@phipps (I think there was a formatting issue so that is why the formatting here is a little odd)
Etagloc said:
I haven't lumped all Christians in with Christian Zionism. I specifically said:
It appeared like you did when you said "Christianity is morally and doctrinally bankrupt. What's left of Christianity is basically just a propaganda tool to support colonialism.", I took it as you lumping us all in one basket. You do know that statement is not true right?
I was speaking in a general sense. Christianity to a large extent has been taken over the Christian Zionists.
As far as violence in the Quran, the Quran doesn't really have all that much violence. That misconception might seem plausible to people who have never studied the Quran and who only are going off media propaganda- however, that perception is false. The Bible has a lot more violence than the Quran.
Its not about how much violence there is in the Quran compared to the Bible. Before I make my point I should remind you that the Quran is a much smaller book than the Bible. Its even smaller than the New Testament which is the smaller of the two Testaments. There is less of everything in the Quran compared to the Bible.
My point is some violence in the Quran (however much or little there is) is advocated. Sharia law for example allows caning, amputating hands, stoning to death. There is blood revenge and Jihad. I'm going to repeatedly say that my point was I shouldn't lump all Muslims in the same basket just because some of them practice these things and believe in them. I know for a fact many don't agree with these aspects of the Quran.
I am for sharia. However, hadd punishment has to be carried out with the permission of the ruler. For example, according to Islamic law, there is the punishment for adulterers. However, I cannot simply carry out the punishment if I know my neighbor is committing adultery.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with sharia and for Muslims to oppose sharia... there is a risk of them committing apostasy.
I am 100% for sharia. However, hadd punishments have to be carried out with the permission of the ruler and unless you live in an Islamic country, I seriously doubt the ruler is going to implement sharia. I seriously a doubt a Muslim population of like 2%, 5%, 20% or even 50% is going to be implementing sharia as the law of the state. Sharia is part of Islam and anyone who says they're a Muslim and is against sharia should be ashamed and is possibly an apostate. So I support sharia, every Muslim should support sharia and whoever does not is possibly an apostate. I have zero intention of apologizing for supporting sharia. I have no intention of lying to appease non-Muslims.
However, as far as violence in the Quran... I think the proportion of violence in the OT is higher. I do think the proportion in the NT is lower, though. My beliefs are closer to the Old Testament and to Judaism than to the New Testament. I actually always preferred the Old Testament. I never really liked the New Testament. I always preferred the Old Testament. And my beliefs are closer to the Old Testament. I respect Jesus (PBUH) and I acknowledge that Jesus (PBUH) was a Prophet. However, I believe that Abraham (PBUH), Moses (PBUH), and Jesus (PBUH) all taught the same religion. I don't believe Jesus (PBUH) was sent and suddenly it was okay for people to eat pork and suddenly it is wrong for society to apply the punishment for adultery. What I believe is closer to Judaism and to the Old Testament. I believe that we Muslims are the true followers of the religion of Abraham (PBUH) and that the Christians have gone astray, as mentioned in Surah Al-Fatiha (as opposed to being those who incurred God's wrath).
Muslims have a right to believe in the Quran, to believe in every word of it and we do not have to go against the Quran and the Sunnah in order to appease the non-Muslims. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Quran and a lot of the people who promote wrong perceptions of the Quran take verses out of context. I have every right to believe in my religion and no one has any right to try to force me to go against my religion. Just as Christians are free to believe in their religion and Jews are free to believe in their religion, I am free to believe in my religion. I have no intention of letting any non-Muslim rewrite my theology for me. I bow only to Allah. If you become the head of state, I am sure you will run things in accordance with your beliefs. If I become ruler, insha'Allah I will rule based on
my beliefs. However, if you disagree with my thinking, I think you can rest relaxed- I seriously doubt I'm going to win many votes with giving speeches against heliocentrism. And I don't believe in democracy to begin with, so I doubt I'd be running in the first place. Plus, I honestly have no desire to be head of state. Plus I don't believe in rebelling against the ruler. So given all those factors, I seriously doubt I'll every be running the country and I'm perfectly content with that. However, Islam is the right way for humanity and is perfect and I wish for all people to embrace Islam- just as I'm sure you would like for all people to believe in Christianity.
People can take verses out of context with either book. The idea that the Quran is about violence is simply false and based on lack of actual knowledge of the Quran. Whoever believes that has probably never even read a translation of the Quran, much less really studied it.
True, people can take verses out of context with either book and I will add, then jump to conclusions without knowing much about the books they talk about. Personally I don't think the Quran is about violence, although what I've read about what it says about violence in some parts I disagree with. I repeat, I wrote about how you put all Christianity in one basket and said "Christianity is morally and doctrinally bankrupt. What's left of Christianity is basically just a propaganda tool to support colonialism." I said I could say the same thing about Islam. I could judge it as violent and say they are all intolerant and terrorists. I know Islam isn't like that for the most part and it would be wrong of me to think that. I know because I grew up with Muslims.
I don't think I put Christians in one basket. If you read my statement in a 100% literal way, I think it could be interpreted in that way. However, I think the true meaning of a statement involves the intended meaning. And my intended meaning meant Christianity in general- not
all Christians; just as a person talking about "the Russians" isn't necessarily talking about
all Russians.
I encourage you to pick a Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran with Yusuf Ali's commentary to learn for yourself about the Quran. I ask that you get one without the Arabic, so you can touch it without wudu.
I completely disagree with Islam and its doctrines, so what I know about it is more than enough. I am not going to study more about it. If I'm going to study more of anything, it will be the Bible.
To you is your way, to me is mine. You're free to believe what you like. I don't expect everyone to think like me, although of course I hope for Allah to guide people. Islam is the primordial religion.
Now as far as violence.... violence is not a monopoly of any religion. There are Jewish terrorists, Hindu terrorists, Christian terrorists, terrorists who say they are Muslim, etc.
Agreed. I know there are terrorists from different religions but at the moment Muslim terrorists are the ones making the headlines and have done for years. As I said, my point was about lumping all Christians or all Muslims into one basket based on what we hear about them in the media or TV or read about them especially certain factions like Isis.
You talk about me supposedly lumping all Christians together, however I have already explained my intended meaning in the referenced statement.
I recommend you watch "Is Terrorism a Muslim Monopoly" by Zakir Naik where he dispells the myths propagated by the Zionist-controlled media. And frankly that's exactly what it is- the media is controlled by Zionists and promotes false perceptions of Islam for the sake of its agenda.
I agree that the media is controlled by Zionists and I do believe they promote false perceptions about Islam. They are doing the same thing with Christianity but from a different perspective. They are making Christianity secular. What the Zionists and illuminists want is global ecumenism which is total control of everyone whether they are Muslim or not. All religion is being attacked. All those that do not want to pull with the mainstream or with ecumenism will be seen as stubborn and as fanatical fundamentalists.
Well yes, if Muslims do not betray the basic principles of their religion, they will quite likely be accused of being fundamentalists, "extremists," etc. I got compared to ISIS and Osama Bin Laden simply for having a beard. So I just accept that people will say things. The people who follow God have always faced tests. When we have to choose between seeking the approval of God and the approval of people, we have to opt for seeking God's approval- and this is jihad, by the way. Jihad is a person giving up alcohol, jihad is a busy father taking time to spend time with his son, jihad is turning off the TV and opening the Quran, jihad is seeking knowledge, jihad is calling to Allah even though people will harass you and mock you, jihad is getting up early to worship Allah, jihad is guarding one's chastity. You mentioned jihad and I definitely believe i jihad. I try to engage in jihad all the time. I might see a beautiful woman and I try to lower my gaze, for example. So I hate how people promote a wrong idea of what jihad is. Jihad is a beautiful thing. Jihad is striving in the way of Allah. If a person gives up smoking cigarettes even though they want to smoke cigarettes- I don't see anything wrong with that.
As far as Christian persecution in Muslim countries.... my neighbor is from Jordan, his family is Christian and he specifically told me that they were not persecuted in Jordan. There's bad apples in every group.
I agree. I didn't say Christians are persecuted in ALL Muslim countries.
Christians shouldn't be persecuted, period. I am of the thinking that we should engage in jihad against the Christians by subjecting them to stern lectures (without raising the voice) and respectfully allowing them to say their point of view. If things get really heated, though, I think we should break out the "heavy artillery" and hand them some pamphlets. I have some excellent pamphlets, Alhamdulilaah.
Just to reiterate, though- Christians should not be persecuted. I think society is doing too much to persecute Christians and make them feel uncomfortable and I think society should be more tolerant of Christians. Nowadays I think Christians can be fired from their jobs simply for their beliefs and I think this is wrong.
Now I agree with you on being against "Christian" Zionism- but I myself have shown that I already spoke about Christians who are against Zionism.
Then I'm glad we agree on that point. Christianity and Zionism don't belong together in any way at all. The Bible is against Zionism too.
Is the Bible against Zionism? I honestly have no idea what the Biblical position on Zionism is. However, Zionism is against the Bible's mora teachings... it is against one's own basic humanity. A person's mind has to seriously be warped to support Zionism.
However, I wish more Christians were working to stop their religion from being hijacked by Zionism. I get that you might say "what about ISIS hijacking Islam"..... but ordinary Muslims are against ISIS. I've already made threads against ISIS. And most mainstream Muslim speakers speak against ISIS. Zionism is mainstream among Christians, however. I am not meaning hostility, I am simply stating facts.
I know you're not being hostile. I can't speak for other Christians but the Christians I know (including myself) and worship with, know about Zionism and don't agree with it. They understand what the Bible says about Israel and so it will be hard to hijack them on that subject. I don't know if Zionism is mainstream within Christianity but thank God that there are Christians don't believe in it because the Word of God doesn't teach it either. Those who call themselves Christian Zionists need to read the Bible on the subject and not just listen to what their preachers are telling them. I believe God will lead many "Christian Zionists" to the truth about Israel according to the Bible.
You've written a lot against Zionism. I think I offended you by making you think I was lumping all Christians in with Zionists and I don't think I understood how much I offended you. Your heart has purity, I think. I am surprised how against Zionism you are. I have a different theology than you have, but insofar as you are against Zionism, I am with you 100%.
I think you are a rare breed- a sincere Christian. There are so many who say they believe in Christianity and don't really mean it that I might overlook the sincere Christians.
We hear a lot about tolerating various groups but we almost never hear about the necessity of tolerating Christians and letting them feel free to follow their beliefs and not trying to intimidate them into giving up their beliefs. I think that society is trying to force Christians to give up their beliefs by putting pressure on them. I'm all for debating theology with Christians. But trying to create an atmosphere of intimidation and pressure for Christian, trying to thought-police them.... making them feel that they are unsafe simply for their beliefs is wrong. Now Christian Zionism (if that isn't a contradiction in terms- and I'm leaning towards the opinion that it is)- I'm against that, as an extension of my opposition to Zionism. But Christianity in and of itself.... I disagree with it theologically, sure but I'm not entirely, 100% against it. I would much rather people believe in Christianity than atheism.