Strongest anti-abortion law in USA passes Alabama Senate, heads to governor’s desk

[Damien50]

Well, yeah.. I guess it does.

You don't think a heartbeat in this context constitutes being alive? No offense intended, I'm just curious.

I was taught from a biblical perspective that God recognized life at the first breath. Does life support constitute being alive?

 

[elsbet]

A functioning brain, consciousness, working nerve endings the ability to feel... just having a heartbeat does not make a human.

That's a matter of opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think it is a human being before the heartbeat is even detectable.

 

[elsbet]

I was taught from a biblical perspective that God recognized life at the first breath. Does life support constitute being alive?

That's what your post made me think of, tbh. I think there's a certain cruelty in keeping people "alive" who could not otherwise draw breath, without life support. I don't mean people who have a legitimate chance of recovery-- I'm talking about people in a vegetative state or suffering from a chronic condition, with no hope of recovery, whatsoever. It's a horrible situation for all parties involved, especially if it's someone's child (even if they're grown... no one should have to bury their kid). Something about it just seems unethical imo.

I do not, though, think that situation is comparable to the unborn, who actually *will* be able to live, without assistance, given a short amount of time.


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[mecca]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1129718315943964673

 

[Damien50]

That's what your post made me think of, tbh. I think there's a certain cruelty in keeping people "alive" who could not otherwise draw breath, without life support. I don't mean people who have a legitimate chance of recovery-- I'm talking about people in a vegetative state or suffering from a chronic condition, with no hope of recovery, whatsoever. It's a horrible situation for all parties involved, especially if it's someone's child (even if they're grown... no one should have to bury their kid). Something about it just seems unethical imo.

I do not, though, think that situation is comparable to the unborn, who actually *will* be able to live, without assistance, given a short amount of time.


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I just take it as life beginning at their first breath but at the same time I acknowledge when my bias for my view was written so it doesn't really coincide with modern beliefs. I would prefer abortion never feel like a necessity for any woman but i don't believe making it illegal helps the problem and is a very western thing to do, rather than cure the problem we attempt to bandaid it.

At the same time I'm not really considering it as murder or some sacrament to a god. It hits a moral gray area for me because I remember people saying ejaculation was a sin and in a not more deranged way it was infanticide lol.

I'd rather it be a private matter between a husband and wife or woman and doctor. It's not my situation and I'm not equipped to tell someone what to do but not offer alternatives. Though it shouldn't be used as birth control.

 

[elsbet]

Would you be opposed to waiving the requirement that a father consent to adoption? Enforcing child support through payroll with holding and mandatory imprisonment for men who refuse to work/work off the books or just wont pay? Expanding access to affordable child care and the financial safety net for these women who will be raising children they aren’t able to otherwise care for?

There are situations which make it dangerous for a woman to birth a child where the reason isn’t medical. Domestic violence - spousal murder tends to happen in already violent situations where a new pregnancy is introduced. What about those women? Are we funding a financially stable and well protected (through police I guess) system to get those women out? The mental health and criminal justice systems to deal with these offenders?

Maybe because of how much time I’ve spent dealing with the situations in society many would rather pretend don’t exist or are rare... maybe I am jaded but I’d rather think my eyes are open. We leave women with a whole lot of responsibilities and risks that they and only they know best how to handle and then say no, we know best and do nothing to ameliorate these things or assist. We don’t know best. We can’t. And the things we could do to prevent most of these situations to begin with we refuse to do.

I know all about responsibilities, I’ve had them on my plate since I was too young to carry them. But I’ve carried them anyway and I’d never suggest some one run from them just because they want to, but there are situations and circumstances beyond anyone’s control that can not be adequately anticipated or dealt with by the government with blanket policies.

And what about pro life for the born baby?

And what of the women who consistently run back to the same abuser they called the cops on two nights ago, but refused to prosecute.. ? That's another topic entirely (kind of), but its a reality, as well. Seems at this point we're talking about euthanizing children so they and their mothers don't experience hardship.

 

[justjess]

If domestic violence were that simple or even rational at all it wouldn’t be the huge issue it is. Your grossly undersinplifying and being somewhat condescending here..

And I’m not talking about euthanizing children. I’m talking about aborting fetus. Or even before they become a fetus. Not the same thing by a long shot

 

[elsbet]

If domestic violence were that simple or even rational at all it wouldn’t be the huge issue it is. Your grossly undersinplifying and being somewhat condescending here..

And I’m not talking about euthanizing children. I’m talking about aborting fetus. Or even before they become a fetus. Not the same thing by a long shot

I'm not oversimplifying-- I said that in response to your statement--

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spousal murder tends to happen in already violent situations where a new pregnancy is introduced. What about those women?​

Failure to prosecute is a legitimate issue (one of many) in domestic violence cases... obviously. Codependency factors into it, largely. Dysfunction is rampant-- and I'm certain it seems like a mercy not to allow yet another person to be subject to such a life. I get that. I agree with a lot of what you posted-- we are essentially treating symptoms rather than the actual problems causing them. This is one of the actual problems though, imo. Aborting a kid because it might get you killed at home? Start there, rather than sending them back to the abusive home, child free, where they are likely to be killed anyway.

Fetus is just a term that has been selected to describe an unborn child... makes it not so icky in conversation. So if you prefer-- euthanizing the unborn to prevent hardship. That's what it sounds like we're talking about, these days.

 

[justjess]

I'm not oversimplifying-- I said that in response to your statement--

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spousal murder tends to happen in already violent situations where a new pregnancy is introduced. What about those women?​

Failure to prosecute is a legitimate issue (one of many) in domestic violence cases... obviously. Codependency factors into it, largely. Dysfunction is rampant-- and I'm certain it seems like a mercy not to allow yet another person to be subject to such a life. I get that. I agree with a lot of what you posted-- we are essentially treating symptoms rather than the actual problems causing them. This is one of the actual problems though, imo. Aborting a kid because it might get you killed at home? Start there, rather than sending them back to the abusive home, child free, where they are likely to be killed anyway.

Fetus is just a term that has been selected to describe an unborn child... makes it not so icky in conversation. So if you prefer-- euthanizing the unborn to prevent hardship. That's what it sounds like we're talking about, these days.

It’s medical terminology man. Prior to the third trimester they do not have functioning nerve endings or a prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex is what houses our personality, our consciousness.

A skeleton is human in the literal sense but it is not human in the full sense. And that is the difference. What makes a human a human? Different people come to different conclusions. I do not believe an early term fetus qualifies, it lacks the markers of personhood.

As for domestic violence... it is extremely complicated. Really not for this thread, I only brought it up because it is an example of a potentially life threatening pregnancy which isn’t for medical reasons.

 

[elsbet]

It’s medical terminology man. Prior to the third trimester they do not have functioning nerve endings or a prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex is what houses our personality, our consciousness.

A skeleton is human in the literal sense but it is not human in the full sense. And that is the difference. What makes a human a human? Different people come to different conclusions. I do not believe an early term fetus qualifies, it lacks the markers of personhood.

As for domestic violence... it is extremely complicated. Really not for this thread, I only brought it up because it is an example of a potentially life threatening pregnancy which isn’t for medical reasons.

Skeletons are dead, with no hope for survival. Medical terminology-- I shrug. So dangerous are the side effects of medicine these days that the Medical /legal disclaimers last longer than the commercials.. but it is required because they are killing people. Point being-- many of the reasons / excuses given hinge on much larger problems within society, all of which are complicated because people are complicated-- the one you happened to point out though takes the cake.

 

[DevaWolf]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1129718315943964673

Yes, they call for less welfare and social support in the same breath they call for letting a foetus live out of 'love for unborn life'.

That's right, unborn life. They don't give a hoot about born life, just like they don't care about the misery they put women through.

 

[elsbet]

Yes, they call for less welfare and social support in the same breath they call for letting a foetus live out of 'love for unborn life'.

That's right, unborn life. They don't give a hoot about born life, just like they don't care about the misery they put women through.

Oddly, the article quotes the governor stating the bill is unenforceable. What is the point of writing a bill that is unenforceable? Perhaps to cause a bit of chaos is my guess. Abortion will never be outlawed. It's important to remember the whole left / right division *where government is concerned* is an illusion. They are all on the same side-- we (the peons) are on the other side.

 

[manama]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1129718315943964673

People don't seem to understand the amount of abuse that goes on in foster care system as well as the kids being put up for adoption. Lets pretend the bill was passed and no woman is having abortions anymore, the kids being born will be exploited in ways that are horrifying to even imagine. There is a market out there that needs kids, these kids will become a prime target.

But no lets fight for the rights of cells and not for the kids already born and in the "system".

 

[KoncreteMind]

I'd rather it be a private matter between a husband and wife or woman and doctor.

But abortion doesnt even include a husband UNLESS the wife wants it that way right? If a woman can decide to absolve herself of being accountable for a fetus she willingly created, then what is the man's way to do that when the woman wants the child? And thats my problem with abortion (well other than it being murder/killing)..Its totally one sided. Man wants the baby but woman doesnt? Child is aborted, man left with nothing. Woman wants the baby but man doesnt? Child is born and the man is forced to father a child (emotionally/physically and/or financially) that he did not want. Wheres the equality that these women are supposedly fighting for in that?

Abortion should either be done away with altogether (except in the cases of r*pe/incest) or men should be allowed an equal alternative to absolve themselves from parenting (physically/emotionally or financially) unwanted children.

On another note, to me, abortion is the modern day "passing the kids thru fire" Molech worship. And maybe/maybe not connecting to fetuses (allegedly) being found in food products such as Pepsi.. With Planned Parenthood being found mostly in low income (i.e black/brown) areas, and anyone being able to look up what Margaret Sanger is said to have said about blacks and the "undesirables" not being fit to live as well, its just hard to blindly support abortion in full. And to be clear, this is a tangent/rant I went off on based on something I read in your post. Im not suggesting that you are for or against any of the issues I brought up....

 

[Damien50]

But abortion doesnt even include a husband UNLESS the wife wants it that way right? If a woman can decide to absolve herself of being accountable for a fetus she willingly created, then what is the man's way to do that when the woman wants the child? And thats my problem with abortion (well other than it being murder/killing)..Its totally one sided. Man wants the baby but woman doesnt? Child is aborted, man left with nothing. Woman wants the baby but man doesnt? Child is born and the man is forced to father a child (emotionally/physically and/or financially) that he did not want. Wheres the equality that these women are supposedly fighting for in that?

Abortion should either be done away with altogether (except in the cases of r*pe/incest) or men should be allowed an equal alternative to absolve themselves from parenting (physically/emotionally or financially) unwanted children.

On another note, to me, abortion is the modern day "passing the kids thru fire" Molech worship. And maybe/maybe not connecting to fetuses (allegedly) being found in food products such as Pepsi.. With Planned Parenthood being found mostly in low income (i.e black/brown) areas, and anyone being able to look up what Margaret Sanger is said to have said about blacks and the "undesirables" not being fit to live as well, its just hard to blindly support abortion in full. And to be clear, this is a tangent/rant I went off on based on something I read in your post. Im not suggesting that you are for or against any of the issues I brought up....

Soylent Green.

 

[KoncreteMind]

Soylent Green.

Never heard of it but googled it and I assume you're referring to the movie?

 

[manama]

But abortion doesnt even include a husband UNLESS the wife wants it that way right? If a woman can decide to absolve herself of being accountable for a fetus she willingly created, then what is the man's way to do that when the woman wants the child? And thats my problem with abortion (well other than it being murder/killing)..Its totally one sided. Man wants the baby but woman doesnt? Child is aborted, man left with nothing. Woman wants the baby but man doesnt? Child is born and the man is forced to father a child (emotionally/physically and/or financially) that he did not want. Wheres the equality that these women are supposedly fighting for in that?

Man isn't the one creating the kid tho, its not his body. Like justjess has been saying in the THREE threads regarding this very topic, "Vasectomy" is a thing.

 

[Damien50]

Never heard of it but googled it and I assume you're referring to the movie?

Yeah lol

 

[KoncreteMind]

Man isn't the one creating the kid tho, its not his body. Like justjess has been saying in the THREE threads regarding this very topic, "Vasectomy" is a thing.

Its the man's seed in the woman's body that brings forth life. In other words, its a two person process. If we're for equality either both should have to live with their choices, or both should have an opt out option. Any in between and one shows that they're not for equality...

And if "vasectomy" is a thing, so is getting ones tubes tied...

 

[DevaWolf]

Its the man's seed in the woman's body that brings forth life. In other words, its a two person process. If we're for equality either both should have to live with their choices, or both should have an opt out option. Any in between and one shows that they're not for equality...

And if "vasectomy" is a thing, so is getting ones tubes tied...

With abortion, the father has an opt out option at all times. Currently he also has it if he fathers a child which the woman cannot stop, and she has no 'opt out' without abortion. So if talking about fair, abortion should be an option.

And yes, women want to get their tubes tied frequently but are usually denied until they are close to menopause or have a child some other way. You clearly have no idea what it is like to look at this through a woman's perspective.

I got a vasectomy, and it's a wonderful thing for my marriage.