The earth is flat

Red Sky at Morning

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It may surprise you to learn that I am aware of and have no problem with any of that. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the Bible uses figures of speech, as in “windows of heaven.”
A great study....


One danger with the use of picture language in certain passages is that it can create very strange conceptions when taken at face value only. I don’t mean liberalism here, just the issue that some things really are idioms and figures of speech.

Taken to a pathological degree, God is both a man and a mother hen! Jesus would be a loaf with a door in him. The problem for this conversation on flatness is one of that sort - there may have even been a “Hebrew understanding” of the structure of the universe based on a blending of their available knowledge with the actual words of God on the topic.

To this last point, I would submit that the understanding of “end times scenarios” within the Christian world has developed vastly through the centuries, and perhaps especially within our own lifetimes. The words of the Bible are unchanged but, I would argue, our comprehension of how these things might play out has grown exponentially.

On one topic, the “firmament”, recent cosmological research appears to harmonise light from distant stars with a young earth (without reference to its shape)

I offer a 4d hypercube by way of a mental warm up (which gives me the kind of feeling Ezekiel must have had with his vision of wheels!!)...

4F8BD5CB-4622-4181-82EA-F052E28BC3BD.gif

And a 2019 talk with cosmologist Russell Humphries to consider.

 
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meximonk

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Indeed.
The moon is still round. :)

And flat is a bit of a misnomer, concerning the biblical model of the earth.

...
Not to be rude, but myself or anyone else who speaks Hebrew will tell you this is hogwash. Sheol literally means, "the place of the dead, the grave." Hell is a Greek Concept, no religious Jew believes in it or ever did.
 

meximonk

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Also, archeological discoveries in Eretz Yisrael prove that Solomon knew the Earth was round. And, I know this is going to burst some of your bubbles, but Solomon had merchant ships that traded with North American Indians.
 

elsbet

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Not to be rude, but myself or anyone else who speaks Hebrew will tell you this is hogwash. Sheol literally means, "the place of the dead, the grave." Hell is a Greek Concept, no religious Jew believes in it or ever did.
Correct.

Strong details--

7585. sheol
Strong's Concordance
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole'
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of uncertain derivation

I'm not offended. Tbh, I'm not sure how your declaration applies to my post. Hogwash or otherwise.

...
 

A Freeman

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Not to be rude, but myself or anyone else who speaks Hebrew will tell you this is hogwash. Sheol literally means, "the place of the dead, the grave." Hell is a Greek Concept, no religious Jew believes in it or ever did.
Which is exactly the terrain on which we currently find ourselves deployed.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the "Dead" (those under God's death sentence for treason - Rev. 12:7-9; Luke 9:55) bury their dead.

We call this planet Earth but it is in fact hell; a maximum security prison reform school for the criminally insane.
 

meximonk

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Which is exactly the terrain on which we currently find ourselves deployed.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the "Dead" (those under God's death sentence for treason - Rev. 12:7-9; Luke 9:55) bury their dead.

We call this planet Earth but it is in fact hell; a maximum security prison reform school for the criminally insane.
The Earth is not Hell, thought it certainly feels like it a lot of the time. Hell is a Greek concept. It is not scriptural. The closest Scriptural concepts are Sheol, (NOT Hell, literally, "the place of the dead, the grave"); Gehenna, Roman-Era Jerusalem's trash dump that was practically always on fire; and last but certainly not least, "The 2nd Death," which has yet to occur. For any of us. And it's called death for a reason. You'll be resurrected, judged, and if not saved by Messiah's Blood, thrown in the Lake of Fire that was designed for the rebellious angels and where rebellious humans who were recently resurrected to be judged and found unclean by the Blood will die again. The angels' torment may go on for ever and ever, but not yours.

This is what most Christians, particularly Protestants, hate. NO ONE IS SAVED YET. THE DEBT HAS BEEN PAYED, BUT IT HASN'T BEEN DELIVERED YET. The "credit" has yet to appear on any of our bills.
 

Thunderian

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A great study....


One danger with the use of picture language in certain passages is that it can create very strange conceptions when taken at face value only. I don’t mean liberalism here, just the issue that some things really are idioms and figures of speech.

Taken to a pathological degree, God is both a man and a mother hen! Jesus would be a loaf with a door in him. The problem for this conversation on flatness is one of that sort - there may have even been a “Hebrew understanding” of the structure of the universe based on a blending of their available knowledge with the actual words of God on the topic.

To this last point, I would submit that the understanding of “end times scenarios” within the Christian world has developed vastly through the centuries, and perhaps especially within our own lifetimes. The words of the Bible are unchanged but, I would argue, our comprehension of how these things might play out has grown exponentially.

On one topic, the “firmament”, recent cosmological research appears to harmonise light from distant stars with a young earth (without reference to its shape)

I offer a 4d hypercube by way of a mental warm up (which gives me the kind of feeling Ezekiel must have had with his vision of wheels!!)...

View attachment 44242

And a 2019 talk with cosmologist Russell Humphries to consider.

Creation is an incredibly wild topic. I can’t wait to fully understand it. Soon. :)

To this last point, I would submit that the understanding of “end times scenarios” within the Christian world has developed vastly through the centuries, and perhaps especially within our own lifetimes. The words of the Bible are unchanged but, I would argue, our comprehension of how these things might play out has grown exponentially.
I couldn’t agree more. Who could have dreamed that the peace deals in the Middle East would have come about the way they have? I keep joking that Trump is the last trump the Bible talks about, but now I’m wondering if it’s kind of a biblical Easter egg.

People sure don’t know what they’re missing. What a time this is.
 

A Freeman

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The Earth is not Hell, thought it certainly feels like it a lot of the time. Hell is a Greek concept. It is not scriptural.
We live in a world where people lie, cheat and steal from each other, where women are raped, children are molested (often times by so-called spiritual leaders), and where theft and war have been “legalized” in the form of taxes and war.

We live in a world that Lucifer/Satan/the devil/red-dragon/serpent and the spirit-Beings (souls/angels) who fought with him (Rev. 12:3-4) were banished to after the war (Rev. 12:7-9), and where Satan is the temporary ruler (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11); at least for a little while longer (Rev. 12:12). A world where virtually everyone is listening to and obeying Satan rather than obeying Father (God, "I AM") and His Perfect Law.

We live in a world where over 99.998% of the population have voluntarily chosen of their own free-will to be criminals, and to join Satan in The Fire on Judgment Day, which is why all but “the Elect” are referred to as the “dead” (spiritually) throughout Scripture (e.g. Ps. 115:17, Prov. 21:16, Matt. 8:22, Luke 20:34-38). How could the physically “dead” bury the dead? How obvious does it need to be that this is “the place of the (spiritually) dead, the grave” (sheol)? The underworld?

Genesis 1:6-8 (compare with Rev. 12:7-9)
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the “waters”, and let it divide the “waters” from the “waters”.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the “waters” which [were] UNDER the firmament from the “waters” which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.

The “waters” are defined in Scripture as the people.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The "waters" which thou sawest, where the "Whore" sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Isaiah 17:12-13
17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the "seas"; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

We are also told repeatedly throughout Scripture that this world is a PRISON.

See: Enoch 18:15, Psalms 69:33, Psalms 102:20, Psalms 142:7, Psalms 146:7, Eccl. 4:14, Isa. 14:17, Isa. 24:22, Isa. 42:7, Isa. 61:1, Lam. 3:31-34

Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise Thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for Thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Isaiah 42:7 TO OPEN BLIND EYES, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS FROM THIS PRISON [planet], [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

We're even literally told this IS hell.

Psalm 16:10-11
16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul IN HELL (planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.
16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of Life: in Thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at Thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.

The FACT that this place (planet Earth) IS hell is NOT a “Greek concept”; it is completely Scriptural. The flames that people have associated with hell are simply reserved for the Last Day, when the “Dead” will be judged and cast into The Fire, along with Satan.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death (the death of the spirit-Being/Soul; the “root” - Mal. 4:1)
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

The closest Scriptural concepts are Sheol, (NOT Hell, literally, "the place of the dead, the grave"); Gehenna, Roman-Era Jerusalem's trash dump that was practically always on fire; and last but certainly not least, "The 2nd Death," which has yet to occur. For any of us.
As above please. The Scripture is crystal clear about where we are and what we should be doing. Hopefully you are among the Living and will appreciate being corrected on your errant views.

And it's called death for a reason. You'll be resurrected, judged, and if not saved by Messiah's Blood, thrown in the Lake of Fire that was designed for the rebellious angels and where rebellious humans who were recently resurrected to be judged and found unclean by the Blood will die again. The angels' torment may go on for ever and ever, but not yours.
We have all, with the exception of Christ (John 3:13) and Enoch (who was "translated" to the Last Day - Heb. 11:5), been here in hell for thousands of Earth years. God does NOT keep good people in prison; Earth/hell is a training ground for the faithful; a prison reform school for the criminally insane (Gen. 1:26).

If you're having difficulty accepting that, please consider that we are all sinners, i.e. people who break The Law (1 John 3:4) that God gave us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free from all satanic influence. How could unrepentant habitual criminals possibly be considered to be "good people"? A sinner is someone whose actions are evil (bad).

Christ's Second Coming just before the Last Day (Judgment Day) is to gather the "Elect", i.e. to resurrect the "Living" from among the "Dead". The "graves" we have made for ourselves are of and by our own sinful actions. We need to purify our "selves", stop listening to Satan and all of his satanic nonsense (which he disguises in our minds as our "opinions", e.g. that this isn't hell) and learn to crucify the "self" DAILY as we've been repeatedly warned to do if we are to have any hope of surviving Judgment Day (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:26-27, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162).

This is what most Christians, particularly Protestants, hate. NO ONE IS SAVED YET. THE DEBT HAS BEEN PAYED, BUT IT HASN'T BEEN DELIVERED YET. The "credit" has yet to appear on any of our bills.
Agreed. Anyone who claims to already be "saved" is WRONG. We do not mark our own tests. Only the Lord marks our tests (John 5:22) and none of us will have any say in it on the Last Day. That's why we would all do well to learn some fresh and real humility and start again, this time DOING what the Lord says and not what any of us decide for ourselves (Deut. 12:8). The “Self” has to be “crucified DAILY” until it is DEAD and the only desire is to serve God and the common good, keeping the COMMANDments; Covenants; His Laws and Ways and NOT our own.

The debt has already been paid for our PAST sins, NOT to give us the freedom to sin with impunity, which would make the world (hell) even more evil than it already is.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

It's up to each and every one of us to empty our minds of all of the pre-programmed satanic nonsense, particularly ALL of the egotistically driven religious superstitions involved in ALL organized religion. Those who accept the truth of our spiritual reality and learn The Way home will avoid the "second death". Those who don't, won't.
 

A Freeman

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Further, on the topic of this thread...

Our heavenly Father and His Handiwork remain a constant source of amazement, at least to me.

In the English language, we have separate words for the instrument that draws a circle and the circle itself. We also have a separate word for movement in a circular-shaped pathway.

The instrument that draws a circle is called a compass. When drawing a circle, the compass is placed with one of its legs in the center of the circle to be drawn and the other on its circumference, with the radius of the circle being the distance between the two legse. The leg on the circumference of the circle is then rotated about the fixed, center-point of that circle, until it makes a complete (full) revolution.

A circuit is basically the same thing; only instead of using an instrument to draw a circle, it involves the movement of an individual or vehicle in the same manner. A full revolution from a starting point along the circumference of a circle, that is completed upon arriving back at the same point (the beginning and the end point being the same).

Both the drawing instrument and the circular pathway traveled denote rotation to form a circle. And a circle rotated about itself forms a sphere.

Unlike English, in the Hebrew language all three of these words are represented in a single word: chuwg (pronounced khüg). So in a single word, God told us that the Earth is not only spherical in shape, but that it is rotating about its axis. Amazing.

Isaiah 40:22 [It is] He that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Job 22:14 Thick clouds [are] a covering to Him, that He seeth not; and He walketh in the circuit (chuwg) of heaven.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when He set a compass (chuwg) upon the face of the depth:

A sphere is the ONLY object that appears as a circle from EVERY direction. God Himself is the same from every direction and completely the same today, tomorrow and forever.

So in the most efficient means possible, God told us EVERYTHING we need to know about both the shape of this planet and also His Omnipresence. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End.

Using the Hebrew word for “ball” (dur) to describe the Earth simply would not have worked because a ball is not necessarily spherical (footballs, rugby balls, etc.) and likewise does not necessarily denote rotation like a compass and a circuit do. A ball is a child's plaything, to be tossed around, and that is exactly how that word is used in Scripture.

Isaiah 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball (dur) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory [shall be] the shame of thy lord's house.

EVERYTHING around us is in motion. It is God Who is the fixed, unmovable, unchangeable center of the Universe, and it is only when we are calm, unemotional and at peace, that we truly find Him and the answers to all of life's questions.

Psalm 46:10-11
46:10 BE STILL, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
46:11 The "I AM" Lord of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. The rock.
 

meximonk

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A Freeman:

"We're even literally told this IS hell.

Psalm 16:10-11
16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul IN HELL (planet Earth); "


You added those words. (Planet Earth).

And yes, Hell, the entire idea of it in a modern context, is Greek. If you really want to get technical, it originated in BABYLON.
 

A Freeman

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A Freeman:

"We're even literally told this IS hell.

Psalm 16:10-11
16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul IN HELL (planet Earth); "


You added those words. (Planet Earth).

And yes, Hell, the entire idea of it in a modern context, is Greek. If you really want to get technical, it originated in BABYLON.
Are you really going to pretend David wasn't on planet Earth when he made the request not to leave his soul in hell, just so you can hold on to your errant, unscriptural beliefs? Didn't David's rule over Israel precede the Greek Empire by roughly 600 hundred years (and the Babylonian Empire by over 300 years)?
 

meximonk

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Are you really going to pretend David wasn't on planet Earth when he made the request not to leave his soul in hell, just so you can hold on to your errant, unscriptural beliefs? Didn't David's rule over Israel precede the Greek Empire by roughly 600 hundred years (and the Babylonian Empire by over 300 years)?
Again, read the Bible in Hebrew. Hell = "Sheol"; literally (' the grave ')
 

A Freeman

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Again, read the Bible in Hebrew. Hell = "Sheol"; literally (' the grave ')
99.998+% of this planet are the walking "dead" (Rev. 7:4-9, Rev. 14:1-4), i.e. they are already spiritually in the grave. What part of that is so difficult to understand please, in ANY language?

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol), [and] all the nations (located here on planet Earth) that forget God.

Psalm 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol, planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, Thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell (sheol, planet Earth), behold, Thou [art there].

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the "Dead" (those under God's death sentence for treason - Rev. 12:7-9; Luke 9:55) bury their dead.

Matthew 22:31-32
22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the "Dead", have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the "Dead", but of the Living.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the "dead" shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall Live.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the Life: he that believeth me, though he were "Dead" (under God's death sentence for treason - Rev. 12:7-9; Matt. 8:22; Luke 9:55), yet shall he Live (be pardoned):

Do you really believe that souls are kept in physical graves? What purpose could that possibly serve? Do you need someone to likewise show you why that errant view is totally unscriptural too?

The Hebrew word "sheol" literally means "a place of darkness where the dead go", which you have (wrongly) assumed refers only to a physical grave. Why do you suppose Christ is referred to as THE Light of this extremely dark world (King of kings' Bible - John 8:3, John 8:12 KJV) ? And how would you explain the (spiritually) "dead" burying the (physically) dead? Have you ever seen a physically dead human do anything? Do you not realize that Lucifer/Satan is the temporary "prince of this world", i.e. he is temporarily ruling it (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)?

There are plenty of people who pretend to understand Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic or Arabic, etc., to impress others, when they quite obviously do not really understand what they're reading, nor pay any attention to detail, and are spiritually blind/"dead".

If you are among the Living/Awakened, then you should be able to see the Love in someone taking the time to correct your errant views, while you still have time to do something to change your evil/sinful (selfish and egotistical) ways, as ALL of us need to do.

Peace be upon you.
 
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