The Bible versus other religious texts

[Infinityloop]

You showed your hand when you opened that rhetorical thread, admitting you wouldn't believe any response.

/shrug

Citations please.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Infinityloop: "Is there any reason that you believe in the Bible?"
VCchristians: "No, don't ask"
Infinityloop: "Why would you want me to believe your beliefs then if you don't even know why you believe them?"

OK - perhaps this perceived shallowness is the place to start. I believe the Bible, and I have, for many years examined my reasons for doing so. There are many thinking Christians who are wired up like me, each of who might venture the reasons they have to put their faith in the Bible and the one who inspired its writing.

Perhaps a productive direction for this thread to take might be to ask “Why do Christians believe the Bible and what evidence can they offer to current agnostics and others who doubt its claim of reliability?”

 

[Infinityloop]

OK - perhaps this perceived shallowness is the place to start. I believe the Bible, and I have, for many years examined my reasons for doing so. There are many thinking Christians who are wired up like me, each of who might venture the reasons they have to put their faith in the Bible and the one who inspired its writing.

Perhaps a productive direction for this thread to take might be to ask “Why do Christians believe the Bible and what evidence can they offer to current agnostics and others who doubt its claim of reliability?”

No, it'd be better if the OP could be answered first, which is not that question.
You, and your peers, have already made apologetic threads trying to defend the Bible as authentic and reliable, it's not very helpful when I already have plenty of access to proper scholarship about Bible manuscripts.

 

[Infinityloop]

It seems that this post here very much is the height of where this thread probably will go: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-233610

Continuing to dodge the OP is way to prevalent to expect any positive results from this thread. Christians want you to believe in their arbitrary beliefs for no reason at all, only to appease their emotions. This is the lesson the thread that has unfortunately resulted from the constant derailing of the thread by the Christians here. This kind of behavior is what breeds Atheists from young Christians, remember that. If you have a son or daughter and you have this kind of anti-rationality, they will become Atheists. If you have friends at work and you're 'the Christian guy', they will probably associate you to be 'the idiot' under their breath - and no, not for having Christian beliefs, not that at all.

For those onlookers reading, we are doomed to hell and that's all we are allowed to know. The Bible is just true and no questions asked, whatever doctrines Christians believe are by default true and if you question it, then you are a satanist. This is the VC Christian script. Sadly, I don't sense this will change. It's "You infinityloop need to believe our beliefs, no questions asked" ad infinitum with the casual insult thrown towards me for sticking up for the only logical solution: that contradicting worldviews can only be discussed when examining things rationally with emphasis on trying to understand the reasoning behind holding beliefs, rather than just restating the beliefs again and again and again and again that everyone knows you already hold.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No, it'd be better if the OP could be answered first, which is not that question.
You, and your peers, have already made apologetic threads trying to defend the Bible as authentic and reliable, it's not very helpful when I already have plenty of access to proper scholarship about Bible manuscripts.

In a court of law, a witness is invited to present evidence, they can only provide from where they stand. Does that make sense?

 

[Infinityloop]

In a court of law, a witness is invited to present evidence, they can only provide from where they stand. Does that make sense?

Of course I know what you're saying, that is dodging the point of discussion. Again.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Of course I know what you're saying, that is dodging the point of discussion. Again.

I am simply suggesting the contribution Christians might intelligently make to this thread. Perhaps it might be worth identifying the areas which could be regarded as admissible evidence as far as texts are concerned?

 

[Infinityloop]

I am simply suggesting the contribution Christians might intelligently make to this thread. Perhaps it might be worth identifying the areas which could be regarded as admissible evidence as far as texts are concerned?

Here's me having to redirect you to the questions being asked...again

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-248659

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Here's me having to redirect you to the questions being asked...again

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-248659

Speaking to someone about to jump from a building, a negotiator can take a few different routes.

“Don’t jump!!”

or

“Let’s talk about why you want to jump, and if you still want to jump afterwards, at least you have thought it through”

Response number 1 is a natural, knee jerk response, number 2 is often more successful.

 

[A Freeman]

Say we were in a bookstore, in the religious section and you were asked to advice somebody what book to get and you wanted them to buy a copy of the Bible, what you say to them to convince them of how great the Bible is?

Remember, you have to sell it on it's validity over these other religious texts. You are also factoring in their potential salvation which you are very serious about. Go!

Over two-thirds of the Bible is prophecy, over 99% of which has already been fulfilled in exact and minute detail. Only a fool would look at that track record and think that the remaining fraction of a percent won't likewise be fulfilled in exact and minute detail. What other book has been shown to so accurately predict future events in such detail?

The first five books of the Bible contain The Law, given to mankind to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free. The Law is not only THE criteria for determining what is right and wrong, but it also forms the basis for the following:

- The Perfect Agricultural System, with no chemicals or GMOs poisoning the environment

- the Perfect Economic System, with no usury, no poverty and thus no poverty-related crime

- the Perfect System of Governance, with no political parties, politicians, organized religions or their leaders, or any of their made-up rules

- the Perfect System of Justice, with no attorneys/lawyers/barristers or trial-by-media circuses

- the Perfect Healthy Diet

What other book can offer these tried-and-true guaranteed solutions to ALL of the world's problems? It's the ultimate self-improvement book. And it contains the ONLY blueprint there is for salvation, i.e. how to leave planet Earth.

What other book can offer all of these things?

Unfortunately, because people don't read it, much less apply it, organized religions and their priests, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc. have used and abused it, and kept it divided into separate parts to serve their greedy, evil purposes, even though the Bible itself condemns all organized religions and their spiritually blind leaders.

If anyone is genuinely interested in making this world a truly better place for all concerned, then they should read the Bible, the most accurate of which is available as a free gift to the world at the following hyperlink:

The King of kings' Bible

 

[Robin]

If the gospel can be pitched and "sold" then it's not worth having. There are nuggets of wisdom even the most anti-Christian person can find in the bible and from Jesus's ministry alone. My personal value on the bible comes from an increasing understanding of its wisdom and vitality. It's an interactive book and most of it probably won't make sense on a surface level to someone not interested in digging deeper. It's not my job to "sell" the bible. Those who seek shall find and all.

 

[elsbet]

Citations please.

Gladly.

--->Right here.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Here's me having to redirect you to the questions being asked...again

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-bible-versus-other-religious-texts.6290/post-248659

Is your OP and suggested pattern of communication really an invitation for Christians to immerse themselves in a rainbow of spiritual texts (that cannot all be true but may all be false)?

If this is the case can you tell me how it is different to telling a happily married person that the only way they can really know they are with the right one is through dating other people? I know it sounds absurd to compare the two things, but think about it.

A Christian enters into a relationship with God. People who have never been in love or married anyone cannot understand what a relationship like that means. It is something you truly only know from the inside. In the same way, a Christian can be reasonably asked to provide their reasons for faith, but not to pursue other spiritually toxic paths in order to “win” some academic point.

Those “outside” the Christian faith can hear the sounds from those within the building but never understand till they come through the door. Someone standing at the door can do their best to describe what is inside to those looking askance at the building, but that is as far as they can go.

To explore this idea in words better than my own, consider “Meditation in a Toolshed” by C.S. Lewis:-


“Meditation in a Toolshed”
C. S. Lewis

I was standing today in the dark toolshed. The sun was shining outside and through the crack at the top of the door there came a sunbeam. From where I stood that beam of light, with the specks of dust floating in it, was the most striking thing in the place. Everything else was almost pitch-black. I was seeing the beam, not seeing things by it.
Then I moved, so that the beam fell on my eyes. Instantly the whole previous picture vanished. I saw no toolshed, and (above all) no beam. Instead I saw, framed in the irregular cranny at the top of the door, green leaves moving on the branches of a tree outside and beyond that, 90 odd million miles away, the sun. Looking along the beam, and looking at the beam are very different experiences...

Full text

1 Originally published in The Coventry Evening Telegraph (July 17, 1945); reprinted in God in the Dock (Eerdmans, 1970; 212-15).

 

[elsbet]

Is your OP and suggested pattern of communication really an invitation for Christians to immerse themselves in a rainbow of spiritual texts (that cannot all be true but may all be false)?

If this is the case can you tell me how it is different to telling a happily married person that the only way they can really know they are with the right one is through dating other people? I know it sounds absurd to compare the two things, but think about it.

A Christian enters into a relationship with God. People who have never been in love or married anyone cannot understand what a relationship like that means. It is something you truly only know from the inside. In the same way, a Christian can be reasonably asked to provide their reasons for faith, but not to pursue other spiritually toxic paths in order to “win” some academic point.

Those “outside” the Christian faith can hear the sounds from those within the building but never understand till they come through the door. Someone standing at the door can do their best to describe what is inside to those looking askance at the building, but that is as far as they can go.

To explore this idea in words better than my own, consider “Meditation in a Toolshed” by C.S. Lewis:-


“Meditation in a Toolshed”
C. S. Lewis

I was standing today in the dark toolshed. The sun was shining outside and through the crack at the top of the door there came a sunbeam. From where I stood that beam of light, with the specks of dust floating in it, was the most striking thing in the place. Everything else was almost pitch-black. I was seeing the beam, not seeing things by it.
Then I moved, so that the beam fell on my eyes. Instantly the whole previous picture vanished. I saw no toolshed, and (above all) no beam. Instead I saw, framed in the irregular cranny at the top of the door, green leaves moving on the branches of a tree outside and beyond that, 90 odd million miles away, the sun. Looking along the beam, and looking at the beam are very different experiences...

Full text

1 Originally published in The Coventry Evening Telegraph (July 17, 1945); reprinted in God in the Dock (Eerdmans, 1970; 212-15).

I have dog-eared copy of God in the Dock. I bought it used, and I have dragged it along with me, as part of my 'collection, for years. Who knew it was on pdf?

Fortunately... it is. For anyone who may be interested-- God in the Dock.

And that essentially means 'God in court.' Great read.

 

[Toulouse]

Uhmmm...I thought I was posting on the religion/spirituality thread and answering a question on that thread. No, I'm not trying to convert you, or anyone - ust a "newbie" not knowing what he's doing on the site quite yet.

 

[Toulouse]

...but, Red Sky at Morning, I think I opened a wound, which was not my intent. Again, this was supposed to be part of a religious/spiritual discussion...you made some good points

 

[Mr.Anderson]

Say we were in a bookstore, in the religious section and you were asked to advice somebody what book to get and you wanted them to buy a copy of the Bible, what you say to them to convince them of how great the Bible is?

Remember, you have to sell it on it's validity over these other religious texts. You are also factoring in their potential salvation which you are very serious about. Go!

First things first. I put on my robe and aluminum hat.

Then I talk about elsagate, the state of brazilian universities, Desmond Is Amazing is a good topic too.

Aleister Crowley, the beast and the theatrical piece "macaquinhos" also come in this convo.

MKUltra, Moloch, child sacrifices and the elite... well, basically what we talk about here on VC.

THEN, I speak why the holy trinity is the only thing that is preserving you from all this.

Of course, this takes a bit of time. I only speak this to semi-close friends. Most people are aware that there is something wrong in this world.

To a complete stranger I'd give a few pointers and some research topics. There is smply no way of telling "you should believe in this because X and Y and Z". Deciding to love God (or whatever decision in religion for that matter) must come from within, the best you hope to do is point them in the right direction.

 

[Toulouse]

I replied last night (Sunday) but it is under review. Not sure why it's taking so long. Also, I cannot find it. Lastly, how do I change my icon from a "T" to something else?

 

[Toulouse]

Ok, I found my post but it says that it is hidden from regular visitors, or something to that nature.

 

[Todd]

Say we were in a bookstore, in the religious section and you were asked to advice somebody what book to get and you wanted them to buy a copy of the Bible, what you say to them to convince them of how great the Bible is?

Remember, you have to sell it on it's validity over these other religious texts. You are also factoring in their potential salvation which you are very serious about. Go!

I've never "evangelized" by trying to sell the Bible and don't think I ever will. That's not a knock on any Christian who has or does.

I demonstrate the unconditional love of God and that opens up the doors to talk about my faith. If someone can't see something different about me and my life, then what's the point in trying to sell them on a book? You know that saying the proof is in the pudding? If someone can't sense there is something different about me, then I think it would be a waste of time to convince them about the Bible.
The Bible itself says "taste and see that the lord is good". I contend that individuals become convinced the Bible contains the word of God when they attempt to apply it to their lives and see fruit from it.

People are drawn to any faith because they admire or respect the fruit of that faith in someone they personally know. Once someone is drawn to may faith, then I share with them how my personal faith is based on the word of God contained in the Bible.

I have no need to convince someone my book is more valid then someone else's.