The Bible Is Very Edited

[JoChris]

Much had been borrowed from much older Sumerian writing; The Epic of Gilgamesh, etc.

MUCH?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Relationship_to_the_Bible

It actually gives support to the Young Earth Creationist viewpoint. Wasn't much time for the biblical accounts to be mythologized before that Epic was written.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Very sweeping statement there.
What is your definition of following the bible?

Second claim is incorrect. This is the core doctrine of Christianity.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Disproves Islam:
Shows God loves the world, including non-believers
God (the Father) gave His begotten Son (Jesus), therefore God has a Son
Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone will give eternal salvation

Your (self-proclaimed) prophet had no idea of what the bible meant because he was never born again.

What is your definition of following the bible?
this is a huge topic, there is plurality within the bible. For example gentiles obviously didn't follow the laws of Moses but i guess what you could call the Noahide laws. So when Christianity came about it began as a spiritual order (is a metaphysical structure) where Jesus is the head and he had his disciples and they had their own and so forth...with the idea being that everyone is then linked to Jesus through these intermediataries and finally Jesus is linked to God.
To be a christian is to accept the most basic truth of the original Abrahimic faith which is, core monotheism, whilst also becoming part of the spiritual order of Christ.
"You are a priest forever after the Order of Melkezedek"
the mere mention of the order of Melkezedek means there would have been spiritual order's in the past.
The Nazerenes had spiritual orders
the Essences had spiritual orders.
The pharisees had spiritual order.
however none of them could rival the one centered around Jesus Christ.
The dilemna that sprang forth after Jesus was when the gospel was taught to gentiles. Prior to this, the followers of Jesus did follow the laws of Moses and there was no problem with that, neither from Jesus (who told people to follow the commandments) or anyone else.
The only reason the pauline teachings became necessary was to make the transition from a jewish spiritual order to a universal spiritual order.
So in a way Paul had to make necessary arguments to make that transition as simple as it could be.
I do not even disagree with the things he said. They do however rely on an idea of the spiritual order itself being intact and perfect, ino rder for God's grace to come.

what you have to understand is, at one point God saw fit to create the law of Moses...was this a backward step when the partriarchs were once under 'grace'?
what actually happened was the Israelite lived in Egypt, became influenced by Egyptian mythologies sand barely even knew God. Nor were they on a high enough spiritual level to just return to that previous state of 'grace' the patriarchs were under. so they lived under the law of God until Jesus came.
That's the gist of it.

So think of Christianity as being similar to the state of the patriarchs...
did Christians lose the way, the way the israelites lost the way?
straight up truth, they did...it became the roman religion where they introduced pagan concepts and that also led to the trinitarian doctrine.

The trinitarian doctrine is clearly wrong and there is no defending it because it takes mystical ideas and turns them theoretical.

look it's like this quote
St Augustine
Godhead is the Lover, the Beloved, and the Loving
This is built on the idea that God is love.
However God's love is His Immanent quality and this mystical perspective is not meant to form theological beliefs.
If you take this literally then, it leads to clear polythiesm
However taken mystically, it unites us with God.
With God alone being the center of our focus

The true nature of the underlying themes ie the Father, Son and holy spirit do connect with this immanent aspect of God but to make a trintiarian doctrine from that was wrong on every level. It destroyed the religion and it also led to widespread polythiesm.
even if you don't beleive in the 'mother of God' stuff you still believe Jesus himself is fully God...co-equal with God the Father based on your acceptance of the doctrine.
But obviouslyyyyy Jesus himself said otherwise various times and that should have been clear enough.

Fact is you have made a choice and put this doctrine ahead of the words of Jesus therefore you do not belong to him.
It is the same reason why this happens

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

think this one through for a moment, seriously
would Jesus reject you because you sin? even though the NT teachings made it clear that we all sin and Jesus came to tke our sins?
so how could he reject you merely for sin?
his rejection is not about carnal sin but about wrong belief..and many saying 'lord lord' ie as you christians do...but then he rejects them and says
'i never knew you'
ie they beleived in him
but they did not belong to him
what prevented them from becoming part of the spiritual order?
it is because they had wrong belief.

in my religion, being true to the original text and beliefs is paramount to being 'true muslims'
why would i follow a theological doctrine if it appeared 3 centuries later?

 

[Kung Fu]

Yes, that makes sense. I'm so scared of your ignorant theory that I brought it up myself.

You call it an ignorant theory yet can't provide one Greek manuscript prior to the 15th century that shows the Comma Johanneum. Please, Thunderian enlighten me and all the other Bible scholars, historians, and academics where they went wrong lol?

 

[Violette]

Quality over quantity. I've read Eusebius and other Christian writers. Many of them are simply repetitious, always invoking quotes from the scriptures, inserting them whenever possible. It muddles the alleged history and makes reading a chore. Origen's writings are at least bearable.

Plus, one must also take into account the innumerable losses of ancient literature (i.e. Library of Alexandria), that may or may not have been caused by proto-Christianity. Many works mentioned by the ancient writers are long gone or only exist in fragments.

Caesar has a surviving bust while there isn't even a reliable description of Jesus' appearance or features. The ancient Greeks/Romans certainly had a good grasp of how to transmit a person's memory to posterity.

That isn't to say that Jesus never existed. I think some people take their hostility too far in that regard. As for me, I am only against the myths that have been built around Jesus.

I honestly think it's a good thing there's no bust of Jesus. People would definitely worship it. Look at the Kaaba in Islam. Muslims swear up and down that idol worship is forbidden and yet they bow, kiss, and pray before an object that isn't God.

 

[Kung Fu]

I honestly think it's a good thing there's no bust of Jesus. People would definitely worship it. Look at the Kaaba in Islam. Muslims swear up and down that idol worship is forbidden and yet they bow, kiss, and pray before an object that isn't God.

You just can't keep Islam's name out of your mouth even when it's a thread that has nothing to do with Islam lol.

Show me where in the Quran or in the hadiths that indicate that Muslims should worship the Kaaba or anything that isn't the Most High?

 

[Violette]

Even if it was 100% authentic....you Christians do not follow it.

The center of your belief ie the trinitarian doctrine tells you the son and holy spirit are fully God and co-equals with the Father
Ironically you consider Catholics 'pagan' because their polythiesm is a little bit more mystical than your version.

Yes we do. The center of our belief is that Jesus is our Lord and Savior who died and rose again. The trinity isn't polytheistic lol muslims are the only group of people that I've encountered that hold so strongly to this belief . There's a clear difference between Christianity and Ancient Greece which was actually polytheistic. Christianity is most importantly about our relationship with God. The focus isn't on tradition and rituals.

 

[Kung Fu]

Yes we do. The center of our belief is that Jesus is our Lord and Savior who died and rose again. The trinity isn't polytheistic lol muslims are the only group of people that I've encountered that hold so strongly to this belief .

Absolutely incorrect. practicing Jews and atheists see 3 gods not 1 (Under Jewish literature through Maimonides Jews can pray in mosques but they're forbidden to even go near a church). It's a logical and numbers thing nothing else. The only reason it seems like it's a Muslim only problem is because the forums on here consist mainly of Christians and Muslims. No matter how you spin it you worship 3 gods. One is the true God, one is a man, and the other is some ghost lol.

 

[Violette]

You just can't keep Islam's name out of your mouth even when it's a thread that has nothing to do with Islam lol.

Show me where in the Quran or in the hadiths that indicate that Muslims should worship the Kaaba or anything that isn't the Most High?

This thread was posted in the religion and spirituality category, anything religious or spiritual can be discussed. I made a reference to Ancient Greece too but I don't think Zeus minds Idolatry is forbidden in Islam as far as I'm aware but muslims still worship the kaaba anyway even if they try to deny it.

 

[Kung Fu]

This thread was posted in the religion and spirituality category, anything religious or spiritual can be discussed. I made a reference to Ancient Greece too but I don't think Zeus minds Idolatry is forbidden in Islam as far as I'm aware but muslims still worship the kaaba anyway even if they try to deny it.

You made a claim and now you have to prove it. Show me where in the Quran or the hadith that tells us Muslims that we must worship the Kaaba and or black stone? Show me any prayer that we Muslims perform that shows us stating that the Kaaba and the black stone is what we worship?

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Violette
no matter how you approach this the fact is the creed was formulated 250-300 years after Jesus Christ.
However you try to link the creed to the core religious texts and to Jesus Christ..fact is if it was meant to be a true belief it would have been given in the exact same format either by Jesus or the apostles.
Since it wasn't, then you have a problem.

 

[Violette]

Just to add my two cents here. Why was the book of Enoch not included in the Bible?

I wondered about this too, I just recently downloaded it. I haven't researched it enough to give an answer in my own words but this an explanation I found from gotquestions.org, hope this helps:
"The Book of Enoch is any of several pseudepigraphal (falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded) works that attribute themselves to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah; that is, Enoch son of Jared (Genesis 5:18). Enoch is also one of the two people in the Bible taken up to heaven without dying (the other being Elijah), as the Bible says "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:24; see also Hebrews 11:5). Most commonly, the phrase "Book of Enoch" refers to 1 Enoch, which is wholly extant only in the Ethiopic language.

The biblical book of Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch in verses 14-15, “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: ‘See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’” But this does not mean the Book of Enoch is inspired by God and should be in the Bible.

Jude’s quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides’ writings. The same is true with Jude, verses 14-15. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch does not indicate the entire Book of Enoch is inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied – or the Bible would not attribute it to him, “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men…” (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch.

We should treat the Book of Enoch (and the other books like it) in the same manner we do the other Apocryphal writings. Some of what the Apocrypha says is true and correct, but at the same time, much of it is false and historically inaccurate. If you read these books, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God."

 

[Kung Fu]

Some of what the Apocrypha says is true and correct, but at the same time, much of it is false and historically inaccurate. If you read these books, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God."

You should apply this same logic to the New Testament and all it's proven forgeries (interpolations) by scholars thanks to the manuscripts we have today.

 

[Violette]

You made a claim and now you have to prove. Show me where in the Quran or the hadith that tells us Muslims that we must worship the Kaaba and or black stone? Show me any prayer that we Muslims perform that shows us stating that the Kaaba and the black stone is what we worship?

You seem confused. I said Islam FORBIDS idolatry but Muslims physically and spiritually practice idolatry when they bow to, pray before, and sometimes kiss an object that isn't God.

 

[Kung Fu]

You seem confused. I said Islam FORBIDS idolatry but Muslims physically and spiritually practice idolatry when they bow to, pray before, and sometimes kiss an object that isn't God.

I think you're confused. Instead of making blanket statements have you ever studied on why Muslims pray towards the way they do or why they circle the Kaaba 7 times?

They're not bowing down towards the Kaaba but they pray towards that direction to give the Muslims a sense of unity. The Kaaba was in a sense the first mosque which Muslims believed was built by Abraham(pbuh) and Ishmael TO WORSHIP THE MOST HIGH. The black stone is just a starting point to start the circling seven times. Muhammad(pbuh) and his companions have stated numerous times that the Kaaba and the black stone are just that stones. People kiss it because they get emotional just like how a son would kiss his mom. Not all Muslims kiss it. It's not rocket science. There is hadith that states that a Muslim life is more important than the Kaaba and the black stone and so if Muslims really were worshiping what you claim they are then they're doing a pretty bad job of it.

 

[Violette]

I think you're confused. Instead of making blanket statements have you ever studied on why Muslims pray towards the way they do or why they circle the Kaaba 7 times?

They're not bowing down towards the Kaaba but they pray towards that direction to give the Muslims a sense of unity. The Kaaba was in a sense the first mosque which Muslims believed was built by Abraham(pbuh) and Ishmael TO WORSHIP THE MOST HIGH. The black stone is just a starting point to start the circling seven times. Muhammad(pbuh) and his companions have stated numerous times that the Kaaba and the black stone are just that stones. People kiss it because they get emotional just like how a son would kiss his mom. Not all Muslims kiss it. It's not rocket science.

I'm unified with the body of Christ but you'll never catch me bowing down to anything. This is exactly why I used the Kaaba as an example of why I'm glad there is no bust of Jesus. I understand why it's highly revered in your religion because of its history but you guys are letting idolatry taint your admiration. You can be unified without following the same rituals. You guys do these things because it's tradition created by men. You may be taught that you're just praying in the same direction but it's clear that you're bowing down to an object, it's not rocket science. Black cubes are symbolic for Saturn worship btw. It's interesting that you walk around it in circles 7x like rings.....Saturn has 7 groups of rings.

 

[floss]

@Violette
All these people bowing down to statue but denied being an idolatry. And what does all idolatry have in common? Work-base salvation, DING!
Islam is a pagan religion, bowing down and kissing idol is what make them feel spiritual.

 

[Kung Fu]

I'm unified with the body of Christ but you'll never catch me bowing down to anything. This is exactly why I used the Kaaba as an example of why I'm glad there is no bust of Jesus. I understand why it's highly revered in your religion because of its history but you guys are letting idolatry taint your admiration. You can be unified without following the same rituals. You guys do these things because it's tradition created by men. You may be taught that you're just praying in the same direction but it's clear that you're bowing down to an object, it's not rocket science. Black cubes are symbolic for Saturn worship btw. It's interesting that you walk around it in circles 7x like rings.....Saturn has 7 groups of rings.

Let me put this to rest and educate you on your own religion which you truly have no idea about because if you did you wouldn't be tossing these uneducated statements ever after I have just told you that the Kaaba and the black stone are only a focal point in the direction Muslims face when they pray to the MOST HIGH. It's only your subjective feelings and current anti-Islamic beliefs that lead you to believe that Muslims pray to the Kaaba/black stone instead of the reality, which every Muslim will tell you is that the Kaaba is only there to be the point in which people that believe in the Most High pray towards. It's as simple as that. You believing otherwise makes your ignorant of your own religion or you're flat out just trolling.

When Jacob got up early the next morning, he took the rock that he had used for a pillow and stood it up for a place of worship. Then he poured olive oil on the rock to dedicate it to God

- Genesis 28:18

Then Moses wrote down what the Lord had said. The next morning Moses got up early. He built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up a large stone for each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

- Exodus 24:4

On the second day they marched around the city once and returned to the camp. They did this for six days.
On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times.

- Joshua 6:14-15

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted your solemn decree that it surpasses your fame.

- Psalm 138:2

 

[grateful servant]

Says the guy with a cross and the bloody defiled person he claims is his God on his avatar, oh the irony .

Thank God I do not worship anyone or anything but Him Alone. God is One @floss. No partners no sons no co-equals or co-eternals no 3 persons or 3 beings. He is Almighty, All Powerful, Self Sufficient, All Seeing, All Hearing, and Ever Living Who does not and will not die. He is Irresistable and His Knowledge encompasses all things. Nothing escapes His Grasp.

 

[floss]

do I bow down to the cross? pray toward the cross? dance around the cross? kiss the cross? have a cross tattoo?
short answer: no
long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

keep kissing and praying to the game cube...the game cube god might save you.

muslims, jews, and catholics has so many things in common...

 

[elsbet]

What is your definition of following the bible?
this is a huge topic, there is plurality within the bible. For example gentiles obviously didn't follow the laws of Moses but i guess what you could call the Noahide laws. So when Christianity came about it began as a spiritual order (is a metaphysical structure) where Jesus is the head and he had his disciples and they had their own and so forth...with the idea being that everyone is then linked to Jesus through these intermediataries and finally Jesus is linked to God.
To be a christian is to accept the most basic truth of the original Abrahimic faith which is, core monotheism, whilst also becoming part of the spiritual order of Christ.
"You are a priest forever after the Order of Melkezedek"
the mere mention of the order of Melkezedek means there would have been spiritual order's in the past.
The Nazerenes had spiritual orders
the Essences had spiritual orders.
The pharisees had spiritual order.
however none of them could rival the one centered around Jesus Christ.
The dilemna that sprang forth after Jesus was when the gospel was taught to gentiles. Prior to this, the followers of Jesus did follow the laws of Moses and there was no problem with that, neither from Jesus (who told people to follow the commandments) or anyone else.
The only reason the pauline teachings became necessary was to make the transition from a jewish spiritual order to a universal spiritual order.
So in a way Paul had to make necessary arguments to make that transition as simple as it could be.
I do not even disagree with the things he said. They do however rely on an idea of the spiritual order itself being intact and perfect, ino rder for God's grace to come.

what you have to understand is, at one point God saw fit to create the law of Moses...was this a backward step when the partriarchs were once under 'grace'?
what actually happened was the Israelite lived in Egypt, became influenced by Egyptian mythologies sand barely even knew God. Nor were they on a high enough spiritual level to just return to that previous state of 'grace' the patriarchs were under. so they lived under the law of God until Jesus came.
That's the gist of it.

So think of Christianity as being similar to the state of the patriarchs...
did Christians lose the way, the way the israelites lost the way?
straight up truth, they did...it became the roman religion where they introduced pagan concepts and that also led to the trinitarian doctrine.

The trinitarian doctrine is clearly wrong and there is no defending it because it takes mystical ideas and turns them theoretical.

look it's like this quote
St Augustine
Godhead is the Lover, the Beloved, and the Loving
This is built on the idea that God is love.
However God's love is His Immanent quality and this mystical perspective is not meant to form theological beliefs.
If you take this literally then, it leads to clear polythiesm
However taken mystically, it unites us with God.
With God alone being the center of our focus

The true nature of the underlying themes ie the Father, Son and holy spirit do connect with this immanent aspect of God but to make a trintiarian doctrine from that was wrong on every level. It destroyed the religion and it also led to widespread polythiesm.
even if you don't beleive in the 'mother of God' stuff you still believe Jesus himself is fully God...co-equal with God the Father based on your acceptance of the doctrine.
But obviouslyyyyy Jesus himself said otherwise various times and that should have been clear enough.

Fact is you have made a choice and put this doctrine ahead of the words of Jesus therefore you do not belong to him.
It is the same reason why this happens

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

think this one through for a moment, seriously
would Jesus reject you because you sin? even though the NT teachings made it clear that we all sin and Jesus came to tke our sins?
so how could he reject you merely for sin?
his rejection is not about carnal sin but about wrong belief..and many saying 'lord lord' ie as you christians do...but then he rejects them and says
'i never knew you'
ie they beleived in him
but they did not belong to him
what prevented them from becoming part of the spiritual order?
it is because they had wrong belief.

in my religion, being true to the original text and beliefs is paramount to being 'true muslims'
why would i follow a theological doctrine if it appeared 3 centuries later?

What is the "state of grace of the patriarchs?"