Why should I repent of something if it's not a sin? Where does the Bible say I have to go to church on Sunday? I don't believe at all that the Bible commands us to go to church,
I suppose it depends on what you consider a Sin?
James 5:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Well I disagree the Bible is very clear we need to congregate with fellow believers:
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
So I guess it depends on if one chooses to look at this verse believe it is true, know assembling together is good and not do it, if one thinks this verse is true, knows its good to assemble with other believers but doesnt well that would be sin...
I think preachers like to make us think that because it's convenient for them.
Man I am sorry you have such a negative view of preachers, I hope you come to find some real ones that just want to preach because they have been called to do so and want to help edify others and bring the lost to salvation.
1 Cor 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
Do you not think these kind of preachers exist? I do, in fact my Church has like 8-9 in it, all good men who travel all over preaching and not making a dime to do so, just because they were called and woe unto them if they DONT preach the gospel!!! Real preachers exist and I believe that they exist in your area as well...
If we are stranded on a desert island are we no longer Christians? No, even if we are stranded on a desert island we can still be saved.
I would never say ever that going to Church is Salvation Dependent and I dont see how anything Ive ever written could possibly be understood this way, I said it in the other thread we have open concerning Church and I will say it here, attending Church is not Salvation Dependent. However I do believe that since the Word of God tells us to gather together that one who is Born Again will have the Holy Spirit moving upon them and trying to convict them to go meet with other Christians. I know that the Holy Spirit has always drawn me to desire to be around other Born Again Believers. Even when I was convincing myself that I didnt need to go, or want to go for many of the reasons you have stated, I couldnt shake the desire and feeling I ought to go.
So while of course we can be saved and be on a desert island, what good are we to the Body of Believers, the Glory of Christ in the World or even ourselves if we choose to isolate and put ourselves on an island? What if every Born Again Believer thought this way? How would the Gospel ever go out? How would we ever edify ourselves?
If we arent supposed to attend Church as this and other posts in this thread by you pretty much declare then why is it that over half of the New Testament are letters to Churches?
1 Cor 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Phil 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Thes 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thes 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
What was Paul doing in all of his travels? He was just preaching the Gospel but establishing Churches, why would Paul establish Churches if they werent vital to the Christian lifestyle? Wouldnt that seem to be a waste?
If attending Church wasnt that big of a deal then why does Paul write extensively on how to create, maintain and order a Church to Timothy and Titus? 1 Tim 3:1-14, 1 Tim 5 the entire chapter basically is about dealing with the Church, Titus 1:5-9. I dont know but it seems like a huge deal to Paul almost all of his writing are to Churches, a body of believers who are gathering together regularly with a structure under his guidance and model.
Jesus called the pharisees hypocrites. If I was to follow His example, I'd probably be in my local churches calling preachers hypocrites and maybe chasing prosperity preachers out of the churches.
Maybe thats what you are called to do? Maybe the reason the Church is in such a bad shape today overran with false teachers and doctrine is because those of us who are Born Again Believers are listening to our flesh and the lies of Satan that we dont need to go Church, that we dont need to gather with other believers, that we dont need to call out false teachers and false doctrine? Maybe the reason the Church looks so bad today is that we stay at home complaining about the state of the Church and take no personal responsibility to change or minister to others?
When I try going to church, I feel disgusted.
Thats terrible brother, I will continue to pray you find a Good Church, maybe just maybe God is trying to press you to call out to Him and desire in the depths of your soul to go to a Church HE wants you in, and maybe just maybe this entire exchange is all about that, but maybe not, maybe I am crazy to randomly be lead to urge you to go to Church outta no where, maybe the Holy Spirit didnt impress upon me to bring that up to you, who knows?
I don't really care about church.
Thats no good, I mean Paul went to great lengths laying his life on the line to establish Churches, and he wrote extensively about the Church and how to maintain them, pretty sure they were important to him. If he was willing to die to create and maintain Churches I personally need to care about them, and especially the people in them!!!
I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says "be dependent on a church"- no!
Well the Church is the Body of Believers that come together as a community to Worship God and support one another, so what exactly is your ideal of dependent? Overall my dependency is upon Christ, but it would be remiss to believe that God didnt tell us to gather together and separate ourselves from the World with the intent of becoming a community and family to Worship and support one another. I personally and extremely grateful I no longer have to endure life alone, walking the walk of a Christian is not an easy thing, and much more so to try and do it cut off from the Body of Believers. I am thankful I can depend on my fellow brothers and sisters that meet at this building regularly so that I can Worship God with them, love them and feel love from them!!! Its a blessing without a doubt!!! Why would I not be continually urging other Christians to go and find the same thing, especially when I know they are out there...
We should be reading our Bibles and praying and repenting and we shoukd be independent.
I disagree with the independent ideology, the entire make up of Christianity has always been a community of like minded fellow believers that met together to worship and help keep the faith. Please quote me Scriptures about how we should be independent and NOT meeting with other believers for edification.
And to try to make people dependent on some church group is a sort of spiritual communism
Not at all, unless you think everything Paul and the Apostles were doing and dying for is Spiritual Communism, because they were all about creating Churches. It seems to me your understanding of the Church is completely separate from what the Word of God declares a Church to be, you have an animosity towards any and all Churches to a point you are calling them Communistic because you havent found a good one, I suppose. Churches arent the enemy brother, not having True Bible Believing members that study the Word of God and pray relentlessly in the Churches, that is the problem. I put the onus on us not the building people congregate at...
Christians are and have been a countercultural force since our religion's inceptiom. And so are we to adhere to a centralized power structure? No, I think that's insane.
I would not suggest having a centralized Church as that of the Roman Catholic Church and to believe that I have or would be stating such a thing is nonsensical at best. This is worlds apart from saying hey go meet with other Christians so you can worship God together, be held accountable to one another, show each other love and mercy and grace, and find fellowship with others who believe as you do so you dont have be lonely or sad. That is what I am saying dont misconstrue what I have said...
We should each be reading and atudying our Bibles independently. We should be self-sufficient and self-reliant.
I have no problem saying we should all read and study our Bibles independent of our Churches or Pastors and if you were to attend a Church that doesnt literally tell you to do such a thing then I would say leave that Church. My Church expects its members to read, study and pray completely independently from the Church.
Do you need pastors? Do you need a church?
Yes sir I need my Church, living most of my Christian walk doing exactly what you stated I should do, then following the Word of God and getting into my Church there is a night and day difference, and I believe that if you were to get into a Real Gospel Preaching Church you would feel the same way too. I am thankful for my Pastor, he has preached many sermons that stirred up the Holy Spirit in me, that lead me to a deeper understanding of the Word of God, that brought me to a closer walk with Christ, that inspired me to read and study in ways I hadnt previously, that brought me to repentance. Hes sat and counselled me helping me to endure some very hard things I have gone thru in the past year, he has offered warmth and kindness to my family, and most importantly he preached the Gospel to my wife and child and was instrumental in them being Born Again.
The biggest difference I see here, is that you have only had negative experiences with Churches, and I understand that, I have had them as well, and it was a huge motivating factor as to why I went many years not attending any or if I did attend it was irregularly. I was part of a Church called the Vineyard, it is a Non Denominational Church and when I was a child it wasnt very big. Of course being a child I didnt know everything it was about as they stupidly move the kids away from the adults (something my current church refuses to do no matter the age) during services. As a teen it was simply another hang out, why? Because they catered to the flesh and tried to basically make it a worldly fun place with Jesus name on top. I never heard the Gospel preached I never learned anything deep about the Lord or the Word, it was just worldly.
When I got older this place exploded and became a Mega Church, and at that point I was Lost and had nothing to do with Christ, I was as Anti Christ as you could get, and when I was Born Again I attended a Church of Christ for a brief time and then left due to a ex girlfriend working at the school and it was at odds with me to be around her and not with her. Then out into no mans land I went for years, not attending any Church consistently going here and there to a few different ones nothing impactful. Literally living exactly as you say we ought to, and if I am honest with myself and all of you, it was difficult. I was the only saved person of my friends and so they began to distance themselves from me because I always wanted to preach Christ, I had no Christian friends cuz who really finds True Christian friends in the World? I surely didnt find any...
Then after I broke up with one of my ex's I caught on fire for the Lord again and started attending the same Vineyard Church from my past but like I said it was massive, like thousands of members and while I loved the outreach it did to the community and I was blessed to be able to go to New Orleans after the Hurricane and serve, the Church itself, the preaching was stale and uninspiring. Again it was all worldly, and left a bad taste in my mouth and eventually I quit going, for the reasons you have laid out...
Fast forward and I am in a different city and my wife is moved in with me and her child, and I had been living the totally independent renegade Christian you laid out for about 6 years at this point and with them in my life I felt lead to get involved in Church, so we began to attend another Vineyard in that city simply because it was familiar. We spent some time there and the same thing happened, it was massive so there was no intimacy, never really got to know anyone. The preaching was stale even tho I tried as hard as I could to enjoy and relate to it. This went on for about a year, year and a half, and the whole time never was the Gospel preached, and my wife and child remained lost. A full year or more of attending a Church and my wife never once felt a need to repent and cry out for Salvation!! What does that tell you about this Church?
It comes to Easter of 2015 and I had already been feeling the Holy Spirit moving on me to leave, but I kept going just cuz I wanted my family in Church because the Word of God is clear about this, and during Easter they bring in a guest "preacher" who hailed from Bethel Church in Redding California. Now if you havent heard of this Church google them, they are a Cancer on Christianity and sadly many of the Bigger Churches in America are affiliated with them in some way, they preach all sorts of false doctrines, like Name It Claim It, Glory Clouds and Gold Dust and Feathers, Grave Sucking, Dominionism, Word of Faith, Signs and Wonders, Healings ect ect ect.
And when the man took the stage I could just feel the Holy Spirit just going crazy inside of me, IDK if I have ever felt it move in this type of Danger Will Rodgers type of way ever before, and I looked over at my family, I had my wife, kid, niece and brother in law all with me, and they were just laughing and laughing at what he was saying. And I heard God speak to my heart and say Look at how he is gripping the minds of your family, you need to get up and leave. And so I did, I stood up right in the middle of his "sermon" and left never looking back...
I was out of Church for almost 1 year exactly and it was an insanely hard time lost my mother the only save person in my life, and the other things I was dealing with which I mentioned in my testimony. And after almost a year of completely walking away from the Lord is when I repented and He lead me miraculously to the Church I am at now, and this Church and the others are polar opposites. So do I need my Church yes, I need the loving people that make up my Church they are wonderful caring, kind people who have bent over backwards to help me. I truly wish I had them when my mom died, it would have helped immensely. Do I need my Pastor, yes I need a Man of God I can trust to speak about things going on in my life and who has no qualms preaching Hellfire and Brimstone, and the True Gospel.
I hope one day you find a family in Christ that you are willing to publicly state you need because of how much they love you and how much you love them...
Brother, if I am not disciplined enough to seriously read and study the Bible on my own then that is a fault in my self-discipline.
Its a help to have brothers who encourage you thru out the day to keep your mind on Christ, its a help to have brothers who want to study the Bible with you, its a help to have them in hard times and good times. Its a help when you have 4 preachers to reach out to and gain love and encouragement from, it helps to have someone to keep you accountable. I hope one day you realize the difference brother...
The fact is, I feel closer to God studying the Bible on my own than going to any of these lifeless churches.
Well as I have said already, I will pray you change your mind and God provokes you to step out in Faith until He fulfills His promise to put you in the Church He wants and needs you in, hope it comes soon brother, Love you God Bless....
