Infinityloop
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- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Not at all a Beatles fan sorry.
Not at all a Beatles fan sorry.
If you reread my response you'll find I wasn't pointing out your hypocrisy (as it does not apply here) but your thinly veiled contempt and plea to victimhood.Show me a single instance where I've countered a threat or a truthclaim with the same back to them? I always question the validity of those truthclaims and threats, and sometimes critique them and point out errors in them.
If I am proselytizing, please show me where and how. That would be quite funny, as I do often mentioned how much I am opposed to it.
I'd certainly not go about it by demonizing an entire group of people and spawning countless hostile discussions that ultimately lead nowhere. You've made it clear how you feel about Christians and Christianity enough times for everyone to get the point.Try imagining a world for a moment where everyone holds different strongly-held beliefs both with and against each other, what would you do?
would you counter that with more beliefs or start asking questions?
Or a simple search of your name and the word "Christian". Again, it's a pot-kettle situation with you.Aggression aye? it'll take a turtle to walk a highway till you find any ounce of that. However, for the Christians here the same cannot be said.
There have been some very good replies in several threads that you shut down immediately. You judge them by your metrics which is fine but then you have no right to claim the things you do about lack of responses when the truth is you don't like the ones you get.What kinds of points do you think I'm rejecting? I do not reject dignified responses to the questions I ask, afterall my goal is truth not illusion. I LOVE good responses that show care about the subject and show the same concerns about understanding the merits and pitfalls of different worldviews.
I already have. And no thanks, I've learned not to play these games with you. The arrogance of turning an invitation to debate or discuss into a test of seeing whether my reply is "worthy" enough for your intellect. I'd rather live out my faith and manifest how it's changed me in real life than waste energy with pointless forum brawls which is why I don't really participate in them anymore. But I don't have any ill will toward you. Enjoy the rest of your day.Lets try an experiment Robin, since you've started participating in this thread. You offer me a "point" about my OP? then we will discuss if what you put forth is a deserving response.
Remember that agreement is not what is ever being asked on any of these threads, it's reasoning and understanding the process of acquiring beliefs.
700 BC lol. Some people would rather live in fantasy land than deal with reality.The Book of Isaiah was written nearly 700 years BC. His “seal” appears to have been recently found btw:-
Lets cut through the senseless metacommentary and examine this thread for starters.I already have. And no thanks, I've learned not to play these games with you. The arrogance of turning an invitation to debate or discuss into a test of seeing whether my reply is "worthy" enough for your intellect. I'd rather live out my faith and manifest how it's changed me in real life than waste energy with pointless forum brawls which is why I don't really participate in them anymore. But I don't have any ill will toward you. Enjoy the rest of your day.
To be perfectly honest, I find this whole exercise senseless which is why I am respectfully exiting this thread. I have said everything I needed to say to you. Feel free to turn me into another example of Christians "evading the question" if you wish. For my part though, I am done.Lets cut through the senseless metacommentary and examine this thread for starters.
As very clear by the title of this thread, we are discussing "The Bible versus other religious texts".
In my OP I asked for (in an allegorical manner, because we are obviously not in a bookstore) Christians to give their views and reasons for such views of why they believe in the Bible in comparison to the texts of other religions.
Please tell me what is unreasonable about this and please tell me one instance where a Christian here started discussing either angle of the question? (The Bible's authority vs their experience and views on other religious texts)
As for proselytizing, here it is straight away in the quotes of this post on page one: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-233642
Heck I even went to clarify explicitly what I was asking in this post: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-233653 yet look how openly the Christians here have evaded this and instead turned it into ad hominem against me.
Would you agree that there is nothing unreasonable about what I have asked in this thread? (and from those linked threads)To be perfectly honest, I find this whole exercise senseless which is why I am respectfully exiting this thread. I have said everything I needed to say to you. Feel free to turn me into another example of Christians "evading the question" if you wish. For my part though, I am done.
But... and these are your words--@elsbet
I would advice you to read the reply to that post as well and also try to answer the thread, it was a good question related back to the question of divine revelation itself and how that can possibly be reconciled with the believe in the Bible. That discussion is not for this thread.
The truth is that there is no way to reconcile them...
I would say that our Understanding or Reason in it's higher aspect, which is to say not mental speculation but logical insight founded on the stillness of mind brought about by spiritual practices such as meditation, is the part of us which is truly "made in the image of God". @Infinityloop is quite right in saying that the claims Christianity makes don't stand up to logical and philosophical analysis, especially the Protestant form of it. For one you are actually against engaging in the contemplative practices necessary to arrive at comprehension, including comprehension about the validity of dogmas.You have rejected core Christian doctrines because they did not make sense to your human understanding.
"The truth is that there is no way to reconcile them. If you believe in God and accept the Prophets, then you have to categorically deny the Bible, very literally." (the full quote which you left out which I explore below)But... and these are your words--
You are trying to put words in my mouth and this is fraudulent.I don't believe that. You showed your hand when you opened that rhetorical thread, admitting you wouldn't believe any response.
I disagree, obviously. Moving along..."The truth is that there is no way to reconcile them. If you believe in God and accept the Prophets, then you have to categorically deny the Bible, very literally." (the full quote which you left out which I explore below)
Yes they are my words, this is my view and you will come to see exactly what I mean by this when you read the post I've linked at the bottom of this reply. Even though you would interpret it as so, I am not actually meaning rejecting the Bible entirely but rather the assumptions and role of authority you hold to it, this will once again be explored in length in the post I link at the bottom of this reply.
These are your words:
You are trying to put words in my mouth and this is fraudulent.
Save this for the pulpit on Sunday man!The Gospels. It's not mythology, it's not the writings of a victorious henotheistic cult, not an amalgam of adapted scriptures from a variety of religions, it's not mere philosophy, it's not mere spirituality. It's unequalled and unprecedented divine revelation.
The Sumarians of Mesopotamia have an account that appears to be a counter-narrative of the characters described in Genesis 6 as the Nephilim.Not to hurt anyone's feels, but the Biblios is not the center of the world. It may be the center of your life, but that's all. There are Australian Aboriginals whose oral traditions go back 10,000 years. Have some respect people. Until we can value our spirituality and connection to the earth as equal to each other, we are no better than the fake priests and authorities Jesus condemned.
Enoch the Ethiopian, cool. Looks like a long lecture but I have time coming up- we'll check it out.The Sumarians of Mesopotamia have an account if the characters described in Genesis 6 as the Nephilim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu
The story of the Apkallu casts these fallen “sons of God” as the good guys.
There are many narratives out there which are mutually exclusive and not all of them can be true.
lol @respectSave this for the pulpit on Sunday man!
It's unprecedented divine revelation to you, originating in a select, tiny parcel of the planet.
@AspiringSoul has touched on these ideas, but it's easy to see a pattern within the development of religious understanding universally, and in separate regions. In the case of Christianity, the sect of Krishna worshipers in India took form at least a few hundred years before Jesus. Krishna was the incarnation of God/Brahma, the intangible made into divine human, etc. There are MANY striking similarities but most notable is both Krishna's and Christ's essential teaching is of love and devotional worship.
I've seen from other threads, self-centered Christians have a difficult time acknowledging the academic/historical truth of our religions. Evidence shows Judaism began sometime between 200-400 BC. By the 1st century there were 3 major divisions, the Pharisee, Sadducee, and Essene/Therapeuts. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who's teachings strongly exemplified Essenic beliefs. We have some knowledge about the 1st century AD prophets and apostles, much more about 2nd-3rd century Gnosticism and the eventual codifying of Hellenic theology in the 4th century.
The irony isn't that the Roman theologians based their contrived theories of Jesus on the philosophy of Plato, Philo, and Plotinus, it's that the earliest Greek philosphers like Socrates and Plato received their knowledge from travels to the Far East!
Not to hurt anyone's feels, but the Biblios is not the center of the world. It may be the center of your life, but that's all. There are Australian Aboriginals whose oral traditions go back 10,000 years. Have some respect people. Until we can value our spirituality and connection to the earth as equal to each other, we are no better than the fake priests and authorities Jesus condemned.
This talk picks up from where the Michael S. Heiser talk left off.lol @respect
'... we are no better than the fake priests and authorities Jesus condemned.'
'... contrived theories of Jesus'
Sounds like you've read more about the bible, rather than the bible, itself.
People have been following gods since time immemorial-- that is a crucial part of the story. Considering the subject matter, it is silly to assume the first recorded information is somehow more authentic, spiritually, reasonably or logically, simply because it came first.
I think that comparing so-called Christians to Pharisees is vastly more respectful than believing that someone is so fundamentally evil that they have to burn in hell forever. I have read the Bible quite a bit, especially the Four Gospels, and I don't find your doctrines in it. In fact you can only arrive at such doctrines by:lol @respect
'... we are no better than the fake priests and authorities Jesus condemned.'
'... contrived theories of Jesus'
Sounds like you've read more about the bible, rather than the bible, itself.
People have been following gods since time immemorial-- that is a crucial part of the story. Considering the subject matter, it is silly to assume the first recorded information is somehow more authentic, spiritually, reasonably or logically, simply because it came first.
Hey, didn't I play according to the rules? We were asked what scripture we'd recommend and why. My answer was given in complete sincerity.Save this for the pulpit on Sunday man!
It's unprecedented divine revelation to you, originating in a select, tiny parcel of the planet.
@AspiringSoul has touched on these ideas, but it's easy to see a pattern within the development of religious understanding universally, and in separate regions. In the case of Christianity, the sect of Krishna worshipers in India took form at least a few hundred years before Jesus. Krishna was the incarnation of God/Brahma, the intangible made into divine human, etc. There are MANY striking similarities but most notable is both Krishna's and Christ's essential teaching is of love and devotional worship.
I've seen from other threads, self-centered Christians have a difficult time acknowledging the academic/historical truth of our religions. Evidence shows Judaism began sometime between 200-400 BC. By the 1st century there were 3 major divisions, the Pharisee, Sadducee, and Essene/Therapeuts. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who's teachings strongly exemplified Essenic beliefs. We have some knowledge about the 1st century AD prophets and apostles, much more about 2nd-3rd century Gnosticism and the eventual codifying of Hellenic theology in the 4th century.
The irony isn't that the Roman theologians based their contrived theories of Jesus on the philosophy of Plato, Philo, and Plotinus, it's that the earliest Greek philosphers like Socrates and Plato received their knowledge from travels to the Far East!
Not to hurt anyone's feels, but the Biblios is not the center of the world. It may be the center of your life, but that's all. There are Australian Aboriginals whose oral traditions go back 10,000 years. Have some respect people. Until we can value our spirituality and connection to the earth as equal to each other, we are no better than the fake priests and authorities Jesus condemned.
Right on, I see where your coming from. It's a rare trait for Christians to be able to communicate their faith in plain terms that everyone can get, whether a scientist or from another religion, whoever. I'm only bugging over parts of the culture I interpret as ignorance, ill-will, arrogance, and fanaticism.Hey, didn't I play according to the rules? We were asked what scripture we'd recommend and why. My answer was given in complete sincerity.
I've done comparative religious research myself and in no way am I denying any divine revelations prior to Christian revelation. But I explicitly said "unequalled and unprecedented" to emphasize the uniqueness of divine revelation brought by Jesus. There are definitely overlaps between Christianity and certain Vedic teachings concerning the relationship between Krishna, Brahman and Atman, for instance, one could even extract trinities from the Vedic traditions and Zoroastrianism that are indeed strikingly similar to the Christian trinity, but there are still essential revelations in Christianity that are different.
It's not so much that the Bible is the center of human history, it's God entering human history as Jesus which is central, an event that is documented in the Gospels. Even Zoroaster prophesied about Christ or the Benefactor (Saoshyant) and I by no means reject the possibility of his prophetic legitimacy, quite the contrary in fact.