The best human being

[Bacsi]

Hi dear friends at VC. How's your day going, learning lots about conspiracy theories? Anyways. My subject is as follows.

I've lived a longer part of my life, I think, and so that gives me some ground to share my observations. I've studied and lived in several countries, can speak serveral languages fluently, worked in more than one professional fields. You know, from observing religious or non-religious people, to date the best human being I've ever had the privilege to know is a Muslim man. I don't think any one person ever touched my heart and influenced me so deeply as this wonderful person.

Please, understand that I've met really special and wonderful people representing all kinds of worldviews, religious or not. However, none of them come close to the qualities and purity of heart of this Muslim. This forever changed my attitude towards Islam, and towards humanity in general. Getting to know him caused me to be so much embarrassed in myself and try and get better. Without me realizing, he became an example of behavior as a professional, father, son, husband, friend, human being...

Almost all of my immediate and extended family converted to Islam in the past 25-30 years since the break-up of the USSR (I'm from Kazakhstan) after being in other religions or being agnostics/atheists. I will attest that the change of character in them has been absolutely unbelievable, totally remarkable. I've witnessed it with my own eyes. They turned into loving, gracious, productive, friendly, peaceful, charitable, strong individuals with a clear goal and positive outlook in life, with a steel-hard structure to all they say or do. They became good workers, fathers, sisters, friends, citizens. Simply wonderful human beings. Even the way they look changed. Glowing with a warm smile. And I don't want to tell you in graphic details how awful and destructive they were to themselves and people around in the past, deep in wrong actions, hate and confusion.

I can't say the same thing of the close family or friends who accepted some other ideas. For example, as a rule, I find Christians to be hypocritical and arrogant. One became a devout Hindu and stopped caring about his family on practical level. There are Buddhists, New Age, agnostics, atheists, etc etc.

Even though I'm not a Muslim and perhaps never will be one for multiple reasons, I can't help but note the power of this beautiful faith. They're doing something right, this is for sure. One thing I love about the Quran is that it forbids interest on loans. In the context of VC, it's the anti-thesis of the modern Luciferian freemasonic rule of the financial slavery in the world. No other religion even makes it an issue or, instead, prescribe banking interest as a means of domination.

So I predict that Islam is the future and only hope of humanity. I see no other faith or ideology that comes near in its power to transform and unite people on a deep level.

Your experience? Your thoughts?

P.S. Disclamer - this is my personal experience and opinion as of today. I do not in any way want to imply that it's the absolute and final truth.

 

[DesertRose]

Please, understand that I've met really special and wonderful people representing all kinds of worldviews, religious or not. However, none of them come close to the qualities and purity of heart of this Muslim. This forever changed my attitude towards Islam, but towards humanity in general. Getting to know him caused me to be so much embarrassed in myself and try and get better. Without me realizing, he became an example of behavior as a professional, father, son, husband, friend, human being...

Your experience? Your thoughts?

What a wonderful window into your life Bacsi. Thank you.
Btw you write well.
TBH at times a brief thought flashes through my mind that I am not suited to a world increasingly filled with different groups some are falling for the promoted satanic philosophies and lifestyles.
Others who are religious but are being siren called to fight religiously against the other (crusaders versus Isis etc)
Still others who are becoming steeped in materialism and following their desires at the expense of innocents through fraud, and other crimes.
I think I would have fit in a epoch when right conduct was promoted and admired and those who sow corruption were held accountable.
However, who am I to question the wisdom of God in placing me in this time and age.?
I would say that there are good and bad people in every group.
I am glad however that Islam through the Quran mandates belief plus good deeds. That it calls for sincerity and correct intention and that any action we partake in must be for His sake regardless of who likes us or not and regardless of what is at stake.
Take Care.

​

Say, ‘Take action! Allah will see your action – as will His Messenger and the believers – and then you will be returned to Him Who knows what is hidden and what is seen, and He will tell you what you have been doing.} (At-Tawbah 9:105)​

{O Messengers! Eat good things and do good deeds: I am well aware of what you do. This Community of yours is one community and I am your Lord, so be mindful of me.} (Al-Mu’minun 23:51-52)​

​

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Why were there not, among the generations before you, persons possessed of balanced good sense, prohibiting (men) from mischief in the earth - except a few among them whom We saved (from harm)? But the wrong-doers pursued the enjoyment of the good things of life which were given them, and persisted in sin. (Surah Hud, 116)

edit: I think some of the best people you meet will be practicing Muslims and some of the worst people you meet were born to Muslim parents but they are really hypocrites. This is the advice we are given.​

quran 18:28

And keep yourself patient [by being] with those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, seeking His countenance. And let not your eyes pass beyond them, desiring adornments of the worldly life, and do not obey one whose heart We have made heedless of Our remembrance and who follows his desire and whose affair is ever [in] neglect.

Apologies I have font issues....​

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[Bacsi]

What a wonderful window into your life Bacsi. Thank you.
Btw you write well.
TBH at times a brief thought flashes through my mind that I am not suited to a world increasingly filled with different groups some are falling for the promoted satanic philosophies and lifestyles.
Others who are religious but are being siren called to fight religiously against the other (crusaders versus Isis etc)
Still others who are becoming steeped in materialism and following their desires at the expense of innocents through fraud, and other crimes.
I think I would have fit in a epoch were people when right conduct was promoted and admired and those who sow corruption were held accountable.
However, who am I to question the wisdom of God in placing me in this time and age.?
I would say that there are good and bad people in every group.
I am glad however that Islam through the Quran mandates belief plus good deeds. That it calls for sincerity and correct intention and that any action we partake in must be for His sake regardless of who likes us or not and regardless of what is at stake.
Take Care.

​

Say, ‘Take action! Allah will see your action – as will His Messenger and the believers – and then you will be returned to Him Who knows what is hidden and what is seen, and He will tell you what you have been doing.} (At-Tawbah 9:105)​

{O Messengers! Eat good things and do good deeds: I am well aware of what you do. This Community of yours is one community and I am your Lord, so be mindful of me.} (Al-Mu’minun 23:51-52)​

​

​

Why were there not, among the generations before you, persons possessed of balanced good sense, prohibiting (men) from mischief in the earth - except a few among them whom We saved (from harm)? But the wrong-doers pursued the enjoyment of the good things of life which were given them, and persisted in sin. (Surah Hud, 116)

edit: I think some of the best people you meet will be practicing Muslims and some of the worst people you meet were born to Muslim parents but they are really hypocrites. This is the advice we are given.​

quran 18:28

And keep yourself patient [by being] with those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, seeking His countenance. And let not your eyes pass beyond them, desiring adornments of the worldly life, and do not obey one whose heart We have made heedless of Our remembrance and who follows his desire and whose affair is ever [in] neglect.

Apologies I have font issues....​

Faith and good works. It's important. Balance and wisdom instead of blind zeal. Sounds very good and mature. Thank you for your response and yes, good and bad in any group. I understand the dividing line of practicing and nominal adherence in any religion.

In any case, studying sociology, philosophy and history as a hobby, I see power of convictions as the primary factor to shape thinking and actions of people. So I try and look and understand how certain things work in real life and why others don't. Then of course I consider the issues of veracity of ideas, this being a very personal question not easily shared with the general public. I'm in a continuous search.

 

[polymoog]

So I predict that Islam is the future and only hope of humanity. I see no other faith or ideology that comes near in its power to transform and unite people on a deep level.

Your experience? Your thoughts?

the future is mankind with a direct link to the godsource/higher power, without any religious dogma and no middle-men interpreting the messages for you. spirituality without religious mind control is the way.

 

[JoChris]

Hi dear friends at VC. How's your day going, learning lots about conspiracy theories? Anyways. My subject is as follows.

I've lived a longer part of my life, I think, and so that gives me some ground to share my observations. I've studied and lived in several countries, can speak serveral languages fluently, worked in more than one professional fields. You know, from observing religious or non-religious people, to date the best human being I've ever had the privilege to know is a Muslim man. I don't think any one person ever touched my heart and influenced me so deeply as this wonderful person.

Please, understand that I've met really special and wonderful people representing all kinds of worldviews, religious or not. However, none of them come close to the qualities and purity of heart of this Muslim. This forever changed my attitude towards Islam, and towards humanity in general. Getting to know him caused me to be so much embarrassed in myself and try and get better. Without me realizing, he became an example of behavior as a professional, father, son, husband, friend, human being...

Almost all of my immediate and extended family converted to Islam in the past 25-30 years since the break-up of the USSR (I'm from Kazakhstan) after being in other religions or being agnostics/atheists. I will attest that the change of character in them has been absolutely unbelievable, totally remarkable. I've witnessed it with my own eyes. They turned into loving, gracious, productive, friendly, peaceful, charitable, strong individuals with a clear goal and positive outlook in life, with a steel-hard structure to all they say or do. They became good workers, fathers, sisters, friends, citizens. Simply wonderful human beings. Even the way they look changed. Glowing with a warm smile. And I don't want to tell you in graphic details how awful and destructive they were to themselves and people around in the past, deep in wrong actions, hate and confusion.

I can't say the same thing of the close family or friends who accepted some other ideas. For example, as a rule, I find Christians to be hypocritical and arrogant. One became a devout Hindu and stopped caring about his family on practical level. There are Buddhists, New Age, agnostics, atheists, etc etc.

Even though I'm not a Muslim and perhaps never will be one for multiple reasons, I can't help but note the power of this beautiful faith. They're doing something right, this is for sure. One thing I love about the Quran is that it forbids interest on loans. In the context of VC, it's the anti-thesis of the modern Luciferian freemasonic rule of the financial slavery in the world. No other religion even makes it an issue or, instead, prescribe banking interest as a means of domination.

So I predict that Islam is the future and only hope of humanity. I see no other faith or ideology that comes near in its power to transform and unite people on a deep level.

Your experience? Your thoughts?

P.S. Disclamer - this is my personal experience and opinion as of today. I do not in any way want to imply that it's the absolute and final truth.

To my understanding if Muslims only follow Muhammad's moral code teachings *before he became a warrior* they can be very nice people and therefore much better in conduct than many people. I will stop there.

 

[AspiringSoul]

To my understanding if Muslims only follow Muhammad's moral code teachings *before he became a warrior* they can be very nice people and therefore much better in conduct than many people. I will stop there.

Ideallt, Islam is about balance
We believe in being passive and active.
Allah is Trancendence and He is immanent.

Mohammed saw was passive in Mecca then he migrated /was forced out of Mecca and became active in madina. This you regard as wrong.
Yet you simultaneously believe Jesus was passive ..and that he has left the world...will return...active.
You believe in a forced theocracy where the disbelievers will be thrown into fire.

"But we don't practice it"
Historically Christians have to some level for right or wrong.

 

[Bacsi]

the future is mankind with a direct link to the godsource/higher power, without any religious dogma and no middle-men interpreting the messages for you. spirituality without religious mind control is the way.

It's what I stand on, too. However, individualistic ideologies have always lost to unifying ones.

 

[Bacsi]

To my understanding if Muslims only follow Muhammad's moral code teachings *before he became a warrior* they can be very nice people and therefore much better in conduct than many people. I will stop there.

All religions evolve in time. There's so much violence it the Bible, for example, and it was followed and is still is. However, we see the evolution of religions based on the Bible over the centuries.

 

[JoChris]

All religions evolve in time. There's so much violence it the Bible, for example, and it was followed and is still is. However, we see the evolution of religions based on the Bible over the centuries.

If you reject the bible, why aren't you rejecting Islam as well?
It seems to claim to be in agreement with the bible, especially the Old Testament laws.

 

[SkepticCat]

Great post, but I absolutely disagree that this is about Islam. I would like to quote a few passages from the Bible (old/new testaments)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (Matthew 15:8)

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: (Isaiah 29:13)

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This, I believe, is key: Belief in heart. Not in intellect, and certainly not with just the mouth. I believe God values the intents of the heart above all else.

Does this make Islam the best religion in the world? Because you met one man whose behavior was admirable - who happened to be a Muslim - and seeing him had a great positive effect on your family? No, I don't think so. I honestly think that point of view is naive. You can find fantastic people who are Christians, Buddhists, Shintoists or whatever else, as well. Radiant people like you describe are clearly in contact with something special, with Truth - but the question is always: Rather than just partial Truth, what is ultimate Truth?



This quote (and image) is attributed to Blavatsky. Whatever one thinks of her it seems self-evident to me what she said here must necessarily be correct: Truth is the highest authority since, by definition, it is in complete accord with what is correct, or, narrowed down, simply: what is.

Is Islam in complete accordance with ultimate Truth, then? I don't think so. There are many aspects of Islam which resonate, that are in alignment with Truth. Unfortunately, as I perceive that religion, it is mixed with many lies and deception and therefore ultimately is not the Truth.

There's a passage in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 I regard as absolutely crucial when it comes to discernment:

Prove [test] all things; hold fast that which is good.

As you can see, this is basically saying the exact same thing Blavatsky wrote of in the cited quote above: You have to test it, find out whether it is the Truth.

When I test the religion of Islam I find that it does not resonate with ultimate truth. Hence, I am not a Muslim. This does not, however, in any way mean that I hold some black-and-white, generalized view such as 'Islam is bad, therefore all Muslims are bad people' - no. Such is obviously not the case. From an intellectual standpoint, however, it seems obvious to me that Islam is a classic case of the typical scheme of deception where some truth is presented to suck people in, but it is then mixed with lies to hold them in bondage. I conclude that Muslims - or any other religious denomination - can be good, even great people, but that does not make Islam a good religion. People are good to whatever extent they operate in accordance with ultimate truth itself, not with their belief system.

You have to make these kinds of distinctions and understand the level of deception played out against us if you want to find ultimate truth - there's a lot invested into deceiving people (it's what this world and the forces of evil operating it are all about).

Islam is in many ways a hostile, aggressive, warlike, exclusivist religion. And that is definitely not in accordance with Truth. Compare:

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (5:51)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

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Here, the Muslims would have you believe that the same almighty God who loves Humanity so much that He was willing to incarnate to suffer a horrific death on the cross to save them would also encourage the 'true believers' to fiercely discriminate against other human beings having fallen under the 'Satanic deceptions' of Christianity and Judaism, respectively, and that the Muslim 'true believers' should avoid 'allying' with them, ie. Muslims here (including yourself) probably shouldn't even be talking to non-Muslims on this forum because we are 'wrongdoers' and ultimately in allegiance with Satan.

I have no idea why anybody would want to subscribe to such a religion that says those things, but it must be up to each individual to find a belief system that resonates. All I will say is, be careful and read the fine print and understand exactly what it is you are presenting as 'glorious truth'.

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You can examine a further comparison between Islam and Christianity on this Islam-critical website: https://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Standing back from the question of "which is the best religion", it begs the questions -

What does that even mean?
What is the function of faith?
Is best the one the one that makes people behave in a way which most other people prefer?
Is objective "truth" important or does the existential notion of "your truth" followed by agreeable actions the standard by which this question of "best" is to judged?

Is Christianity a "religion" in the same sense as other religions - I guess it depends how you define it but I would say "no" and try to explain why...

 

[Serveto]

... Islam is in many ways a hostile, aggressive, warlike, exclusivist religion. And that is definitely not in accordance with Truth. Compare:

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (5:51)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) ...

For what it is worth, and I speak anecdotally as someone who has lived and worked in the Middle East and thus am privileged to have a lot of Muslim friends (and they are not breaking Quranic commandments to be my friend {click here}), the Quranic verse you quote here is not an absolute prohibition against friendship between Muslims and Christians. It can be counterbalanced by a few others, such as, for instance:

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
Quran 5:82

"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration."
Quran 3:113​

As for not taking Christians as "friends and protectors," sometimes called political allies, a good example of what happened when Muslims did take at least nominally Christian Great Britain as a friend and protector was when, after T.E. Lawrence, following Britain's well-practiced policy of "divide et impera," or divide and conquer, had managed to break then-fledgling Saudi Arabia away from the declining Ottoman Empire, Britain, by way of Balfour and Lord Rothschild, handed Jews at least a section of Palestine, in the Balfour Declaration, but was secretly double-crossing Muslim Arab aspirations by means of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and the consequences of that are with us still.

With that said, and again speaking only politically, if Great Britain be an example of Christian principles in operation, and I know that's a stretch, it may well be said that "God so loved the world," as you quote, but He is also, apparently, working to "make His enemies his footstool."

 

[DesertRose]

I think when Christianity crossed into Europe it transformed from an essentially peaceful faith within peaceful communities to a warlike faith. Likewise with the Jewish faith it is the European Jews that pushed forth a Zionist mandate, unfortunately. Muslims have no problem with befriending those who do not plot and fight against us.

“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”[al-Mumtahinah 60:8]

Islam is in many ways a hostile, aggressive, warlike, exclusivist religion. And that is definitely not in accordance with Truth. Compare:

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allaah; but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:186]


Re-posted: Here is a further explanation regarding which Christians and which Jews we are being warned against.
Does the Quran forbid Friendship Alliance with All Jews and Christens by Sheikh Imran Hosein

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

In regards to this I found you an article:

Is Faith Enough to Be Saved in Islam?
"Thank you for your question and for contacting Ask About Islam.

What the Christian you were talking to means by “the good news contained in the teachings of the Bible” is that he believes he has already been saved in advance through faith in Jesus.

So he asks: Why should I go for “the hard news” in the Quranthat demands a lot of good work on the part of the believer to enter Heaven?

In other words, his claim is that he is guaranteed salvation and Heaven, if he simply believes in God the Son who suffered on the cross for all the sins he has committed.

And his question to Muslims is whether they have any such guarantee from God.

And the obvious answer is: No, not at all.

We can never be sure of God granting us eternal happiness. It is God’s privilege to grant it or deny it; and what we can do is just work for it and pray for it.

As the Christian claims to be guaranteed salvation, he believes that he is free from any worry concerning good works.

One important point to note here is that the author of the Christian emphasis on ‘faith’ in derogation of ‘works’ is St Paul – the self-styled “Apostle to the Gentiles”, and not Jesus.

Paul came first as a persecutor of Christians soon after Prophet Jesus’ disappearance from the earth. He infiltrated the ranks of Jesus’ followers and taught them a doctrine that opposed Jesus on several fronts.

He replaced Jesus’ teaching of selfless universal compassionate action with a selfish teaching of desire to gain a “free gift” of salvation based only on faith, without any behavioral requirement or obedience to law.

The Teachings of Jesus
Prophet Jesus’ teachings stress on works rooted in a change of spiritual growth within the person.

But supporters of Paul claim that righteousness on the part of weak humans carries no weight in gaining salvation. By accepting this Pauline teaching, Christians effectively contradict Jesus.

When asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the Law was, Jesus answered (as reported in Matthew 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) quoting from the Old Testament, that the greatest law was to love God (see Deuteronomy 6:5) and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself (see Leviticus 18:19).

In Luke, the lawyer specifically asks what is necessary for eternal life (verse 25) and after Jesus mentions the two great commandments, he says “This do and you will live” (verse 28), showing clearly that salvation is linked to deeds or actions, no matter how important faith might be as a motivating factor.

In his last public teaching, (see Matthew 25:31-45) Jesus describes the final judgment as being based solely on behavioral responses to internalized compassion.

And Jesus makes it very clear that those who express compassion in behavioral action will be saved, and those who do not, will not be saved. There is no other qualification.

In the whole of the Bible, we find none except Paul stating that salvation can occur with faith alone. All the Gospels are full of verses requiring good works and not even once give any statement remotely similar to Paul’s that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur “apart from” works or deeds.

The foregoing means that the Pauline emphasis on faith apart from works is really anti-Christian in the sense that it contradicts Christ’s teaching.

The Muslim Answer
Indeed, Prophet Jesus’ teaching of faith and good works is quite in agreement with the Quranic position.

We read in the Quran what means:

{As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed.} (Al-Kahf 18:30)​

{For those who believe and work deeds of righteousness is a reward that will never fail.}(Fussilat 41:8)​

{Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.} (Al-Bayyinah 98:7)​

As for Christians, there are differing views about salvation. Evangelical, Fundamentalist or Calvinistic Protestants take a hardline view based on Paul’s teaching, and believe that faith in Jesus apart from good works suffices for salvation.

They have their own interpretation of the “Born Again” status of those who follow their version of Christianity. The “Born Again” Christians believe that they cannot commit any sin, as Jesus is in them.

One of their scholars explains in their website, the right attitude of a Born Again Christian toward sins.:

“Do you have to give up your sins to be saved? No, just your unbelief. I get upset when people teach “Lordship salvation.” What is that? Lordship salvation is the false doctrine that you must make Christ the “Lord” of your life to be saved, that you must repent and depart from sin.

That is impossible! There is no such thing as a believer who does not commit sin. We are all woeful sinners. If I have to give up a certain amount of sin to be saved, then how much do I have to give up? Just because a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior does not mean they are above sin.

As a matter of fact, getting saved is just the start of a lifelong process. Try as hard as you may, you are going to walk in the flesh at times and sin..” (Do I Have to Give Up My Sins to be Saved?)

The above belief is derived from the following Biblical verses:

[Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.] (John 3:3)

[Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God.] (John 5:1)

[Whoever is born of God does not commit sin.] (John 3:9)

Apparently, the Christian who described the Biblical teaching of salvation as ‘easy’ believes the above interpretation. He believes that Jesus the Son of God atoned for his sins in advance, and for him to believe this is very easy.

Therefore, he does not need to take the uphill road taken by Muslims, by praying five times a day, fasting a whole month and paying a considerable portion of his earnings to the poor and so on.

Logic & Comparison
But let him for a moment ponder objectively as a rational human being, whether this belief of his can be an encouragement to do good or a discouragement, in the first place.

Also, where is the justice of God in crucifying an innocent man to save the actual sinners?

First, we are told that the Original Sin committed by our great-great grandparents is inherited by every baby that is born. And then we are told that God decided to pay for that sin Himself, by sacrificing His own innocent Son.

Thereafter, we are told that all the Christians —that is, those who accept the above beliefs—can go on sinning, as they have already been saved.

Compare the above beliefs with what Allah Almighty has said in the Quran:

{Who receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit: who goes astray doth so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).} (A-Israa’ 17:15)​

It is only justice, that the one who does good must get his reward; and the one who does evil should get the punishment for it, is it not?

Otherwise, why should any government bother to maintain elaborate legal systems to punish the actual criminals?

Why can’t they just punish some easy scapegoats, and say the blood of these innocents washes away the sins of the wicked ones?

And if God is just, how can He make an innocent man—Jesus—bear the punishment for all the robberies, murders, and adulteries committed by the sinners, and set the criminals free?

Islam teaches not only that God is just, but that all humans should uphold justice, strive for justice, and do their utmost in order to establish justice in the world.

Muslims believe that we are answerable for our actions, and so we are careful and responsible.

We strive to live by the guidance God has given us through the prophets and faithfully look forward to God’s forgiveness and eternal blessings in His Paradise."

source: http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/is-faith-enough/

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

For what it is worth, and I speak anecdotally as someone who has lived and worked in the Middle East and thus am privileged to have a lot of Muslim friends (and they are not breaking Quranic commandments to be my friend {click here}), the Quranic verse you quote here is not an absolute prohibition against friendship between Muslims and Christians. It can be counterbalanced by a few others, such as, for instance:

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."​

Quran 5:82​

​

"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration."​

Quran 3:113​

As for not taking Christians as "friends and protectors," sometimes called political allies, a good example of what happened when Muslims did take at least nominally Christian Great Britain as a friend and protector was when, after T.E. Lawrence, following Britain's well-practiced policy of "divide et impera," or divide and conquer, had managed to break then-fledgling Saudi Arabia away from the declining Ottoman Empire, Britain, by way of Balfour and Lord Rothschild, handed Jews at least a section of Palestine, in the Balfour Declaration, but was secretly double-crossing Muslim Arab aspirations by means of the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

With that said, and again speaking only politically, if Great Britain be an example of Christian principles in operation, and I know that's a stretch, it may well be said that "God so loved the world," as you quote, but He is also, apparently, working to "make His enemies his footstool."

I quite agree about Great Britain and Colonialism exporting conquest, empire and Christianity in equal measure. How nations and power groups appropriate religious support and justification is an interesting historical theme.

I think the reason why people do it and the reason why it is repeatedly effective is that faith is ultimately more significant to the human heart than mere nationalism, so, like in surfing, national interest is in a sense rather like the surfer catching the power of the religious wave.

Imo - In still, apathetic times, it is hard for the power hungry to harness very much force of faith or philosophical conviction behind their schemes, so "they" need to create (or stir up) conflict and oppositions that attract or repel people to polar positions, and then appropriate suitable ideologies and faiths to get people and energy behind their plans.

 

[Bacsi]

If you reject the bible, why aren't you rejecting Islam as well?
It seems to claim to be in agreement with the bible, especially the Old Testament laws.

I don't reject anything. It's oversimplification. There's good and bad in everything.

 

[Bacsi]

Great post, but I absolutely disagree that this is about Islam. I would like to quote a few passages from the Bible (old/new testaments)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (Matthew 15:8)

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: (Isaiah 29:13)

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This, I believe, is key: Belief in heart. Not in intellect, and certainly not with just the mouth. I believe God values the intents of the heart above all else.

Does this make Islam the best religion in the world? Because you met one man whose behavior was admirable - who happened to be a Muslim - and seeing him had a great positive effect on your family? No, I don't think so. I honestly think that point of view is naive. You can find fantastic people who are Christians, Buddhists, Shintoists or whatever else, as well. Radiant people like you describe are clearly in contact with something special, with Truth - but the question is always: Rather than just partial Truth, what is ultimate Truth?

View attachment 10476

This quote (and image) is attributed to Blavatsky. Whatever one thinks of her it seems self-evident to me what she said here must necessarily be correct: Truth is the highest authority since, by definition, it is in complete accord with what is correct, or, narrowed down, simply: what is.

Is Islam in complete accordance with ultimate Truth, then? I don't think so. There are many aspects of Islam which resonate, that are in alignment with Truth. Unfortunately, as I perceive that religion, it is mixed with many lies and deception and therefore ultimately is not the Truth.

There's a passage in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 I regard as absolutely crucial when it comes to discernment:

Prove [test] all things; hold fast that which is good.

As you can see, this is basically saying the exact same thing Blavatsky wrote of in the cited quote above: You have to test it, find out whether it is the Truth.

When I test the religion of Islam I find that it does not resonate with ultimate truth. Hence, I am not a Muslim. This does not, however, in any way mean that I hold some black-and-white, generalized view such as 'Islam is bad, therefore all Muslims are bad people' - no. Such is obviously not the case. From an intellectual standpoint, however, it seems obvious to me that Islam is a classic case of the typical scheme of deception where some truth is presented to suck people in, but it is then mixed with lies to hold them in bondage. I conclude that Muslims - or any other religious denomination - can be good, even great people, but that does not make Islam a good religion. People are good to whatever extent they operate in accordance with ultimate truth itself, not with their belief system.

You have to make these kinds of distinctions and understand the level of deception played out against us if you want to find ultimate truth - there's a lot invested into deceiving people (it's what this world and the forces of evil operating it are all about).

Islam is in many ways a hostile, aggressive, warlike, exclusivist religion. And that is definitely not in accordance with Truth. Compare:

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (5:51)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

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Here, the Muslims would have you believe that the same almighty God who loves Humanity so much that He was willing to incarnate to suffer a horrific death on the cross to save them would also encourage the 'true believers' to fiercely discriminate against other human beings having fallen under the 'Satanic deceptions' of Christianity and Judaism, respectively, and that the Muslim 'true believers' should avoid 'allying' with them, ie. Muslims here (including yourself) probably shouldn't even be talking to non-Muslims on this forum because we are 'wrongdoers' and ultimately in allegiance with Satan.

I have no idea why anybody would want to subscribe to such a religion that says those things, but it must be up to each individual to find a belief system that resonates. All I will say is, be careful and read the fine print and understand exactly what it is you are presenting as 'glorious truth'.

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You can examine a further comparison between Islam and Christianity on this Islam-critical website: https://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx

I agree about single truth. Blavatskaya was a somewhat shady character, but she was definitely a genius of extracting generalized information from multiple sources.

The Abrahamic religions are relatively young. Before them, there existed different spiritual ideas, Tengriism as a form of a Shamanic worldview being one of the oldest ones.

The humankind haven't even scratched the surface of the truth.

 

[Bacsi]

Standing back from the question of "which is the best religion", it begs the questions -

What does that even mean?
What is the function of faith?
Is best the one the one that makes people behave in a way which most other people prefer?
Is objective "truth" important or does the existential notion of "your truth" followed by agreeable actions the standard by which this question of "best" is to judged?

Is Christianity a "religion" in the same sense as other religions - I guess it depends how you define it but I would say "no" and try to explain why...

Theoretically something can claim to be truth, but then does it work or not? I think practice is the criterion. I think there's truth and untruth in any faith. The question is, which is closer to the ultimate truth or contains more truth.

I see Islam works. Other faiths not so much.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Theoretically something can claim to be truth, but then does it work or not? I think practice is the criterion. I think there's truth and untruth in any faith. The question is, which is closer to the ultimate truth or contains more truth.

I see Islam works. Other faiths not so much.

What does "works" mean in this context? Creating conformity in a society around a shared set of values perhaps?

 

[Bacsi]

For what it is worth, and I speak anecdotally as someone who has lived and worked in the Middle East and thus am privileged to have a lot of Muslim friends (and they are not breaking Quranic commandments to be my friend {click here}), the Quranic verse you quote here is not an absolute prohibition against friendship between Muslims and Christians. It can be counterbalanced by a few others, such as, for instance:

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
Quran 5:82

"Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration."
Quran 3:113​

As for not taking Christians as "friends and protectors," sometimes called political allies, a good example of what happened when Muslims did take at least nominally Christian Great Britain as a friend and protector was when, after T.E. Lawrence, following Britain's well-practiced policy of "divide et impera," or divide and conquer, had managed to break then-fledgling Saudi Arabia away from the declining Ottoman Empire, Britain, by way of Balfour and Lord Rothschild, handed Jews at least a section of Palestine, in the Balfour Declaration, but was secretly double-crossing Muslim Arab aspirations by means of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and the consequences of that are with us still.

With that said, and again speaking only politically, if Great Britain be an example of Christian principles in operation, and I know that's a stretch, it may well be said that "God so loved the world," as you quote, but He is also, apparently, working to "make His enemies his footstool."

Islam has been peaceful and unifying throughout history. It promotes religious pluralism and equality. Other faiths not so much. If people pluck out verses and base their judgement solely on that, it's far detached from reality. There are plenty negative verses in the Bible, but one should judge about religions based on the book by looking at the entirety of their doctrines and practices. Interpretation and application is key.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

P.s. this thread qualifies for a good clip!