The Bible Is Very Edited

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul -

Matthew 18 - immenance?

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 3 - dynamism?

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Immanence refers to God's divinity.
Here Jesus stipulates a condition ie that he is in the hearts of those who follow him......it has it's mystical nature of course but it is still based on conditions.
God's Immanence is not based on conditions, even if you are not aware of God's immanence, He is still immanent.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul

"They believed in God and lived a righteous life because God's Grace was on them."

My understanding is that their Faith saved them. There was no arbitrary Grace that turned them into auto-believers with good behavior.

Faith >>> Counted as Righteousness >>> Salvation

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

example of Prophet Mohammad SAW


only a small part of the hadith
Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira.

 

[elsbet]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is from the New Testament-- Ephesians 2. It doesn't apply here. Even, so, it was, again, not an arbitrary Grace, but one afforded to us through the Sacrifice-- that verse is taken out of its proper context.

Anyway, you and I were speaking specifically of the Patriarch's means to Salvation, prior to the Law, in the Old Testament-- and the Law (which never saved a soul) long preceded the Crucifixion.

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:3

But still, it's interesting to note that the Lamb [was] slain from the foundation of the world.
**

 

[Dmitri]

We should treat the Book of Enoch (and the other books like it) in the same manner we do the other Apocryphal writings. Some of what the Apocrypha says is true and correct, but at the same time, much of it is false and historically inaccurate. If you read these books, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God."

I also downloaded and read it. Very very interesting. Makes sense as to what is actually going on in this world

 

[JoChris]

Let me put this to rest and educate you on your own religion which you truly have no idea about because if you did you wouldn't be tossing these uneducated statements ever after I have just told you that the Kaaba and the black stone are only a focal point in the direction Muslims face when they pray to the MOST HIGH. It's only your subjective feelings and current anti-Islamic beliefs that lead you to believe that Muslims pray to the Kaaba/black stone instead of the reality, which every Muslim will tell you is that the Kaaba is only there to be the point in which people that believe in the Most High pray towards. It's as simple as that. You believing otherwise makes your ignorant of your own religion or you're flat out just trolling.

When Jacob got up early the next morning, he took the rock that he had used for a pillow and stood it up for a place of worship. Then he poured olive oil on the rock to dedicate it to God

- Genesis 28:18

Then Moses wrote down what the Lord had said. The next morning Moses got up early. He built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up a large stone for each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

- Exodus 24:4

On the second day they marched around the city once and returned to the camp. They did this for six days.
On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times.

- Joshua 6:14-15

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted your solemn decree that it surpasses your fame.

- Psalm 138:2

Not one of the above verses are from the New Testament.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Immanence refers to God's divinity.
Here Jesus stipulates a condition ie that he is in the hearts of those who follow him......it has it's mystical nature of course but it is still based on conditions.
God's Immanence is not based on conditions, even if you are not aware of God's immanence, He is still immanent.

Revelation 3

Jesus says...

"20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

In this example, both parties are aware of the "immenance" of the relationship...

 

[AspiringSoul]

Revelation 3

Jesus says...

"20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

In this example, both parties are aware of the "immenance" of the relationship...

Again this is dependent on a condition and whilst it is mystical it is not Absolute immanence

 

[AspiringSoul]

That is from the New Testament-- Ephesians 2. It doesn't apply here. Even, so, it was, again, not an arbitrary Grace, but one afforded to us through the Sacrifice-- that verse is taken out of its proper context.

Anyway, you and I were speaking specifically of the Patriarch's means to Salvation, prior to the Law, in the Old Testament-- and the Law (which never saved a soul) long preceded the Crucifixion.

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:3

But still, it's interesting to note that the Lamb [was] slain from the foundation of the world.
**

The lamb being slain symbolises the descent of the consciousness ie the macrocosm into the many microcosms hence the foundation of the world bit and also symbolises the spiritual ascent /return in the perspective as fulfilled through Jesus ie dying to ourselves.

As for the part I quoted concerning the patriarchs thats because Paul used Abraham as the example to build his entire argument on. The quote specifically proves grace comes before our faith so don't go crediting faith by itself without actually acknowledging God's grace beforehand.

For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,AD)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28063AD" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ,AE)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28063AE" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> overflow to the many! 16

 

[AspiringSoul]

Sorry the quote is all messed up loll

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@AspiringSoul -

"The lamb being slain symbolises the descent of the consciousness ie the macrocosm into the many microcosms hence the foundation of the world bit and also symbolises the spiritual ascent /return in the perspective as fulfilled through Jesus ie dying to ourselves."

I think it's worth saying that symbolism draws from context and the Bible provides its own context for those symbols.

Drawing in external contexts to interpret symbols is a powerful way of reinterpreting symbols to have new meanings for the enlightened. This, however, does not act as a true commentary on the original purpose of that symbology.

In a way, those of us who are spiritually aware find ourselves in a strange kind of propaganda war over the true meaning of symbols, each side claiming to have found the oldest, truest or most credible understanding.

As with all propaganda, misdirection is the name of the game.

 

[Kung Fu]

God is omnipresent, there's literally no need to pray toward any precise direction. They circled the city of Jericho for a specific purpose, not an object associated with Saturn worship because of traditions. We don't serve the same God, so using examples from the Bible doesn't help your case. My subjective feelings didn't lead me to believe that Muslims literally pray to Kaaba. I saw with my own eyes that Muslims pray before and bow down to an object, that's an objective truth. You can keep trying to twist my words but you can't change reality. My original point stands, I'm glad there's no statues or busts of Jesus because people would definitely worship it.

Your ignorance is astounding. Muslims circle the Kaaba for a specific purpose as well just as the Israelites circled Jericho and both do it exactly seven times. Of course, we don't serve God. The people that followed Abraham and the Israelites and the Muslims worship a the Most High where as you worship a man. I'm using the Bible to show you that you're a hypocrite. Everything you claimed that Muslims did in accordance with Hajj as idolatry the Israelites did as well and in abundance. David(pbuh) in the Torah bowed down to an "object", Moses(pbuh) and his followers prayed using rocks, Jacob(pbuh) also in Genesis 28:18 used a rock as a form of worship. Everything that Muslims do today has already been done by the prophets of old and their followers but as a typical Christian you pick and choose what you want to believe. I'm not twisting any words I'm using your own Bible to show you how much of an ignorant hypocrite you really are.

Like I have always said Christians with the exception of Unitarian Christians and the Christians that came literally right after Jesus(pbuh) don't worship the God that is mentioned in the Torah or in the Quran. You guys worship a man-god just like how the pagan Greeks and Romans worshiped. It's a tough pill to swallow but swallow it you shall. Deep down you know the truth.

 

[Kung Fu]

Not one of the above verses are from the New Testament.

Right, because the Bible doesn't consist of the OT. Cherry picking Christians that don't even know their own books. I feel sorry for you folks that atheist Bible scholars and Muslims know your text better than you do. Before you accuse others of doing certain acts perhaps you should read your own literature so you don't look like hypocrites.

 

[The Zone]

I always love it when people of other religions school others on theirs. The order could be in question but the Word remained the same.

 

[Kung Fu]

Wow Man, the ignorance is astounding.

They do shirk and are actually trying to claim people worship the Ka'bah.

Very sad indeed. May God guide them, all they discuss is Islam.

It's one of the very miracles of Islam. It has taken over their minds. No matter what they can't keep Islam out of their minds or mouth.

Everything that a Muslim does today has already been done to almost the exact T by the prophets and their people in the Torah. It's all there but yet they have the audacity to claim we worship the Kaaba when not one Muslim has ever claimed to worship the Kaaba. Uneducated Christians think Muslims are literally praying to the Kaaba when that's absolutely false.

 

[Kung Fu]

I always love it when people of other religions school others on theirs.

I do as well. Feels great. Especially when they feel like they got you stuck in a corner only for you to show them multiple verses from their own literature that goes in opposition of what they're claiming

 

[Haich]

How can you be insisting that we worship the Kabah if every Muslim on here has already stated otherwise?

Please bring any evidence to show Muslims worship the Kabah. I don't understand why Christians on here still take their understanding of Islam as truth, over what's being taught to them. Your understanding of Islam is so skewed because you choose to believe the narrative peddled to you by your church, religious leaders or the media.

We don't worship Mary or the Kabah. Many things you've attributed to Islam have been explained and rectified. You're allowed to disagree of course, if you think fasting is unnecessary or you don't believe Mohammed was the last prophet- Fine, that's your opinion but don't form an opinion based on your skewed interpretation of a faith practiced by a billion people.

So you know more about Islam than the average Muslim? Ok mate.

It seems some of you are content with your own version of Islam, since the true Islam is just too real for you to handle.

For others watching this thread, please don't listen to the Christian version of Islam. We do not worship anything other than God and we pray to him alone. We don't pray to the prophets, we don't pray to odd spirits floating inside of us, we pray directly to the creator just as he commanded those before him to do so.

People see the Kabah and are overcome with emotion so they kiss it and touch it. It's an emotional experience and a pilgrimage to Mecca is to some, a new start. It's a place where you go and after completing the pilgrimage your sins are erased. It's a beautiful and humbling experience to walk where Abraham pbuh walked...it's a chance to start again at life.

With regards to images, you won't see one of Mohammed because Muslims know as soon as an image is depicted, weak people will start worshipping and praying to it. Since the revelation of the final book, up until now, there's not a single portrait of the prophet pbuh. However there's loads of random busts and images of a white Jesus...hmm interesting to claim we worship the kabah when Christians have images of some European white Jesus in their homes or churches...

On top of this, you guy wear a cross or place one in your homes...why? Is this not a form of worship? In Islam nothing is put on display in homes and mosques, just prayer mats and prayers hung on the walls which in itself, is disputed amongst scholars.

 

[Haich]

The sources posted by passionate Islamic preachers like Floss tend to be from ridiculous websites which aren't a clear source of information for people who want to know more about islam

Genuine questions, please post here and someone will answer them.

 

[SpektaCoolAir]

Do Muslims Worship the Kabaa?
Question:

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Answer:

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow down to none other than the Creator of all that exists, the same Almighty God that all the prophets called people to Worship, the same Creator that Jesus Worshiped, and that is God Almighty Allah.




It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

“We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do..”

[Al-Qur’an 2:144]



1. Islam believes in fostering unity

For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.



2. Kaaba is at the Centre of the World Map

The Muslims were the first people to draw the map of the world. They drew the map with the south facing upwards and north downwards. The Kaaba was at the centre. Later, western cartographers drew the map upside down with the north facing upwards and south downwards. Yet, Alhamdullilah the Kaaba is at the centre of the world map.



3. Tawaaf around Kaaba for indicating one God

When the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they performtawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.



4. Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.



5. People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan

At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the adhaan or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

 

[Haich]

I'm glad there's no statues or busts of Jesus because people would definitely worship it.

???

They're everywhere!

 

[elsbet]

]

Sorry the quote is all messed up loll

Quite alright.

"The lamb being slain symbolises the descent of the consciousness ie the macrocosm into the many microcosms..."

That's what the New Age (nothing new about ancient paganism) folks believe.. a lot of them do, anyway.

So what was with the bit from the Quran? Parallel?