The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Wrath” Rapture

Red Sky at Morning

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The Biblical Case for a “Pre-Wrath” Rapture

Rupertus Meldenius famously said, “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

You don’t have to have spent too long on discussion forums to notice that this advice is rarely applied in “end times” discussions.
Different Christians have different views on the timing of the Rapture of the Church (and have the liberty to take views on “nonessentials”.

This thread is an invitation to make a Biblical case FOR a “Pre-Wrath” Rapture. What is not required are reasons why the other views are stupid, people who believe in them heretics etc etc!!

Anyone wishing to support this interpretation is welcome to join in, and numerous perspectives are welcome, as many witnesses from different standpoints help corroborate a case.

P.s. Don’t forget - “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
 

TokiEl

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God's wrath begins at the breaking of the sixth seal.

And at that time God's elect 144 000 chosen christians from the tribes of israel will be sealed.


2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 

Lisa

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It seems to me that before Jesus comes again that the apostasy/falling away from the faith comes first then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Who takes his seat in the temple of God acting as if he is God.

2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.



We know that the abomination of desolation..where the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God acting as God comes in the middle of a treaty..that’s broken in the middle of the treaty. So that means that the Jews..who aren’t believers are going to build a new temple and according to the Temple Institute...https://templeinstitute.org/ they have everything they need for that new temple except for a spotless red heifer. And the also want to build it on the Temple Mount where they would need a treaty with the Waqf/muslims to have it built.

Daniel‬ ‭9:24-27‬
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.‭

Daniel‬ ‭11:20-22, 28, 31-36‬ ‭
Then in his place one will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom; yet within a few days he will be shattered, though not in anger nor in battle. In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.

Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.

Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days. Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy. Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time. “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.




We also know that the antichrist will make war with the saints and be able to overcome them and kill them. However, its is God’s will that they go out to all the nations as a testimony to them..or as one man put it as a testimony against them so they know why God is going to do what He is going to do. We preach the word and then the end will come.

Revelation‬ ‭13:7‬ ‭
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


Matthew‬ ‭24:9-11, 13-14‬ ‭
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


Mark‬ ‭13:9-13‬ ‭
But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.



Here in Revelation..we see the whole of the end times in the opening of the seals. All the things that come before the martyrdom of the saints who were left as a testimony to the world is revealed. The lengths people will go to to shut us up..because of course the wages of sin is death..but notice how after that Jesus comes. And look also that the day of theirwrath has come!

Revelation‬ ‭6:1-17‬ ‭​
Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.” And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”

When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


But before all that could happen..God seals His chosen people and then the saints are in heaven...
Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3, 9‬ ‭
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.


Yes..God has not destined us for wrath and cut those days short before the wrath or no one would be saved...

1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Matthew‬ ‭24:22-24‬ ‭
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is, ’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
 
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Lisa

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I always liked these talks from Charles Cooper...Faith is the only option..which I think is the only Biblical response.


 

cjkkw

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I always liked these talks from Charles Cooper...Faith is the only option..which I think is the only Biblical response.


@Lisa, describe the afterlife. if u know.
 

Atarah

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for starters:


“And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low, and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

If the antichrist exalts himself in the temple at the midpoint ... how can The L-RD ALONE be exalted in that day?

And......

““And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:25-28‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 

Lisa

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If the antichrist exalts himself in the temple at the midpoint ... how can The L-RD ALONE be exalted in that day?
That’s the abomination of desolation that was talked about in Daniel.. that’s not the day that the Lord is exulted. That won’t happen for another 3.5 years.




And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:25-28‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Who is God talking to that says straighten up and raise your heads?
And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:25-28‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Whose deliverance do you think God is talking about here?
 

Atarah

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That’s the abomination of desolation that was talked about in Daniel.. that’s not the day that the Lord is exulted. That won’t happen for another 3.5 years.





Who is God talking to that says straighten up and raise your heads?

Whose deliverance do you think God is talking about here?
the pretribulationist believes G-D’s wrath (Day of the L-RD) starts at the opening of the first seal and within the opening of the 7 seals, the antichrist exalts himself. Isaiah 2:17 contradicts the Pretribulation view.

Luke 21 parallels the Olivet Discourse. Cosmic Disturbances (6th seal) Is mentioned in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. The apostles asked Yeshua in Matthew 24. “ what is the sign (<== singular) of Your coming and the end of the age (this world - olam Hazeh). Yeshua goes thru the things to look for but tells them “....but end is not yet” But right after He describes the cosmic disturbances He says:
““...... Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:30‬ ‭

Luke 21:28 is referring to the believers in Yeshua... and a little further in verse 36 He gives a command “ ....to pray that you are counted as worthy to escape these things“.

Actually, The the Day of the L-RD does not start 3.5 years after the mid point. Joel 2:31 gives a sign to look for to happen before the start of the DOTL. Remember, The L-RD cuts the great tribulation( which starts at the midpoint) short. You still have the 7 trumpets which is inside the 70th week of Daniel......then Daniel has the extra 30 + 45 days => the bowls and restoration ( small scroll) before the start of the millennial kingdom.

Paul connects two events the ’ Second Coming and us being gathered together” by telling the Thessalonians “That day will not come” until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed “. II Thess 2:1-4
 

Thunderian

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Paul connects two events the ’ Second Coming and us being gathered together” by telling the Thessalonians “That day will not come” until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed “. II Thess 2:1-4
Paul doesn’t say Second Coming. In fact, he doesn’t connect our gathering to him with the Second Coming anywhere in the Bible. He speaks in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 only of Christ’s coming, as in the saying, “Maranatha!”
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Atarah - could you explain how the passage you quoted contradicts a pre-trib view?

Isaiah 2:17

17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
 

Lisa

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the pretribulationist believes G-D’s wrath (Day of the L-RD) starts at the opening of the first seal and within the opening of the 7 seals, the antichrist exalts himself. Isaiah 2:17 contradicts the Pretribulation view.

Luke 21 parallels the Olivet Discourse. Cosmic Disturbances (6th seal) Is mentioned in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. The apostles asked Yeshua in Matthew 24. “ what is the sign (<== singular) of Your coming and the end of the age (this world - olam Hazeh). Yeshua goes thru the things to look for but tells them “....but end is not yet” But right after He describes the cosmic disturbances He says:
““...... Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:30‬ ‭

Luke 21:28 is referring to the believers in Yeshua... and a little further in verse 36 He gives a command “ ....to pray that you are counted as worthy to escape these things“.

Actually, The the Day of the L-RD does not start 3.5 years after the mid point. Joel 2:31 gives a sign to look for to happen before the start of the DOTL. Remember, The L-RD cuts the great tribulation( which starts at the midpoint) short. You still have the 7 trumpets which is inside the 70th week of Daniel......then Daniel has the extra 30 + 45 days => the bowls and restoration ( small scroll) before the start of the millennial kingdom.

Paul connects two events the ’ Second Coming and us being gathered together” by telling the Thessalonians “That day will not come” until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed “. II Thess 2:1-4
I thought the pretribbers think it could be any day?

I think you’ve quoted the wrong verse in Isaiah.

I’m not sure..are you arguing pre wrath? Because I agree..we at least have until the Antichrist is revealed which is a lot later than pre trib.
 

Thunderian

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we at least have until the Antichrist is revealed which is a lot later than pre trib.
This is also wrong.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 doesn’t say that the day of the Rapture of the church won’t come unless the antichrist is revealed first. If you read the verse in context with the verses preceding it, and with itself, you see Paul is saying that the day of the Lord will not come until there is a falling away, which is happening now, and once the day of the Lord has begun, then the man of sin will be revealed.

The Day of the Lord starts at the Rapture of the Church. Verse 7 of the same passage tells us that the antichrist can’t do his thing until the one who is restraining him is taken out of the way. If the Church isn’t raptured until after the antichrist is revealed, who or what is being removed before his revealing? You say it’s not the Church, so who do you think it is? It can’t be the Holy Spirit, either, because as long as there are believers on earth, the Holy Spirit will be present.

So, @Lisa, what or who is presently restraining the antichrist, and will be taken out of the way?
 

Lisa

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This is also wrong.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 doesn’t say that the day of the Rapture of the church won’t come unless the antichrist is revealed first. If you read the verse in context with the verses preceding it, and with itself, you see Paul is saying that the day of the Lord will not come until there is a falling away, which is happening now, and once the day of the Lord has begun, then the man of sin will be revealed.

The Day of the Lord starts at the Rapture of the Church. Verse 7 of the same passage tells us that the antichrist can’t do his thing until the one who is restraining him is taken out of the way. If the Church isn’t raptured until after the antichrist is revealed, who or what is being removed before his revealing? You say it’s not the Church, so who do you think it is? It can’t be the Holy Spirit, either, because as long as there are believers on earth, the Holy Spirit will be present.

So, @Lisa, what or who is presently restraining the antichrist, and will be taken out of the way?
2 Thessalonians 2:2
That you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭
Who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

I read it as the apostasy comes first and the anti revealed then the day of the Lord.

I hardly think we are the restrainer..

‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
 

Lisa

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Who is, based on how you read the Bible?
Daniel‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Why do you think we are the restrainer?
 

Thunderian

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Daniel‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Why do you think we are the restrainer?
I don't remember saying we are the restrainer. I'm not sure why you think that.

Michael is called "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people". (As usual, I am using the KJV.) "Thy people" means Daniel's people, so Michael's job, according to the Bible, is to protect Israel.

You say, however, that his job is to hold back the antichrist until God takes him out of the way. OK, but notice that Daniel 12 starts with the words, "And at that time shall Michael stand up". What time? The time of trouble, according to the same verse, such as there never was. The time of trouble that the antichrist causes. The same antichrist that you say can't be revealed until Michael is taken out of the way. So how is Michael able to stand up for Israel against the antichrist, if he is removed so the antichrist can be revealed?
 

Lisa

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I don't remember saying we are the restrainer. I'm not sure why you think that.

Michael is called "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people". (As usual, I am using the KJV.) "Thy people" means Daniel's people, so Michael's job, according to the Bible, is to protect Israel.

You say, however, that his job is to hold back the antichrist until God takes him out of the way. OK, but notice that Daniel 12 starts with the words, "And at that time shall Michael stand up". What time? The time of trouble, according to the same verse, such as there never was. The time of trouble that the antichrist causes. The same antichrist that you say can't be revealed until Michael is taken out of the way. So how is Michael able to stand up for Israel against the antichrist, if he is removed so the antichrist can be revealed?
This is what confused me..it seems to me that you were saying we were the ones that were the restrainer.
If the Church isn’t raptured until after the antichrist is revealed, who or what is being removed before his revealing? You say it’s not the Church, so who do you think it is?
The antichrist doesn’t come into the temple until the midpoint so Michael is still protecting Israel until then..the treaty. Michael stands up...the restraint is gone...they antichrist goes into the temple. After the antichrist reveals himself Jesus tells the Jews to flee..don’t even go inside to get anything.
 
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