The "celebrity mind control" aspect on this site doesn't add up completely

[LaserSharks]

First of all, dear admin: This is a critique about a core tenet of this site. Some people may not like this, but I think we should be allowed to dissect everything here; even the contents of this site. Otherwise we turn into dogmatists, like the "skeptics" for example.

The main premise about mind control on VC goes like this: Lots of major pop stars are the results of severe torture and trauma, and the symbolism of MKULTRA is embedded in their videos. Well, there certainly is symbolism in pop music videos, no doubt about it. You have to be completely ignorant to not notice all the pyramids and one-eyes all the time.

There's something going on, certainly. But is it related to MKULTRA and are they all MKed? That's an entirely different matter. I just don't see why you need to "control" these pop stars. What's the point?

There's a theme going on here that they are "degraded" (especially sexually) and probably wouldn't go along with it without the mind control. Well, sorry, but I could find instantly good looking boys and girls who would eagerly replace Justin and Britney, including stripping on the scene or even having sex with producers if they would get millions of dollars for that.

Keep in mind that the porn industry has no shortage finding above-average looking people even for the most extreme fetish scenes. Stuff involving feces even.

So, why do you need all the trauma for far less extreme things? Trust me: You have no problems finding people who would perform catchy illuminati-laden pop songs wearing revealing clothes. No problem at all.

All the MKULTRA also must involve tremendous intrastructure (clinics, doctors, facilities), I just don't see the benefit/cost ratio. Could secret societies use these techniques to train assassins? I can buy that. But waste all that for Britney and Justin?

Another problem I have with it is the source. The articles on mind control mostly either reference Kim Noble's paintings (which are problematic, because they lack some core elements of these music videos, like pyramids, butterflies, the eye etc.) or, and this seems to main source, quote just one book: Fritz Springmeier's "How The Illuminati Create An Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave". But how do we know that Fritz Springmeier is reliable? Maybe the symbols mean something completely different, and Fritz Springmeier is spreading disinformation? So much on this site is based on this book, but we know next to nothing about its author.

Who is Fritz Springmeier, and why should I trust him that he is telling the truth?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@LaserSharks

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So much of the truth movement seems to be so far from it!!

To me it appears that there is a particular formulation of books and content creators who become the new canon of what appears to be a distinctive truther faith.

 

[Aero]

There's something going on, certainly. But is it related to MKULTRA and are they all MKed? That's an entirely different matter. I just don't see why you need to "control" these pop stars. What's the point?

Well first of all is the money aspect. They have to keep celebrities on a leash so they don't get any big ideas. Like separating from their record companies, or going off script. Hollywood and the Music business is very tightly controlled. And I've talked about it a little bit before. How they are basically milking us like cows. But you are right that it doesn't take a specialized torture regiment to make that work.

The second angle we must confront, is the subconscious messaging that goes on. Pop stars and movie directors can hide specific codes into their songs or movies. And these subconscious messages can trigger people in any number of ways. Now it's important to remember most of these people probably don't even know they are spitting these codes out. It's all been planted in their brain with trauma.

Lastly all I can say is it doesn't take a lot of trauma to plant ideas in the minds of others. I think that we are all at a point where we are constantly affected by trauma. So again I think you are right. We need to stop pretending like celebs are sitting on the devils lap. Because all the same stuff applies to everyone. People need to look inside themselves for answers.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

That's an entirely different matter. I just don't see why you need to "control" these pop stars. What's the point?

Independent thinkers like to keep/control their own money.

Keep in mind that the porn industry has no shortage finding above-average looking people even for the most extreme fetish scenes. Stuff involving feces even.

There's no shortage of above-average looking people being sexually broken by abusers in childhood, in fact attractive people are more likely to suffer sexual abuse, as they have greater sexual appeal. I myself have been in a brief relationship with a girl who was drop-dead gorgeous, but had some extreme mental/sexual hang-ups after a childhood of abuse. Female porn-stars who participate in extreme fetish scenes may be beautiful on the outside, and some may even be stable individuals just doing a job, but many of them are sexually broken people, for whom abuse and affection are all twisted up.

So, why do you need all the trauma for far less extreme things? Trust me: You have no problems finding people who would perform catchy illuminati-laden pop songs wearing revealing clothes. No problem at all.

Yes, but again, they'd want to control their own money. A trend among pop-stars who seem 'off', or as VC would suggest are under 'Mind-Control', is that very often someone else has power of attorney over them, as in control of their wealth and decision-making, as well as the ability to sign them up for rehab or voluntary confinement in an institution without direct consent from the individual.

All the MKULTRA also must involve tremendous intrastructure (clinics, doctors, facilities), I just don't see the benefit/cost ratio. Could secret societies use these techniques to train assassins? I can buy that. But waste all that for Britney and Justin?

Keep in mind MKULTRA was a massive CIA operation with facilities in two nations, and none of the participants- doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.- were ever charged with anything nor did they have their credentials revoked. If the research of the MKULTRA program gleaned an effective 'mind-control' technique, those professionals involved could carry that technique into more private endeavors, potentially teaching it to others. While the research itself would and DID take tremendous infrastructure, the mind-control technique gleaned from it wouldn't necessarily. Keep in mind Britney's own net-worth is at something like $215million, and that barely scratches the surface of the money she's made for the industry and its facets over the years, likely in the billions. That's a lot of cheddar.

Another problem I have with it is the source. The articles on mind control mostly either reference Kim Noble's paintings (which are problematic, because they lack some core elements of these music videos, like pyramids, butterflies, the eye etc.) or, and this seems to main source, quote just one book: Fritz Springmeier's "How The Illuminati Create An Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave". But how do we know that Fritz Springmeier is reliable? Maybe the symbols mean something completely different, and Fritz Springmeier is spreading disinformation? So much on this site is based on this book, but we know next to nothing about its author.

Who is Fritz Springmeier, and why should I trust him that he is telling the truth?

This I agree with.
Fritz is just an author, one who was convicted and served a jail sentence for armed robbery, and who based his book on the assertions of one Cathy O`Brien, a disturbed woman who claimed her father, a sexual abuser who used her to produce child pornography, essentially sold her to Project MKULTRA and Project ARTICHOKE, where she claims she underwent trauma-based mind-control and became a sex-slave, used at the parties of elite politicians, country-western music stars, and in Satanic rituals.

Neither are a completely reliable source of information.

What we know, however, is this:
Project MKULTRA was a real CIA endeavor; a massive 'black book' project with many facets, the true extent of which we'll never quite know due to destroyed and redacted records.

It did, as surviving documentation has shown, involve as one of its many facets an effort to produce 'Manchurian Candidates', brainwashed individuals who weren't actively aware of their missions/objectives, but would be 'triggered' or 'activated' to perform that mission/objective, and act against their own self-interests. The military application of this is obvious: capture a foreign official/soldier/spy/whatever, condition him in this way, then send them back with no memory of their conditioning, to be activated at a later date.

The conditioning in the MKULTRA 'mind-control' program was trauma-based. They used torture, sleep deprivation, electro-shock, forced-feedings, shame and even sexual abuse. Underprivileged children were also subjected to this program, typically without any consent.

The MKULTRA 'mind control' program was deemed a failure, as though they could indeed 'program' a person to act against their own self-interests, the trauma left the subjects emotional wrecks and less than capable of functioning normally, making the 'sleeper agent' aspect a complete no-go.



Considering all that, I find the idea of those who participated in these experiments continuing their work in the private sphere after the program was shut down entirely plausible. While the 'mind-control' program was perhaps useless for creating military sleeper-agents, what are some careers where someone brainwashed to act against their own self-interest would be highly lucrative, even with the consequences of leaving the subjects emotionally disturbed? Sex-trade and Entertainment.

While the sex-trade and human trafficking is an obvious sphere for such things, the idea of mind-controlled sex-slaves and p***phile rings in the entertainment industry has seemed and has been treated as a nonsensical fantasy for years, but recently the nonsensical fantasy has been developing into something of a sick reality, and even the Satanic Ritual element, the most outlandish of all, was confirmed in the Jimmy Saville case.

I by no means believe everything VC and this Fritz guy says about the Illuminati and such, and I by no means am certain Britney or any other celebrity is a victim, but there's enough evidence for trauma-based mind-control to accept it as a likely reality.

 

[LaserSharks]

There's no shortage of above-average looking people being sexually broken by abusers in childhood, in fact attractive people are more likely to suffer sexual abuse, as they have greater sexual appeal.

I have trouble accepting that all paraphilia must be the result of prior abuse. But that's not the point: The point was that you have already a large pool of people for all kinds of things, without the need to constantly run MKULTRA on them.

Independent thinkers like to keep/control their own money.

Yes, but again, they'd want to control their own money. A trend among pop-stars who seem 'off', or as VC would suggest are under 'Mind-Control', is that very often someone else has power of attorney over them, as in control of their wealth and decision-making, as well as the ability to sign them up for rehab or voluntary confinement in an institution without direct consent from the individual.

Yeah, and that's my biggest problem: Why the effort? Look, I have no problem believing that the elite are into all kinds of shady stuff, but the pop MKULTRA thing seems to be highly inefficient. I mean, the MKULTRA as alluded to on this site must involve tons of logistics and infrastructure.

Rather than to torture and brainwaish brainwash Britney for years to keep her "enslaved", wouldn't it be easier to just replace them every three years or so with willing participants from American Idol? The target audience doesn't care, and most singing is done with the computer anyway.

Why put so much effort into them? I could maybe see it for someone like Michael Jackson, but 2000s cheapskates like Kesha, Britney, Biebler are so dime a dozen, they aren't worth the torture-tax to keep them on the leash for years.

 

[Helioform]

Fritz Springmeier was framed I believe and this is why he was jailed. There was no evidence for the armed robbery, merely some other robber who claimed that he was with him.

http://wariscrime.com/new/how-fritz-springmeier-was-framed/

I believe that he had become way too dangerous in the way he was sharing his knowledge. So, I think that this fact alone makes his information all the more believable. He may not be completely trustworthy in the sense that he often mixes what he presents with some of his Christian beliefs, which are not always grounded in fact but merely faith. He also had multiple identities(proof being many passports with different names) at one time, but that may have been only to protect himself.

Overall the mind control is now mostly imprinted with the use of subliminals and i don't really think that all those celebrities have been under trauma-based techniques.
It is very easy to put these in movies as well as in music. Basically these people have become Gods to the masses so using them to spread their web of control makes perfect sense.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

I have trouble accepting that all paraphelia must be the result of prior abuse.

I didn't say it 'must' be, but it very often is.

I mean, the MKULTRA as alluded to on this site must involve tons of logistics and infrastructure.

Can you explain why? Beyond a private place, someone knowledgeable in the technique, and some tools of the trade, what 'tons of logistics and infrastructure' would be necessary?

Rather than to torture and brainwaish brainwash Britney for years to keep her "enslaved", wouldn't it be easier to just replace them every three years or so with willing participants from American Idol? The target audience doesn't care, and most singing is done with the computer anyway.

How many winners of American Idol would sign power of attorney over to someone else?

Why put so much effort into them?

Vast wealth you completely control and the sadistic pleasure of having the idol of millions under your thumb are powerful lures.

but 2000s cheapskates like Kesha, Britney, Biebler are so dime a dozen, they aren't worth the torture-tax to keep them on the leash for years.

I don't necessarily believe any of these people are 'mind-control slaves', albeit Britney is one of the more convincing examples. I'm just saying the possibility isn't one to be dismissed off-hand.

 

[LaserSharks]

Can you explain why? Beyond a private place, someone knowledgeable in the technique, and some tools of the trade, what 'tons of logistics and infrastructure' would be necessary?

The articles often mention UCLA Medical Center here (where the celebs probably get their "treatment") among other rehab sites. Having an MKULTRA site at UCLA is a huge effort I would think. Keeping it secret from other personell, having the specialists stationed there in case Kanye arrives...

How many winners of American Idol would sign power of attorney over to someone else?

Depends on the money. I mean, doesn't matter the circumstances, but as I said, you can find trim looking people eating feces on camera for far less after all (2 girls 1 cup etc)

Getting a a twenty something signing a shady contract in return for millions of dollars doesn't seem like a hard task in comparison.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Having an MKULTRA site at UCLA is a huge effort I would think. Keeping it secret from other personell, having the specialists stationed there in case Kanye arrives...

Why? They'd have all the tools on hand, electro-shock is still a common practice to this day, and privacy and confidentiality is a fairly fundamental aspect of any medical procedure. The staff in one ward of a medical facility typically has very little association with the staff of another ward, and asking "Hey, what procedure did (insert celebrity here) undergo?" is a strict violation of doctor-patient confidentiality.

Depends on the money. I mean, doesn't matter the circumstances, but as I said, you can find trim looking people eating feces on camera for far less after all (2 girls 1 cup etc)

Getting a a twenty something signing a shady contract in return for millions of dollars doesn't seem like a hard task in comparison.

If you sign over power of attorney to someone, you get fuck all. THEY get millions of dollars, and might decide to give you some if they're feeling generous. Signing over Power of Attorney isn't something you can ask for in even the shadiest of contracts.

 

[LaserSharks]

Why? They'd have all the tools on hand, electro-shock is still a common practice to this day, and privacy and confidentiality is a fairly fundamental aspect of any medical procedure. The staff in one ward of a medical facility typically has very little association with the staff of another ward, and asking "Hey, what procedure did (insert celebrity here) undergo?" is a strict violation of doctor-patient confidentiality.

But isn't this basically a routine treatment? According to the "mythology", the celebs need to be reprocessed at certain intervalls to keep the programming. They also sometimes need emergency-reprogramming (Kanye). So you need a team stationed at that hospital just for that. And that's tricky, because you have another vector of potential breach (I think anyone can see that it's a bit of a challenge to keep an unit of doctors and nurses, who are specalized at torturing people, working in a hospital and keep their loyalty and silence)

Also, keep in mind, it's not California (or US) only. MKULTRA themed videos are produced around the world (symbolic pics of the month). So you need similar installations around the globe. And again, you need keep the employees there under control. Probably by intimidation, so you also need an unit who keeps an eye on the families of these people and so on.

That's what I mean with vast infrastructure.

If you sign over power of attorney to someone, you get fuck all. THEY get millions of dollars, and might decide to give you some if they're feeling generous. Signing over Power of Attorney isn't something you can ask for in even the shadiest of contracts.

I don't think money is a problem for these kinds of people.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

So you need a team stationed at that hospital just for that.

Why? Many, many medical professionals work 'On call'.

. So you need similar installations around the globe.

You don't necessarily need installations or medical facilities at all. Many people build elaborate dungeons in their own homes for fetish-play. What's the difference?

I don't think money is a problem for these kinds of people.

Then why did you suggest the expense would be too high?


Again, let me make it clear, I'm not saying I believe with any confidence that Kanye, Britney, or any of them are mind-controlled slaves, nor that I believe with any confidence that UCLA is some brain-washing facility. I'm basically just playing devil's advocate here regarding the possibility/plausibility of VC's assertions.

I'm also not at all a fan of the 'Vast criminal conspiracies are logistically impossible!' line, as such thinking is the most common argument against 9/11 conspiracy theories, which I do absolutely believe to often hold a great deal more truth than the official narrative.

 

[rainerann]

I think you bring up an interesting point about the reference to butterflies. Personally, that does stand out to me because, in my experience reading victim testimonies, actual butterflies are not mentioned often as a symbol. So I don't know where that came from, but I don't even think that came from Fritz entirely because if I remember correctly, his mention to Monarchs is in reference to the MONARCH classified project.

In addition to this, there several victim testimonies that discuss the subject including Candy Jones, Brice Taylor, Kathleen Sullivan, Cathy O'Brien, and the author of "A Nation Betrayed." In some cases, the awareness of other victim stories has created conflicting accounts whereas Brice Taylor is specifically mentioned by Kathleen Sullivan and not in the best way. Cathy O'Brien is mentioned by Brice Taylor and Brice Taylor is mentioned by Cathy O'Brien in a way that creates conflict in their stories as they accuse the other one of not being completely honest about their experience. Personally, I think this is due to the isolation they experienced in some respect and the difficulty this creates in forming a community.

Cisco Wheeler is the primary source of information according to Fritz Springmeier who claims to have been in the Illuminati. All of these things could be true; however, this is still not going to create the cookie cutter experience that people associate with this. People don't have to walk, talk, or think like any one of these people in order to have had a similar experience and this is what often happens. People think that the experiences of other people mirror these people or the information that is available in a way that doesn't seem to allow for a lot of deviation. It is fairly interesting to see the shock factor it creates.

Like for example, UCLA is mentioned and it seems like it would be a big undertaking to "program" someone there, but more than likely, this isn't where programming takes place. It could very simply be that when a person gets placed there, enough people are complicit in this environment to prevent people from asking questions. All you need to do to prevent someone from realizing that this person has experienced abuse is make sure that you don't have your average nurse do something like a suicide/abuse screening, and the narrative remains intact about whatever someone wants you to believe. This could require no more than rewarding someone within this institution with some kind of reward or privilege and you can really see how easy this is to do when you realize that many people can't be trusted because of the ways they are capable of betraying you. I don't know if this is what truly causes people to consider things like this, to begin with. It could be as simple as the realization that most people have that people are not capable of deep trust on a consistent basis.

In most of the victim testimonies, abuse generally takes place somewhere private. In addition to this, most of the more developed stories that exist are in regard to people who were generally from the baby boomer generation. It is hard to picture the world the way it was at this time, but it is important to realize that there was a lot less surveillance. There weren't cell phones posting videos to live leaks. People didn't have pocket cameras. Records were kept in paper charts that could be easily destroyed without worrying about a backup copy existing somewhere. What we need in many ways, is to start hearing some new testimonies from the next generation after this to start seeing how the process evolved. A lot of what can be taken from the information available is becoming obsolete in many ways as technology advances and we can only speculate the ways these programs have been modified to accommodate these changes.

In conclusion, I agree that many things are cited from a singular source, and there is definitely a viral image associated with it that creates a lot more speculation than research of the subject, in my opinion.

 

[LaserSharks]

Then why did you suggest the expense would be too high?

Because I still think just paying a few millions to some twentysomething to produce illuminati music videos is far simpler running repeated MK ULTRA on them.

I also want to add that I don't know, too. I just feel that there's not much discussion about this here, despite it being the focus of the site.

Anyone heard of Svali? According to her writings, the occult hierarchy themselves are always under dissociation (they are all mind controlled themselves). What's your take on this? Especially the infrastructure to keep that going?

 

[rainerann]

I would also like the add that the language does create a sort of fanaticism at times. However, this is because most people don't know how to translate what the victim is saying rather than this being something intentional on the part of the victim trying to find words to describe their experience.

Like the word "program" used in the context of MK Ultra. We say someone went somewhere and was programmed and this takes on a sort of science fiction life of its own. However, programmed generally refers to someone talking to the victim in a dissociated state with the awareness that they are dissociated. So, for example, the average person with a dissociative identity disorder. Let's say they have 6 primary alter states and each state has their own identity and their own name.

Let's say two of these altered states are the polar opposite of the other one. The first one is named Emily. She likes the color red. She hates olives. She has never been able to go to the movie theatre, etc. Let's say the second state is named Julie and she like the color purple, and her favorite movie is Jurassic Park or whatever. They have names. They have their own preferences. They have their own experiences that are not shared and this is how dissociative identity disorder presents itself frequently. There is a lot more information and testimonies about experiences like this than there are testimonies like Brice Taylor at the present time.

So let's say that someone finds out that Julie likes to go the movies, and they go to the movies and learn that her name is Julie. They tell her that their name is Fred, and they go to the movies together every Thursday. Julie thinks this guy is named Fred.

Let's say Fred knows that this person has an altered state named Emily who doesn't go to the movies. So he runs into her when she is getting coffee and introduces himself as Evan this time, and says that he doesn't really like to go to movies either. So what happens is that because Fred knows that the individual's experience is separated with dissociated states and knows these states do not interact, they can use this to engage in separate relationships with them. This creates the opportunity to confuse the victims obviously, but in the reality of a more extreme case, they would be able to manipulate the individual because the victim is unable to protect themselves with a linear sort of memory process.

And this is essentially what the term "programming" means. An individual is interacting with this victim with an awareness of their condition in order to manipulate them, which is very possible when you consider the research on dissociative identity disorder.

 

[LaserSharks]

Cathy O'Brien is mentioned by Brice Taylor and Brice Taylor is mentioned by Cathy O'Brien in a way that creates conflict in their stories as they accuse the other one of not being completely honest about their experience.

Weren't they accusing each other of plagiarism?

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Because I still think just paying a few millions to some twentysomething to produce illuminati music videos is far simpler running repeated MK ULTRA on them.

I'm quite certain not all the people producing music/videos/movies/shows with Illuminati conspiracy content are being influenced by anyone besides the rest of the people out there producing music/videos/movies/shows with Illuminati conspiracy content. I think in a lot of cases it's just people following a trend, and/or attempting to generate more interest in their product then it would otherwise garner.

I also want to add that I don't know, too. I just feel that there's not much discussion about this here, despite it being the focus of the site.

You're right about that, and there's a great deal of illuminati conspiracy content in media out there VC's never covered. Would perhaps be a good idea to make a thread devoted to pointing it all out/discussing it.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Though we certainly have the K-Pop industry covered, that's for sure...! I feel like the people in this forum not discussing K-pop is a comparatively tiny community.

 

[LaserSharks]

I'm also not at all a fan of the 'Vast criminal conspiracies are logistically impossible!' line, as such thinking is the most common argument against 9/11 conspiracy theories, which I do absolutely believe to often hold a great deal more truth than the official narrative.

Don't agree on 9/11. I think 9/11 conspiracy theories were a huge waste of time (especially now, where it reached levels like "holographic planes").

Here's why: I fully believe in the possibility that it wasn't Al-Quaeda. BUT, why coming up with ultra-complicated schemes instead of brainwashing some "terrorists" and let them indeed fly the planes into the buildings? Now that's what I would use MKULTRA for! (Sirhan Sirhan anyone?)

Far simpler than planting bombs in the buildings and all that jazz.

 

[LaserSharks]

You're right about that, and there's a great deal of illuminati conspiracy content in media out there VC's never covered. Would perhaps be a good idea to make a thread devoted to pointing it all out/discussing it.

Nowhere Man.

I am surprised that TV show isn't brought up in the scene a lot more (including VC) Anyone here who watched it?

 

[LaserSharks]

You don't necessarily need installations or medical facilities at all. Many people build elaborate dungeons in their own homes for fetish-play. What's the difference?

Doesn't the procedure involve drugs and electro shocks? VC calls it one of the cruelest inventions known to man after all.

I think the stars would be dying like flies (far more than now anyway) if this stuff would be done in some basement without medical supervision.