Steven Bancarz's Youtube clip "proof meditation is dangerous and demonic"

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I only responded to your point about Catholicism having the upper hand because it predates "protestantism".
Incorrect. Because they are part of a tradition which is much closely connected to the early Church than Protestantism ever was or ever will be (well, unless it absorbed itself back into the Catholic...aka "universal"...Church).

So they have religious OCD following a religion that is not consistent with a book they supposedly worship.
Again, not one of those things you'll ever appreciate as a Protestant. The way Protestantism treats the Bible as a fetish is indeed different from Catholicism and other earlier forms of Christianity.

They're not conspiracy theories though. They're correlations between symbology and practice where they overlap. What's your interpretation considering you claimed earlier that "Catholics have the upper hand, they've been around longer and have closer ties to Paul himself than you Protestants ever will have. Afterall your anti-spiritual dogmatic religiosity is as far away from the historical Jesus you could possibly get."?
I do think the Catholic way of ritual worship will always be lightyears more superior to Protestant forms of worship, hands-down without question or any doubt. Catholics (like Orthodox) inherited from the early church. They however continued to build upon it as a living tradition, not a stagnant one.

If I was 100% correct, nothing I believe or claimed would be effected. It makes no difference to me. You'd be the one better suited to pose that question to.
If you have no objections, then why bring it up with all the photos?

Apologies, I must have read you wrong then.
Clearly, because that is a statement about it's spiritual and social function, not the political reasons for the movement's origins.

Maybe "bookclub" Christianity was what you were exposed to of Christianity growing up. But it doesn't make it the objective truth.
Not really, afterall even in this thread the whole "not Biblical, it's evil" argument is being wedged. "bookclub" Christianity is more common than you realize but then perhaps you're applying different connotations to that phrase.
 






Robin

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Incorrect. Because they are part of a tradition which is much closely connected to the early Church than Protestantism ever was or ever will be (well, unless it absorbed itself back into the Catholic...aka "universal"...Church).
Sun worship was more closely tied to the early Church? Where was the idea of a papacy? Or the borderline deification of Mary? Or the use of "holy" ordained objects? Where are those supporting evidences in scripture?

Again, not one of those things you'll ever appreciate as a Protestant. The way Protestantism treats the Bible as a fetish is indeed different from Catholicism and other earlier forms of Christianity.
Sir, you assume a lot. That is literally the only thing I have left to say about this - you claim to be open-minded but you still pigeonhole people and deduce your own reasoning for the way others experience their spiritual walks. Who is fetishising the bible?

I do think the Catholic way of ritual worship will always be lightyears more superior to Protestant forms of worship, hands-down without question or any doubt. Catholics (like Orthodox) inherited from the early church. They however continued to build upon it as a living tradition, not a stagnant one.
Perfectly within your rights to believe that. Do you have any evidence of the early Church engaging in similar rituals as the Catholic Church?

If you have no objections, then why bring it up with all the photos?
Because you sounded like you wanted proof as to why some Christians reject Catholicism.

Clearly, because that is a statement about it's spiritual and social function, not the political reasons for the movement's origins.
So you don't think there were spiritual and social repercussions to the RCC's tyranny?

Not really, afterall even in this thread the whole "not Biblical, it's evil" argument is being wedged. "bookclub" Christianity is more common than you realize but then perhaps you're applying different connotations to that phrase.
Nah, I know how common it is. I grew up seeing various incarnations of it. I just grow frustrated with your using that personification as the poster child for all Christians.

Edit: you also brought up a very interesting point with this but didn't elaborate on it:

The Bible itself (far far more than the Qur'an) appropriates and reinvents pagan motifs often for the purpose of often simply converting, other times to antagonize and other times as a poetic reflection.

The obvious examples are the entire Apocalypse of St John, the book of Daniel, the book of Genesis (and so on).
Interestingly all three books are very much foundational to many of the doctrines of most forms of Christianity.


I'm pretty interested in learning how you discovered this.
 






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Yes it does, because you assume I have heard propaganda, you assume people told me a whole bunch of stuff, you ASSUME that A happened, then B then C.

Sorry, the kind of church I was involved in when I learnt of meditation didn't even talk or teach on the subject at all, but because you assume you think you know how I learned about meditation you don't even ask where I got my answers from.... No teachers, no preachers - it was like this - I PRAYED, Jesus taught me the answers - lesson learned. smh
you hear voices?
 






shankara

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Can you show this?


Well this same predating and proximity argument can be applied to Christianity versus Islam no?


I thought you just said that nothing about Christianity is biblical. How is it possible that they worship the bible then? I think you base a lot of your position on broad generalisations without really knowing exactly what it is people truly believe.


Easily a third of my family are Catholic. I don't hate Catholics. Things I know about Catholicism came from observing what they do and not blind assumptions. And there are many rites and rituals that have more in common with pagan practices. But I did look them up just to make sure I wasn't going off of personal experience alone.

"The medieval Catholic Church’s beliefs, worship, and structure was very similar to what’s found in a modern Catholic parish today. Until Vatican II (1962-1965), the Catholic Church worshipped and prayed in Latin, the language of the Roman Empire. Priests, Catholic ordained ministers, began practicing celibacy by papal decree in the 1000s. The current liturgy of the Mass, the service order for Catholic worship, dates from the Middle Ages, as does the practice of devotion to the saints and the Blessed Virgin."
https://worldhistory.us/medieval-history/a-brief-history-of-the-catholic-church-during-the-middle-ages.php

Theres the seven sacraments, the use of the rosary, the self-created holy days:
  • January 1: The Feast of Mary, the Mother of God.
  • 40 days after Easter Sunday: Ascension Thursday.
  • August 15: Assumption of Mary into heaven.
  • November 1: All Saints' Day.
  • December 8: The Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
  • December 25: Christmas, the Nativity of Our Lord.
. . . None of that is biblical. Never mind the pagan motifs visible in the architecture, statues, cathedrals etc. Sun worship -thats what I found.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves."

Acts 7:43
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

View attachment 26036

Above is a tablet from the early 9th century B.C. which depicts the Babylonian sun-god Shamash seated on the right, holding emblems of his authority, a staff and ring, and the king with two attendants on the left. In the center, on an altar, is a large 4-point sun image, with additional small wavy rays between the points.

View attachment 26037
This is an altar diagram from Ceremonial for the use of the Catholic Churches in the United States of America published by H. L. Kilner & Co., 1926.

The above diagram of the Catholic altar shows the same general Babylonian sun symbol. In the photo below, behind Pope John Paul II, on the front of the altar of St. Peter's Basilica, you see a tapestry with a sunburst design nearly identical to the pagan sun-god symbol of Baal / Shamash. This tapestry is called the altar frontal, antipendium (antependium), or pallium altaris:

View attachment 26038
View attachment 26039
View attachment 26040

There's more but all you have to do is look up sunburst/star symbolism in Catholicism and cross reference ancient pagan sun god motifs. There are no true "Christian" symbols. The bible doesnt say to observe any image or statue, not even the cross. The biggest thing that bugged me though was this:

View attachment 26041

The papal ferula. It always bothered me how Catholicism depicted the suffering of Jesus not only in brutal detail but perpetually. He's no longer on the cross and the tomb is empty. For Christians, that's where the power behind his death lies -his resurrection by God's power. That is my contention with Catholicism. Not Catholics -Catholicism. It's healthy to be able to make a distinction between people and their beliefs even if you don't agree with them.


Again, a lot of conjecture. I don't personally hate Catholics just like I don't automatically hate anyone who has a different belief system than I do. Why would I? But you're misrepresenting why the reformation took place. You're going to ignore the major political power held by the Catholic church prior to the reformation? Or the monopoly they kept on the bible by keeping it in Latin? The reformation happened because of the clergy abuse and greed of the sixteenth century church. I don't really like Wikipedia but here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

Not unlike the abuse and greed permeating many strains of "Christianity" today as well. I can acknowledge that because like we've discussed before I don't care too much for labels.

@Infinityloop, if I may ask, why do you dislike Christians so much? Is it just the ones on this board that rub you up the wrong way or do you dislike the entire belief system? I'm trying to understand here, not being facetious.
Jung said that Protestants have basically hollowed out the liturgy and removed it's deeper symbolic element. Are there obvious elements of other religious teachings in Catholicism? Self-evidently, because the different symbolic systems are different ways of understanding the same thing. But of course you can't handle that because you're convinced that if you dare to open up to anything other than this totally shallow intepretation of the Christ you won't be "saved"....
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Jung said that Protestants have basically hollowed out the liturgy and removed it's deeper symbolic element. Are there obvious elements of other religious teachings in Catholicism? Self-evidently, because the different symbolic systems are different ways of understanding the same thing. But of course you can't handle that because you're convinced that if you dare to open up to anything other than this totally shallow intepretation of the Christ you won't be "saved"....
As in:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/jung-steiner-shamanism-and-the-spiritual-nieivity-of-occultism.5295/
 






Robin

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Jung said that Protestants have basically hollowed out the liturgy and removed it's deeper symbolic element. Are there obvious elements of other religious teachings in Catholicism? Self-evidently, because the different symbolic systems are different ways of understanding the same thing. But of course you can't handle that because you're convinced that if you dare to open up to anything other than this totally shallow intepretation of the Christ you won't be "saved"....
If you can bring anything concrete for me to look at other than "Jung said that . . . " then I'll happily look into it. Making assumptions on my behalf is hardly demonstrating the open-mindedness you seem to think I lack, especially considering I have never had a single conversation with you.
 






shankara

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If you can bring anything concrete for me to look at other than "Jung said that . . . " then I'll happily look into it. Making assumptions on my behalf is hardly demonstrating the open-mindedness you seem to think I lack, especially considering I have never had a single conversation with you.
Yeah ok sorry didn't want to offend, just my general feeling about protestantism is that it tends towards a mentality of dismissing everything else as devil worship.

I can't do anything to demonstrate to you the wisdom of Jung except to say that if you read his work he has a lot of very interesting insights into human psychology and other subjects.
 






Robin

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Yeah ok sorry didn't want to offend, just my general feeling about protestantism is that it tends towards a mentality of dismissing everything else as devil worship.

I can't do anything to demonstrate to you the wisdom of Jung except to say that if you read his work he has a lot of very interesting insights into human psychology and other subjects.
Right. I'm not offended, I just have my set of beliefs as a result of my personal walk. I know why I believe what I do and I respect others of different beliefs, I just don't like it when people assume a monolithic reason for all they classify as "protestants". It's frustrating.
 






Camidria

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you hear voices?
When I really spend time with God, then yes I can hear His voice. The less I spend time with Him the fainter His voice, the more I read my Bible and spend time with Him, the louder and clearer I hear His voice. There is also specific things that happens (in nature) as conformation when I ask for it. Sometimes something very special will happen that I see and I will hear in my heart something God has been talking to me about clearly.

When I ignore God I hear nothing, and I feel very empty then.
 






Camidria

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Just wondering, how do you ignore God?
I have had a rocky relationship with my earthly father, therefore sometimes I struggle to connect with God, especially when I have been trying to do something that He wants me to do and I keep on falling to do it. Then I don't spend time in the Word or my prayers are one sided because I am frustrated and impatient, if I do this for more than a few days I feel like I am ignoring God (maybe ignore is the wrong word... it's more neglect)
 






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When I really spend time with God, then yes I can hear His voice. The less I spend time with Him the fainter His voice, the more I read my Bible and spend time with Him, the louder and clearer I hear His voice. There is also specific things that happens (in nature) as conformation when I ask for it. Sometimes something very special will happen that I see and I will hear in my heart something God has been talking to me about clearly.

When I ignore God I hear nothing, and I feel very empty then.
Could you describe what this voice sounds like and where it seems to be coming from? Also, when you visualize Jesus in your mind, what does he look like? Does he look mostly European? Serious questions.
 






Camidria

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Could you describe what this voice sounds like and where it seems to be coming from? Also, when you visualize Jesus in your mind, what does he look like? Does he look mostly European? Serious questions.
His voice sounds like my own thoughts but different in the sense that there is knowledge there that I just don't have, key and deep understanding for things in my life that I will normally not do - for example I am a very impulsive person and I will many times speak my mind without thinking an say things to people that I shouldn't be saying, so I would hear "shhhh not now" and it will take a lot of willpower to keep quiet after that.

Or in our city there are many beggars that use money for drugs so I never give money (South Africa for context), when I have driven past someone who really needs money I will hear in my heart to turn back and give a certain amount of money, sometimes an amount I cannot afford at that moment (according to me) - so it's always an inconvenience for me to turn around (and I am usually in a hurry), and drive back to give away the money. After that there will always be something unexpected that happens to reimburse that money. Also those specific beggars I will rarely see again.

I do not visualize Jesus in my mind, but the times that I have seen Him when I talk to Him He looks like this, just a little bit more dark skinned, definitely not European, I have only ever seen His white robes clearly really:

jesus-by-akiane-kramarik-5-options-available-11.jpg
 






Lisa

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I have had a rocky relationship with my earthly father, therefore sometimes I struggle to connect with God, especially when I have been trying to do something that He wants me to do and I keep on falling to do it. Then I don't spend time in the Word or my prayers are one sided because I am frustrated and impatient, if I do this for more than a few days I feel like I am ignoring God (maybe ignore is the wrong word... it's more neglect)
I can understand you having a rocky relationship with your dad after reading your post in the marriage thread. Ok, I didn’t know what you meant, thanks for explaining.

I think that picture of Jesus that you posted is too handsome to be Him, but that’s just my opinion. Wasn’t that drawn by a young lady? I can’t remember the story on that. Anyway, have a good day!
 






Camidria

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I can understand you having a rocky relationship with your dad after reading your post in the marriage thread. Ok, I didn’t know what you meant, thanks for explaining.

I think that picture of Jesus that you posted is too handsome to be Him, but that’s just my opinion. Wasn’t that drawn by a young lady? I can’t remember the story on that. Anyway, have a good day!
Her name is Akiana Kramaric, she is 25 years now, her first painting of Jesus was when she was 8 years old. She is an amazing girl, her whole family was Atheists, then God spoke to her directly when she was 4 years old giving her visions and encouraging her to paint them, she became a prodigy with her artwork - and her family all became saved because of the things they saw her do. I agree, I also think he is a bit less handsome than that - I have also heard people describe His hands as extremely rough :)

Have a great day as well!
 






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His voice sounds like my own thoughts but different in the sense that there is knowledge there that I just don't have, key and deep understanding for things in my life that I will normally not do - for example I am a very impulsive person and I will many times speak my mind without thinking an say things to people that I shouldn't be saying, so I would hear "shhhh not now" and it will take a lot of willpower to keep quiet after that.

Or in our city there are many beggars that use money for drugs so I never give money (South Africa for context), when I have driven past someone who really needs money I will hear in my heart to turn back and give a certain amount of money, sometimes an amount I cannot afford at that moment (according to me) - so it's always an inconvenience for me to turn around (and I am usually in a hurry), and drive back to give away the money. After that there will always be something unexpected that happens to reimburse that money. Also those specific beggars I will rarely see again.

I do not visualize Jesus in my mind, but the times that I have seen Him when I talk to Him He looks like this, just a little bit more dark skinned, definitely not European, I have only ever seen His white robes clearly really:

View attachment 26395
You are simply using your higher senses, aka intuition. This is a good thing, not many people pay attention. Keep it up. The painting, on the other hand, is not an actual depiction of Yeshua whatsoever. Akiane Kramarik paints pictures of the impostor known as Sananda Exu Immanuel, aka Lord Maitreya, aka Master Jesus. He is the leader of the "galactic federation" AKA "ashtar command". An advanced extra-terrestrial pretending to be Jesus, to put it simply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Jesus

There are many other impostors, and they will try to manipulate you but as long as you're using your intuition, they won't be able to. Stand firmly, don't be afraid, and don't dwell on this. If you react to what I'm saying by succumbing to fear then your intuition will shut down automatically.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Imposter_Spirit
 






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