The Descendants Of Adam And Eve

[God_Is_Formless]

I really wonder how loose i have been with details. To me, Garden of Eden is synonymous to Heaven just as not to approach the forbidden tree is synonymous to thou shalt not eat of it. Please don't go nitpicking my sentences to that extreme.

Exactly, there's nothing divine about Mary. She was god-fearing and pious. She gave birth to Jesus, who's just the same as she, creature.

Creatures beget creatures, which become a sort of copy or pair of themselves. Jesus didn't always exist. Plain logic. His existence began with his birth.

Just as The Almighty Created everything with the Big Bang, an image thereof keeps on being repeated all throughout time, God Staying Constant and Unchanging.

The first particle of the Big Bang became two particles and these in turn replicated and so on and so forth until galaxies were Formed by Him.

Likewise, men and women procreate. Their cells mingle and form one cell which then replicates itself by God's Permission until birth comes.

Exceptions apply only to Adam, Eve and Jesus (On them be Prayers and Peace). Adam and Eve were Created without any parents.

This shows that God Is Independent of procreation to Create the human being. It Suffices for Him to Command, and a thing simply becomes.

Jesus was Created without a mother to show still that God Creates However He Wills, in that case not needing any male intermediary.

Man, knowing this, in turn fears only His Lord and nothing else, not even having to go without food and/or water because he knows that God Can Quench hunger/thirst even if there's no food, God Being Independent of food to Grant satisfaction from hunger/thirst. Also, Only God Can Create such a feeling of extreme thirst and hunger. The lack of food on its own cannot generate any hunger even if it's perceived normality.

And God Certainly Knows Best.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Thanks for the elaboration. I'll let it sink in for a while. Regarding the demiurge, he would be to God what Brahma is to Brahman in Hinduism. I suppose the illusion you speak of would be the cosmos manifested through the Hiranyagarbha or Cosmic Egg. To further compare with Gnostic Christianity, the Cosmic Egg or Primordial Waters as referred to in alot of other traditions, represents a fullness of God / Brahman or God's original creation / emanations before it was torn in two by the demiurge / Brahma (signifying the beginning of the material universe).

The two halves of Hiranyagarbha, Dyaus and Prithvi - although I believe it's Svarga and Prithvi in the more philosophical schools - represent heaven and earth presided over by the devas who in the Rigveda were described as lesser deities who manipulate the elements and after the separation usurped the place of the asuras who were relegated to the status of demons. The demiurge thus refers to the entity responsible for the universe we currently live, trying to resemble that which came before him (ie. God's fullness) and reversing the hierarchy of divinities. For more information if you're interested see the chapter on the Demiurge here.

Thanks for explaining.
Basically Brahma is the creating aspect of Brahman, creating everything..not just the material world.
What you have to understand is, other than the devas and sometimes asuras, hindus also give metaphysical processes behind creation, the attribute of 'gods'. Although I do beleive that's because these processes manifest to us in animated form they're focused on.
It's a bit like someone meditating on the force of gravity before Newton and in his subjective experience, seeing an entity...the entity isn't real but just an animated interpretation (ok this is a different topic and kind of irrelevant but i wanted to just say that). I don't take these stories literally of course.

Brahma is the process of creation, creating everything, not just the physical universe.

Basically what you want to look into are sri aurobindo's material on the topics of higher and lower maya.
lower maya is actually our own ignorance in the world of multiplicity.

i'll go on a different detour for a moment
Take the story of iblees
(4) And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)

most muslims have thisa idea where you have Angels and jinns as 2 entirely seperate types of beings.
Actually these are 2 conditions..states.
Iblees is a seraph.
Seraphs are also malaika (angels) however they're also burning serpents.
It depends on what direction their fire is directed.
The fire, is desire....becoming aware of their own individuality in multiplicity, the desire to express and reach out is attained, hence Fire.
When that fire is directed towards the Absolute..there is no end to their growth. That's why iblees was able to rank amongst and higher than other angels. Those angels didn't posses the fire he did.
What Adam represented here, was 1) the material world and 2) something other than the Absolute.
So he became disillusioned and that fire changed quality..he became a burning serpent.

This is also part of our own nature. the states of Tanha (craving) and Chanda (wholesome desire).

It isn't that there is an actual demiurge..it is a side effect of multiplicity, for ignorance/darkness to come into effect.

what sri aurobindo described was the higher and lower maya. This lower maya is the one you want to look into as it's a better explanation of what you call the demiurge.
Read this
http://www.urantiagaia.org/eng/spiritual/aurobindo/life_divine1_aurobindo13.html












.

 

[Thunderian]

I really wonder how loose i have been with details. To me, Garden of Eden is synonymous to Heaven just as not to approach the forbidden tree is synonymous to thou shalt not eat of it. Please don't go nitpicking my sentences to that extreme.

Is it nitpicking to be exact about the word of God?

You say that in your mind, Heaven and the garden of Eden are synonymous, but how can that be when they are two different places?

And when you say that God said not only to not eat of the tree, but to not even approach it, you are adding to God's words.

God's exact words are meaningful, and when people start adding things to them that God didn't say, or using expressions like, "in my mind", to explain or discuss his word, that's where the trouble starts.

If we were discussing the Quran, would you be so blasé?

 

[God_Is_Formless]

I think it is rather clear that it has never been my intention to make any addition or change to God's Words. God Is my Witness.

It is rather your attempt to find fault with me when you never even read the original texts of your Bible, which has already been altered.

Actions are based on intentions and since it was never my intention to do so, please quit deflecting. God's Final Word Is The Qur'an.

Jesus was non-existent prior to his birth. He was born to a virgin. It was a miracle of The Almighty who needn't male intervention for it.

God Always Existed. Jesus is not God. Creatures beget while God Does Not. The message is clear and simple. One God. Your take.

 

[Thunderian]

Jesus was non-existent prior to his birth.

Why do you believe this, when it's not what Jesus said, or what the word of God confirms?

Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees that he existed before Abraham. Why would he say that if it wasn't true?

John the Apostle wrote, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

The Word is God's Command 'Be'. By His Command, everything starts existing immediately, even the events to come, since He Sees all.

Why do you believe this, when it's not what Jesus said, or what the word of God confirms?

I believe it because it's the most logical and simplest of things to believe. A newborn is non-existent prior to its birth. It applies to everybody.

 

[manama]

The Word is God's Command 'Be'. By His Command, everything starts existing immediately, even the events to come, since He Sees all.



I believe it because it's the most logical and simplest of things to believe. A newborn is non-existent prior to its birth. It applies to everybody.

soul did exist prior tho

 

[God_Is_Formless]

soul did exist prior tho

Agree. I take it you are referring to the world of souls where each and every soul made a promise to God Almighty?

Indeed, every human and jinn soul vowed obedience to The Formless God when He Would Send us to the life of this dimension to be tested.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Nevermind that the orator denies it later himself though, but he did correctly reference it, All Praises being due to the Lord of all the worlds.

 

[JoChris]

Thanks for explaining.
Basically Brahma is the creating aspect of Brahman, creating everything..not just the material world.
What you have to understand is, other than the devas and sometimes asuras, hindus also give metaphysical processes behind creation, the attribute of 'gods'. Although I do beleive that's because these processes manifest to us in animated form they're focused on.
It's a bit like someone meditating on the force of gravity before Newton and in his subjective experience, seeing an entity...the entity isn't real but just an animated interpretation (ok this is a different topic and kind of irrelevant but i wanted to just say that). I don't take these stories literally of course.

Brahma is the process of creation, creating everything, not just the physical universe.

Basically what you want to look into are sri aurobindo's material on the topics of higher and lower maya.
lower maya is actually our own ignorance in the world of multiplicity.

i'll go on a different detour for a moment
Take the story of iblees
(4) And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)

most muslims have thisa idea where you have Angels and jinns as 2 entirely seperate types of beings.
Actually these are 2 conditions..states.
Iblees is a seraph.
Seraphs are also malaika (angels) however they're also burning serpents.
It depends on what direction their fire is directed.
The fire, is desire....becoming aware of their own individuality in multiplicity, the desire to express and reach out is attained, hence Fire.
When that fire is directed towards the Absolute..there is no end to their growth. That's why iblees was able to rank amongst and higher than other angels. Those angels didn't posses the fire he did.
What Adam represented here, was 1) the material world and 2) something other than the Absolute.
So he became disillusioned and that fire changed quality..he became a burning serpent.

This is also part of our own nature. the states of Tanha (craving) and Chanda (wholesome desire).

It isn't that there is an actual demiurge..it is a side effect of multiplicity, for ignorance/darkness to come into effect.

what sri aurobindo described was the higher and lower maya. This lower maya is the one you want to look into as it's a better explanation of what you call the demiurge.
Read this
http://www.urantiagaia.org/eng/spiritual/aurobindo/life_divine1_aurobindo13.html












.

Urantia Book - are you aware that is a book obtained via channeling, or more old-fashioned term mediums?
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/what-does-god-say-about-channeling-and-mediums
https://probe.org/the-urantia-book/

Surely Islam is against such practices?!

 

[AspiringSoul]

Urantia Book - are you aware that is a book obtained via channeling, or more old-fashioned term mediums?
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/what-does-god-say-about-channeling-and-mediums
https://probe.org/the-urantia-book/

Surely Islam is against such practices?!

I didn't look into the website background/book you mentioned. I was looking for quotes by Sri Aurobindi on the topic of maya.
Islam is against such practices.

 

[JoChris]

I didn't look into the website background/book you mentioned. I was looking for quotes by Sri Aurobindi on the topic of maya.
Islam is against such practices.

One of the things I learned from a fair bit of study is the importance of WHO your sources are.
You know the saying "even a broken clock is right twice a day".

It doesn't matter how correct a writer/s is on one topic - if you know they are wrong on others it is a matter of social responsibility to not give bad sources to readers online OR at very least be upfront about their perspective so people understand where the writer/s are coming from overall.

 

[AspiringSoul]

One of the things I learned from a fair bit of study is the importance of WHO your sources are.
You know the saying "even a broken clock is right twice a day".

It doesn't matter how correct a writer/s is on one topic - if you know they are wrong on others it is a matter of social responsibility to not give bad sources to readers online OR at very least be upfront about their perspective so people understand where the writer/s are coming from overall.

Calm down. the link may contain reference to a channeled source, but it also links to the guru granth sahib and the ideas of sri aurobindo from his book The Life Divine, neither are channeled works.

 

[JoChris]

I was being a friendly critic.
If you want serious readers to take YOU seriously, you need to make sure you are not citing questionable sources, whether intellectually flawed or spiritually dangerous.

Surely you would not want fellow Muslims to believe written recordings of channeled spirits' doctrines i.e. demons?

 

[God_Is_Formless]

If you want serious readers to take YOU seriously,

That's the thing with Muslims. None of them really care about being taken seriously. All they care about is being under God's Protection.

They also care about sharing their positive experiences to others though so that everybody may benefit too.

And concerning falsehood, you might as well want to ignore it altogether because, whatever one may do, there's no doubt concerning

Qur'an Chapter 17 Verse 81

And say: 'The truth has come, and falsehood has vanished away; surely falsehood is ever certain to vanish.'

 

[JoChris]

That's the thing with Muslims. None of them really care about being taken seriously. All they care about is being under God's Protection.

They also care about sharing their positive experiences to others though so that everybody may benefit too.

And concerning falsehood, you might as well want to ignore it altogether because, whatever one may do, there's no doubt concerning

Qur'an Chapter 17 Verse 81

And say: 'The truth has come, and falsehood has vanished away; surely falsehood is ever certain to vanish.'

Muslims don't want to be taken seriously?!
No matter how much I disagree with them about Jesus and Christianity I know Muslims are human just like any other person on earth. That doesn't make any sense to me!
Who doesn't want to be respected and well-thought of by others?

 

[AspiringSoul]

I was being a friendly critic.
If you want serious readers to take YOU seriously, you need to make sure you are not citing questionable sources, whether intellectually flawed or spiritually dangerous.

Surely you would not want fellow Muslims to believe written recordings of channeled spirits' doctrines i.e. demons?

I don't really care tbh, if i was linking to the ideas of buddah i would be linking to non-islamic sources too, so what? in islam it's beneficial to gain knowledge. Here i'm talking to a gnostic who believes in the demiurge. I'm explaining to him that there is no demiurge, it is only the lower aspect of maya (illusion) we experience within the lower 'planes' ie attachment to temporal things, self-determination etc.

As for the subject of channeling. The reason I say it is haram is not the same reason another muslim might give. some muslims have been misled where they think 'communicating with jinns is forbidden'. There is no rule regarding that in islam.
For example when Jesus exorcised spirits, they communicated with him. didn't they speak some truth ie they knew who he was, believed in him.
You have to understand their nature.

The reason channelling itself is haram is because you have to consciously give up control of your body. Your body becomes a portal for them to influence the physical through you.
However the information coming from channelled works, it is no different to information from humans. Some are true, some are false, some lie a little, some lie a lot.
You classify it all as demonic, when it need not be. A lot of entities actually do have useful knowledge.

Actually ill go further and say, these type of communications correlate to the nature of our own mind, ie the monkey mind.
as long as the monkey mind is in control, any type of spirit communication will be just as bad, but it's not the spirit but your own level ie what you attract.

 

[JoChris]

AspiringSoul you might find this Christian article on why not to communicate with demons interesting because the writer mentions a few personal experiences. http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_demons_deception.html

Can you find any Islamic texts that mainstream Muslims would agree can be used to justify communicating with "spiritual entities"?

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Who doesn't want to be respected and well-thought of by others?

Anybody who's conscious that honor and dishonor come from God Alone; that enlightenment alone, in itself, is the greatest of all honors.

Also, when you know for a fact that God Loves you and that you fear losing that above everything else, you'll never compromise it.