before God. And the Mary they are worshipping isn’t the actual Mary...they’ve made her something she isn’t and was never supposed to be.

I didn’t make up a version of Christianity...and I’m not sure what you mean by my version is not supported by sola scriptura. I’ve posted scripture that backs up my belief in the op.


The Bible isn’t silent on the trinity though and as for the catholics..you can’t have a different gospel.
 






Lisa

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The Qur'an uses the same plurality, it does not imply that God is anything but one:

"Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know."
(Qur'an, Surah 2:151
- which is God talking to Muhammad)

"And most certainly We gave Moses the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew."
(Qur'an, Surah 2:87)


etc.


In the case of the book of Genesis though, it is clear polemic against the creation myths of the Babylonians. I could link you to some interesting comparative studies about it but you probably wouldn't read them, lol.
The quran isn’t the Bible...God means what He says.

Why would I need to read those studies? I’m secure in the knowledge that the Word of God is sufficient.
 






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The quran isn’t the Bible...
Correct, because Qur'an is the word of God and the Bible is just a compilation of books of man.

Anyway, my point was that plurality doesn't indicate anything. The Qur'an uses plurality, many religious texts do.

Why would I need to read those studies?
To comparatively understand the purpose (and genius) of the phrasing "let us make man in our own image" in contrast to the Babylonian creation myth. It's a very witty stab, which turns a literal "us" (as in many deities) into one, as a way of attacking the Babylonian religion as inferior to the Israelite.
In other words, it is a polemic to show that for the Israelites their 'one god' is superior to all the many many Babylonian deities, each of who in the Babylonian creation myth take on their own roles in the various days of creation, etc.

All of this stuff is way over your head, so I'm not even saying this to you now but to those reading the thread. It helps to actually learn things.

I’m secure in the knowledge that the Word of God is sufficient.
I'm glad that you've accepted the Qur'an, it warms my heart to know you've found the truth. God bless.
 






Lisa

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Correct, because Qur'an is the word of God and the Bible is just a compilation of books of man.

Anyway, my point was that plurality doesn't indicate anything. The Qur'an uses plurality, many religious texts do.
Actually the quran is satanic and so is its teachings. The Bible is written by different men but they were all inspired by God.


Anyway, my point was that plurality doesn't indicate anything. The Qur'an uses plurality, many religious texts do.
And my point is that God doesn’t lie and He used Us and Our because He is three but One God.


It's a very witty stab, which turns a literal "us" (as in many deities) into one, as a way of attacking the Babylonian religion as inferior to the Israelite.
Its not a boast..God is One God but three persons. And God is superior to any God because He’s real and the other gods in the world aren’t...like allah the god whose name means god..:rolleyes:



I'm glad that you've accepted the Qur'an, it warms my heart to know you've found the truth.
Lol! Ya know I meant the Bible..
 






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Actually the quran is satanic and so is its teachings.
No, Lisa-the-Satanist, you're Satanic. Lol, can't fool anyone.

The Bible is written by different men but they were all inspired by God.
Written also by Satan.

And my point is that God doesn’t lie and He used Us and Our because He is three but One God.
If you're correct about God not lying, then the Trinity is false. If God does lie though, then the trinity can be true (even though it's not in the Bible anywhere and never even implied);

“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." (Malachi 3:6)

The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy. (Deuteronomy 33:27)

Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. (Isaiah 43:10)

“This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation." (Exodus 3:15)

"Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. (Psalm 102:25-27)


Lol! Ya know I meant the Bible..
No you didn't because the Bible has never been the "word of God". The Qur'an is the word of God, the Bible is only a compilation of books people wrote about history.
Even John 1:1 completely disagrees with you.
 






rainerann

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Honestly, I just thought you needed to reread my op to answer your questions. I’m not sure what John 17:21 has to do with my op?

Well, when you worship a human as God..thats a problem...a huge problem. You can’t have any other God’s before God. And the Mary they are worshipping isn’t the actual Mary...they’ve made her something she isn’t and was never supposed to be.

I didn’t make up a version of Christianity...and I’m not sure what you mean by my version is not supported by sola scriptura. I’ve posted scripture that backs up my belief in the op.


The Bible isn’t silent on the trinity though and as for the catholics..you can’t have a different gospel.
"that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." John 17:21

I know you don't see what it has to do with your op because it challenges your egg idea, so you have put your blinders on. Look at it again. It says May they also be in Us. How do you suppose that believers are going to able to join the egg idea?

The main problem with the egg idea is that it creates a finite picture. So you could say that people would paint glue to themselves and get a running start and try to stick themselves to the egg. The problem with this is that at some point, they will run out of space.

You could say that the egg becomes mixed and remains separate in some respects the way an egg mixes with cake batter, but you run into the same problem. At some point, you run out of egg. So in order to maintain the idea that the egg represents God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus. You are essentially saying that around 144,000 will be saved because there is a finite amount of space, which is fine if God only remains separate.

I'm sure you need a reminder at this point that the verse says, "May they also be in Us." Because this is the same as saying there is a way for us to be joined to God and there is no way to be joined to an egg, which is the same thing as saying these are not things that can be fully understood. So stop acting like you have seen this for yourself and you are relating a 100% accurate picture.

When you say that it is a huge problem to have any other God's, you are still assuming that idolatry disqualifies you from salvation and you cannot do this with a sola scriptural view. You can support the conclusion that the worship of Mary would be idolatry, but the part about this disqualifying you from receiving salvation. You have completely made this up.

In reality, and this will go back to the subject of healing, there is supposed to be conclusive evidence that results from our actions according to the Bible. Even though there is no way to support that worship of Mary would be a way to disqualify you from receiving salvation, the evidence is not there that this is going to be a fruitful effort.

Truth is identified when there is resulting evidence that something is truth and following truth or finding the narrow road, is ascertained by consequent evidence, which is why it seems reasonable that if we were following the same truth as the apostles. This would result in consequent evidence of healings, but I realize you are fine with dumbing down the youth and expecting them to survive without this.

So while the worship (I have put worship in italics because I don't actually think they worship Mary like you are suggesting). This worship that you mention will be useless basically. It will basically be a waste of time because it will not lead to anything useful. Something of a placebo effect. However, there is still no reason to claim or make assumptions that this means that someone is not saved.

The main take away is that following the truth produces evidence. If it does not produce evidence, then it is not the truth.
 






Sen

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This is interesting. As I understood you use the egg as a metaphor to describe the Holy Trinity?

I don't think Father, son and Holy Spirit are three different "persons" but three components of the One infinite creator.

Father=Mind
Son= Body (flesh and blood/ materialism)
Holy Spirit = Soul

This is not just God. These three components are what very "being" (every living intelligence ) made of. I see you have taken Holy Trinity literally. It is figurative.

Oneness of this holy trinity creates intelligence life. It does not mean there are more than one to God. God is One. These three components are what God is made of. Each one of us is part of God (tiny puzzle pieces of one big puzzle, metaphorically speaking). Therefore, each one of us have these three components within us.

This is universal knowledge. Not just Christianity.
 






Lisa

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that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." John 17:21

I know you don't see what it has to do with your op because it challenges your egg idea, so you have put your blinders on. Look at it again. It says May they also be in Us. How do you suppose that believers are going to able to join the egg idea?
Ok..well...you didn’t see that we join in them...or what scriptures says is we are also in them. Which actually goes back to the idea that there is a trinity...we are joining them. They are already One. We don’t join them as God but we do join them as the vine to the branches...they are still separate and above us
John‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.​
‭‭
The egg analogy stands.

The main problem with the egg idea is that it creates a finite picture. So you could say that people would paint glue to themselves and get a running start and try to stick themselves to the egg. The problem with this is that at some point, they will run out of space.

You could say that the egg becomes mixed and remains separate in some respects the way an egg mixes with cake batter, but you run into the same problem. At some point, you run out of egg. So in order to maintain the idea that the egg represents God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus. You are essentially saying that around 144,000 will be saved because there is a finite amount of space, which is fine if God only remains separate.
The egg analogy helps someone understand how God can be three persons yet One God. You are trying to make things way more complicated than they are.

The egg does represent God, Jesus and Holy Spirit in that there are three parts/persons and the egg also has three parts and is also known as one egg...pretty simple to understand..and doesn’t include cooking or baking.

I never mentioned the 144,000 that is a separate thing.

I'm sure you need a reminder at this point that the verse says, "May they also be in Us." Because this is the same as saying there is a way for us to be joined to God and there is no way to be joined to an egg, which is the same thing as saying these are not things that can be fully understood. So stop acting like you have seen this for yourself and you are relating a 100% accurate picture.
I had absolutely no idea what you were trying to say with that verse until now...we read the Bible very differently you and I.

When you say that it is a huge problem to have any other God's, you are still assuming that idolatry disqualifies you from salvation and you cannot do this with a sola scriptural view. You can support the conclusion that the worship of Mary would be idolatry, but the part about this disqualifying you from receiving salvation. You have completely made this up.
It is a huge problem to have any other God’s..God doesn’t like it and you could be deceived by those Gods and fall away from the living God. Its Biblical....that’s Israel’s history with God.

If you are worshipping Mary..yep I would agree that it disqualifies you from salvation..you’ve turned away from the One true God to myths and other gods. No, I have’t made any of it up. You must be a Mary worshipper to get this bent over Mary, eh?

This would result in consequent evidence of healings, but I realize you are fine with dumbing down the youth and expecting them to survive without this.
Who’s dumbing down anyone here? I mean you want to have proof to things that require faith...who’s the wrong one here when we are told..
Romans‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.​
‭‭
So while the worship (I have put worship in italics because I don't actually think they worship Mary like you are suggesting). This worship that you mention will be useless basically. It will basically be a waste of time because it will not lead to anything useful. Something of a placebo effect. However, there is still no reason to claim or make assumptions that this means that someone is not saved.
How can someone worship another god and expect that the One true God won’t take offense...you’ve said you’ve read the Bible repeatedly...how did God take it when the Israelites went after other gods?

The main take away is that following the truth produces evidence. If it does not produce evidence, then it is not the truth.
You have to trust the Bible for truth. Trust that God doesn’t lie and that He preserved His word so people can know the truth about Him, about the world around us and about us. One must have faith first...
Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.​
‭‭
 






Lisa

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This is interesting. As I understood you use the egg as a metaphor to describe the Holy Trinity?

I don't think Father, son and Holy Spirit are three different "persons" but three components of the One infinite creator.

Father=Mind
Son= Body (flesh and blood/ materialism)
Holy Spirit = Soul

This is not just God. These three components are what very "being" (every living intelligence ) made of. I see you have taken Holy Trinity literally. It is figurative.

Oneness of this holy trinity creates intelligence life. It does not mean there are more than one to God. God is One. These three components are what God is made of. Each one of us is part of God (tiny puzzle pieces of one big puzzle, metaphorically speaking). Therefore, each one of us have these three components within us.

This is universal knowledge. Not just Christianity.
The trinity is literal.. As you saw in my op...God created man in OUR likeness. He isn’t using this figuratively. As we saw that His Spirit was moving over the surface of the waters...sounds like He is separate yet part of God.

I didn’t say there was more than one God..I said that there is One God but three roles and I used an egg to help people try to understand how that could possibly be.

Man was made in God’s likeness..and He breathed life into His nostrils..He also is there when we are in our mother’s womb..working.
Psalms‬ ‭139:13‬ ‭
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.​
‭‭
We are not God though.
 






Sen

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The trinity is literal.. As you saw in my op...God created man in OUR likeness. He isn’t using this figuratively. As we saw that His Spirit was moving over the surface of the waters...sounds like He is separate yet part of God.

I didn’t say there was more than one God..I said that there is One God but three roles and I used an egg to help people try to understand how that could possibly be.

Man was made in God’s likeness..and He breathed life into His nostrils..He also is there when we are in our mother’s womb..working.
Psalms‬ ‭139:13‬ ‭
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.​
‭‭
We are not God though.
My bad. My point being, you took Father, Son, Holy spirit, these three words literally. These words are figuratives for Mind, body and soul.
 






Lisa

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My bad. My point being, you took Father, Son, Holy spirit, these three words literally. These words are figuratives for Mind, body and soul.
No they are literally a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Jesus was a real person and also God and He talked about His Father and He also talked about the Holy Spirit as real. Mind, body and soul has nothing to do with this except that we should love him with all our heart and soul and mind.
 






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