The Bible versus other religious texts

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#81
You therefore reject the bible, Christian apologetics sources AND personal explanations.
I don't reject the Bible, that's your own assumption from wherever you've imagined it.
Yes, I explained apologetics above.
No, I'm asking for personal experience and reasoning in this thread, that's exactly what I am asking for.

I'm not asking for you to repeat doctrines and superstitions to me (which I could recite back to you verbatim) I am asking for you to explain your own justifications for accepting the Bible over all other religious texts, maybe even share your experiences with other religions before finding Christianity etc. It's not THAT hard to do.
 





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#82
I think what you guys are missing is that @Infinityloop is not asking from a seeker’s point of view. He is asking from an intellectual/ philosophical point of view. If your version of Christianity and your view of the Bible is correct it should be able to stand up to philosophical and intellectual investigation.

@JoChris if you really think @Infinityloop has never read John you haven’t been paying attention. Your insistence on treating him like an ignorant, uneducated, unlearned seeker is quite tiresome and is not a good look for Christianity as a whole.
 





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#83
I think what you guys are missing is that @Infinityloop is not asking from a seeker’s point of view. He is asking from an intellectual/ philosophical point of view. If your version of Christianity and your view of the Bible is correct it should be able to stand up to philosophical and intellectual investigation.

@JoChris if you really think @Infinityloop has never read John you haven’t been paying attention. Your insistence on treating him like an ignorant, uneducated, unlearned seeker is quite tiresome and is not a good look for Christianity as a whole.
Todd, he desperately needs to read the Book of John. It presents the reason that Christianity is completely INCOMPATIBLE with Nihilism. You should know that.

Your second sentence : I type to people who I know have no knowledge of the bible and people who I know have some knowledge of the bible, but choose to ignore/ distort/ reject it very differently.

The first deserve a lot of slack. The second do not.
You also belong to the second category. You have rejected core Christian doctrines because they did not make sense to your human understanding. Anyone who chooses to search your posts will see that is true.
 





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#84
Say we were in a bookstore, in the religious section and you were asked to advice somebody what book to get and you wanted them to buy a copy of the Bible, what you say to them to convince them of how great the Bible is?

Remember, you have to sell it on it's validity over these other religious texts. You are also factoring in their potential salvation which you are very serious about. Go!
I'm not really even a Christian, in the doctrinal and confessional sense, but will say that I consider the Jesus of the Bible my true north (thanks @Lisa ), my lodestar, who has helped navigate my at times seriously wandering and cosmically lost bark, with whose help, and a blurry compass, I navigated some dark, in fact trecherous waters, and would recommend the Bible as what I rightly consider to be an absoutely living word, and have found that it is among the world's living scriptures which have, when one works on them, and reads them without hostility or rancor, the practically miraculous, uncanny ability and effect of working upon the reader in return, and that often for the better.

It's true that I sometimes, cat-like, use the scriptures to sharpen my claws, but just about the time I think I can discard them, some long-forgotten verse or verses I committed to memory come to me, in the darkest of my existential nights, and throw a supernatural light on the path I should have taken, or should be taking, and I return to at least a form of what I consider to be righteousness, which light, if I follow, leads me to a better, improved and ultimately peaceful place. For that, and them, I am therefore grateful.

Yes, I am a voracious reader of all of the world's sacred literature, and find much of value therein, but have never really found anything, even from the much-heralded and respected East and Far East, which says that, unlike achieving enlightenment, which is important, no doubt, one can actually have the ultimate Light, Jesus, within us and of us, if we get our egos out of the way and accept the Logos as our internal and external advisor, navigator, and, yes, savior. That, spiritually speaking, and though it can be easily misunderstod and lead to hyper-inflation instead of abnegation of the ego, is powerful stuff, and the gospels have stood on the strength of their spiritual merits for 2,000 years, and I hope they stand for as many more. They are, in other words, one of the roadmaps home, and are considerably better than anything written by Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking or Charles Darwin for the purpose, assuming one wants a way out rather than merely forward :). Sorry, in this case, for the run-on sentences. I should have subjected my writing to better editing.
 





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#85
Todd, he desperately needs to read the Book of John.
I don't think so. He holds his view because he has read it, you hold your views because YOU have probably never read it before in your life. I hold my view because I've probably read it too many times ;)

It presents the reason that Christianity is completely INCOMPATIBLE with Nihilism.
What is the meaning of life and existence in Christianity? give me your best answer to this. What meaning of life do you think Christianity conveys?
Also, what is the Christian root of morality?

How does your belief in belief factor into this meaning of life conveyed by Christianity?

Your second sentence : I type to people who I know have no knowledge of the bible and people who I know have some knowledge of the bible, but choose to ignore/ distort/ reject it very differently.
This is your subjective opinion. The only Christianity that is not subjective is Catholicism (which you unsurprisingly oppose). You follow the religion of one person, JoChris, and her interpretations of the Bible in accordance with Baptist (presumably) Protestantism's opinions on the same book. You are a hypocrite once you bring in the concept of distorting and rejecting things. There is nothing to accept or reject when it is merely the thoughts in your own head deciding things.

The first deserve a lot of slack. The second do not.
You also belong to the second category. You have rejected core Christian doctrines because they did not make sense to your human understanding. Anyone who chooses to search your posts will see that is true.
You have no right to determine what 'core Christian doctrines' are, as you have rejected the Catholic Church (which is Universal Christianity, not your own opinions on how you want to interpret the Bible). You are not the Pope, nor a person appointed by God to determine what is non-heretical Christian doctrine.
The Catholic church shed the blood of thousands over this topic, they are your appeal to authority whether you like it or not.
If you reject Catholicism then please rethink Christianity.
If you still hold onto the idea of heresy, please return to Catholicism.
 





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#86
I don't think so. He holds his view because he has read it, you hold your views because YOU have probably never read it before in your life. I hold my view because I've probably read it too many times ;)



What is the meaning of life and existence in Christianity? give me your best answer to this. What meaning of life do you think Christianity conveys?
Also, what is the Christian root of morality?

How does your belief in belief factor into this meaning of life conveyed by Christianity?



This is your subjective opinion. The only Christianity that is not subjective is Catholicism (which you unsurprisingly oppose). You follow the religion of one person, JoChris, and her interpretations of the Bible in accordance with Baptist (presumably) Protestantism's opinions on the same book. You are a hypocrite once you bring in the concept of distorting and rejecting things. There is nothing to accept or reject when it is merely the thoughts in your own head deciding things.



You have no right to determine what 'core Christian doctrines' are, as you have rejected the Catholic Church (which is Universal Christianity, not your own opinions on how you want to interpret the Bible). You are not the Pope, nor a person appointed by God to determine what is non-heretical Christian doctrine.
The Catholic church shed the blood of thousands over this topic, they are your appeal to authority whether you like it or not.
If you reject Catholicism then please rethink Christianity.
If you still hold onto the idea of heresy, please return to Catholicism.
The Bible outranks the Catholic church's false doctrines always. The RCC doctrines came well after the bible was completed.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html
I do not expect a non-Christian to understand why faith in Jesus Christ Himself, not a mere church is what saves an individual.
 





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#87
The Bible outranks the Catholic church's false doctrines always. The RCC doctrines came well after the bible was completed.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html
I do not expect a non-Christian to understand why faith in Jesus Christ Himself, not a mere church is what saves an individual.
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

- 1 Corinthians 12:12-28


I still remain unconvinced that the Bible can be anything other than just a book when outside of the Catholic tradition. At that, no matter how many times you can read the New Testament, you will not find Christianity and it's doctrines there. Nobody claims that the Church 'saves' the individual, Catholics don't claim such things.

You resort once again to the same unsubstantiated dogma. Ok JoChris, explain for us why "faith in Jesus Christ" is a reliable belief, WITHOUT mentioning the early Church. On what grounds do you hold the Bible as having any authority? (remember, even if the books of the Bible dated earlier, it wouldn't automatically mean that everything contained in them was actually true, merely only that they are books that dated to a closer date to the events they claim to record)

I still haven't gotten an answer from any Christian on this one (you'll ignore it obviously) but, Why Jesus over God? Why not just God?
 





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#89
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

- 1 Corinthians 12:12-28


I still remain unconvinced that the Bible can be anything other than just a book when outside of the Catholic tradition. At that, no matter how many times you can read the New Testament, you will not find Christianity and it's doctrines there. Nobody claims that the Church 'saves' the individual, Catholics don't claim such things.

You resort once again to the same unsubstantiated dogma. Ok JoChris, explain for us why "faith in Jesus Christ" is a reliable belief, WITHOUT mentioning the early Church. On what grounds do you hold the Bible as having any authority? (remember, even if the books of the Bible dated earlier, it wouldn't automatically mean that everything contained in them was actually true, merely only that they are books that dated to a closer date to the events they claim to record)

I still haven't gotten an answer from any Christian on this one (you'll ignore it obviously) but, Why Jesus over God? Why not just God?
The Book of Isaiah was written nearly 700 years BC. His “seal” appears to have been recently found btw:-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...Seal-impression-signature-Prophet-Isaiah.html

Isaiah 53 is sometimes called the “Forbidden Chapter” in Judaism because of its contents...


Given that the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus can be supported to a great extent by external, sometimes hostile witnesses, to suggest that this was anything other than a clearly fulfilled prophecy would show a desire for it not to be true.


The timing, based on the calculation of Daniels 70 weeks is worth examining.


In addition, the “star” of Bethlehem which uncannily appears to have been a real alignment adds a further witness...


So, we have prophecy, historical corroboration, timing and cosmic events verified.

From the extensive reading of other religious texts represented on this forum, do any of these offer anything even close?
 





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#90
The Book of Isaiah was written nearly 700 years BC.

Isaiah 53 is sometimes called the “Forbidden Chapter” in Judaism because of its contents...


Given that the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus can be supported to a great extent by external, sometimes hostile witnesses, to suggest that this was anything other than a clearly fulfilled prophecy would show a desire for it not to be true.

The timing, based on the calculation of Daniels 70 weeks is worth examining.


In addition, the “star” of Bethlehem which uncannily appears to have been a real alignment adds a further witness...


So, we have prophecy, historical corroboration, timing and cosmic events verified.

From the extensive reading of other religious texts represented on this forum, do any of these offer anything even close?
What you write doesn't have much to do with this but lets put this into perspective (taking on the assumption that your poor anachronistic interpretation of Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus and also taking on the second assumption that Matthew Mark Luke and John are actually reliable), the Book of Isaiah was one of the most read Jewish texts in the 1st century. It became in many ways a pinnacle of Jewish identity (even more than Ezekiel). It is NOT hard to see the writers of the New Testament as simply writing a story about such expectations in the 1st century and writing many different books based off it (and given that Matthew Mark Luke and John all quote directly from Isaiah without hiding it). That alone, again entertaining your premise, makes it beyond believably from a historical point of view. It can be easily seen as self-fulfilled prophecy (and given that Jews rejected the New Testament texts wholesale, it isn't at all surprising).

Isaiah 53 has already been talked about, I've sent Lisa to many articles (which she didn't even bother to read) which outline Isaiah 53 from a Jewish perspective. If anything, I find your Christian anachronistic eisegesis to be very disrespectful when the prophecy itself is not about the Moshiach (Messiah) at all, it's about the Jewish people themselves. You cannot read one verse from Isaiah and then base your whole worldview on that, read the entirety of Isaiah and analyse the structure and the themes and messages it conveys.

The kind of esiegesis you are promoting would not be taken seriously at all by proper Christian theologians, nor by anyone familiar with the texts in question.



Also I forgot to add, this is just you using the Bible to prove the Bible which is circular reasoning if you don't provide external justification. You have to make an appeal to something else in order to allow such a self-referential argument count as a proof of some manner. This would only be possible really if you rejected the concept of a canon were they where both two completely different texts from completely different places that undeniably verified each other without any kind of cross-contamination (such as direct quotations, of which it is clearly full with). However everything is missing from your argument, which is somewhat disappointing.
 





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#91
I think what you guys are missing is that @Infinityloop is not asking from a seeker’s point of view. He is asking from an intellectual/ philosophical point of view. If your version of Christianity and your view of the Bible is correct it should be able to stand up to philosophical and intellectual investigation.

@JoChris if you really think @Infinityloop has never read John you haven’t been paying attention. Your insistence on treating him like an ignorant, uneducated, unlearned seeker is quite tiresome and is not a good look for Christianity as a whole.
He vacillates between what he is (and is not!) looking for, in each and every thread he creates. The dishonesty coupled with the persecution complex is exhausting, but that seems to be the point.

lol @not a good look for Christianity. May as well just say 'Submit, @JoChris ! Be a milquetoast or the Gospel will suffer!'

That is low-hanging fruit you're after.


I don't know why you're quoting that, unless you mean in reference to another thread where the same thing on this thread happened. That very post you quoted was in response to people completely ignoring the question asked.
No, it wasn't... it was in response to me. :)

Anyone can read it for themselves.

I don't recall slinging any of the insults you've attributed to Christians on the board (uncited), either. I don't understand why you have such a problem with Christianity or the bible, in particular. There is no requirement that you believe any of it.
 





Robin

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#92
I don't recall slinging any of the insults you've attributed to Christians on the board (uncited), either. I don't understand why you have such a problem with Christianity or the bible, in particular. There is no requirement that you believe any of it.
Precisely. Apparently he's been met with nothing but venomous hellfire lambasting but I am pretty sure that sort of dialogue had only occurred between himself and a few (as in 2 or 3) self-professed Christians on this board. And instead of either simply a) ignoring them especially if he considers their beliefs as fraudulent and arbitrary as he claims, or b) simply hashing it out with the individuals he has an issue with, he extrapolates said interactions into sweeping conclusions of the faith and all Christians in general. Never mind the constant goading into fruitless arguments and countless threads he's opened deriding Christians/Christianity. I really don't understand why the need to do that and then claim being the victim. Just let it go.
 





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#93
He vacillates between what he is (and is not!) looking for, in each and every thread he creates. The dishonesty coupled with the persecution complex is exhausting, but that seems to be the point.

lol @not a good look for Christianity. May as well just say 'Submit, @JoChris ! Be a milquetoast or the Gospel will suffer!'

That is low-hanging fruit you're after.
The cognitive dissonance is strong here. You are the one who is offended at questioning truth claims. You cannot hold me in contempt when I question the validity of your threats, it does not work @elsbet

No, it wasn't... it was in response to me. :)

Anyone can read it for themselves.

I don't recall slinging any of the insults you've attributed to Christians on the board (uncited), either. I don't understand why you have such a problem with Christianity or the bible, in particular. There is no requirement that you believe any of it.
I would advice you to read the reply to that post as well and also try to answer the thread, it was a good question related back to the question of divine revelation itself and how that can possibly be reconciled with the believe in the Bible. That discussion is not for this thread.
 





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#94
They are, in other words, one of the roadmaps home, and are considerably better than anything written by Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking or Charles Darwin for the purpose, assuming one wants a way out rather than merely forward :). Sorry, in this case, for the run-on sentences. I should have subjected my writing to better editing.
Oh, that my signature could accommodate all of that, above. lol

As for editing, none is required... True North, indeed! Very well said, Serveto.
 





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#95
Precisely. Apparently he's been met with nothing but venomous hellfire lambasting but I am pretty sure that sort of dialogue had only occurred between himself and a few (as in 2 or 3) self-professed Christians on this board. And instead of either simply a) ignoring them especially if he considers their beliefs as fraudulent and arbitrary as he claims, or b) simply hashing it out with the individuals he has an issue with, he extrapolates said interactions into sweeping conclusions of the faith and all Christians in general. Never mind the constant goading into fruitless arguments and countless threads he's opened deriding Christians/Christianity. I really don't understand why the need to do that and then claim being the victim. Just let it go.
My only method is to ask for people to back up their beliefs when they make threatening claims, that is how we're here. I do not proselytize (notice something) or threaten you with anything (well other than to be critical about yourself).
 





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#97
I really don't understand why the need to do that and then claim being the victim. Just let it go.
Try this, go back through the 40 or so pages in this religious section and look at Christians talking about other religions, why am I being censored for asking about Christianity when Christians freely talk about other religions how ever they please? why are the truthclaims and the presented worldview of Christians exempt from discussing?
 





Robin

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#98
My only method is to ask for people to back up their beliefs when they make threatening claims, that is how were here. I do not proselytize (notice something) or threaten you with anything (well other than to be critical about yourself).
You say one thing but your posts reflect something different.
Ok, start with this thread. How has this happened? was my OP unreasonable Robin? was it?

Was this post completely offensive to you?: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-248568
I'm not just referring to this OP but your general running commentary on this site. We've spoken about this, how attack flows both ways but you only acknowledge it when targeted towards you so you have an excuse to spew as much anti-Christian vitriol as you can.
Try this, go back through the 40 or so pages in this religious section and look at Christians talking about other religions, why am I being censored for asking about Christianity? why are the truthclaims and the presented worldview of Christians exempt from discussing?
Lol, and yet they aren't the ones starting countless threads tearing those religions and adherents thereof down. You are not being censored. You're being questioned on the level of aggression with which you start these fights under the guise of intellectual interest. You get discussion, you just reject points made. It's tiring to watch.
 





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#99
You say one thing but your posts reflect something different.
Show me a single instance where I've countered a threat or a truthclaim with the same back to them? I always question the validity of those truthclaims and threats, and sometimes critique them and point out errors in them.

If I am proselytizing, please show me where and how. That would be quite funny, as I do often mentioned how much I am opposed to it.

I'm not just referring to this OP but your general running commentary on this site. We've spoken about this, how attack flows both ways but you only acknowledge it when targeted towards you so you have an excuse to spew as much anti-Christian vitriol as you can.
Try imagining a world for a moment where everyone holds different strongly-held beliefs both with and against each other, what would you do?
would you counter that with more beliefs or start asking questions?

Lol, and yet they aren't the ones starting countless threads tearing those religions and adherents thereof down. You are not being censored. You're being questioned on the level of aggression with which you start these fights under the guise of intellectual interest.
Aggression aye? it'll take a turtle to walk a highway till you find any ounce of that. However, for the Christians here the same cannot be said.

You get discussion, you just reject points made.
What kinds of points do you think I'm rejecting? I do not reject dignified responses to the questions I ask, afterall my goal is truth not illusion. I LOVE good responses that show care about the subject and show the same concerns about understanding the merits and pitfalls of different worldviews.

Lets try an experiment Robin, since you've started participating in this thread. You offer me a "point" about my OP? then we will discuss if what you put forth is a deserving response.
Remember that agreement is not what is ever being asked on any of these threads, it's reasoning and understanding the process of acquiring beliefs.