Steven Bancarz's Youtube clip "proof meditation is dangerous and demonic"

Camidria

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@Camidria you don’t really hear the phrase “empty your mind” outside of religious propaganda that tries to scare people away from meditating. Trying to “empty” your mind is a good way to make sure you never learn how to really meditate. It doesn’t work that way. Honestly. You’re being duped by charlatans.
Ok let me just try and understand, what religious propaganda do you think I have listened to? Does my relationship with Jesus and hearing what He has said to me in my heart also count as religious propaganda? So my personal relationship with Jesus is a relationship with a charlatan then? :)
 






Camidria

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So I watched most of the last ten minutes of the video, these are my thoughts...

Ok so New Age is Satanic, I pretty much agree. Aleister Crowley was very dark, yes.

One of the major differences between New Age and Buddhist meditation is that after meditating a Buddhist says what is known as a Dedication Prayer, dedicating the merit gained by meditation to the cause of achieving enlightenment. Probably you have some objections to that as a Christian, but to me it makes sense.

As for this whole thing about "emptying the mind", one of my teachers said that an empty mind is shallow, rather we should try to cultivate "serene reflection". That could even be on the Bible, I don't see why not, the Bible is a legitimate revelation though obviously we interpret it differently.
Ok thank you for explaining but what about the first 20 minutes, there is some other things in those 20 minutes not covered in the last 10 minutes? Like the study where they interview Buddhist and Zen teachers that have done more than 10 000 hours of meditation and where experts in the field, the study found some interesting things...

What is enlightenment then - what happens when you achieve it?
 






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DavidSon

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Yes lets watch his first moments as a born again believer and judge everything he works on on that, even after 4 years he will be exactly the same right? nobody ever grows or changes right? That is what I am hearing so kudos to you for looking at 2% of the picture and thinking your ideas that flow from that little info will be spot on.... just saying.

Yes because different people will be treated exactly the same way by God, He made us different so that He can put us in boxes and treat us all precisely the same? :rolleyes:


Yep and I am challenging your opinion here, you say "you are so nuts for looking at Steven's videos" meanwhile what you say demonstrates that you have made a judgement about him based on a tinsey bit of information - that makes you an expert on who he is as a person? No one can form a fair opinion about anyone else based on one interaction.....
Sarcasm is a low form of communication. Just say what you want to say.

It isn't very important what I think of Steve's videos, or his journey for that matter. I'm also just one tiny speck in the universe, commenting on a message board. Most topics I avoid if I have nothing positive/worthwhile to offer.

In this case I find the idea of consulting Bancarz on something as natural as meditation, that it's possibly "dangerous and demonic" insulting. That's my perspective, so be it.

Life is infinite. We don't have to agree on everything. There's enough space to share the planet and co-exist.
 






Camidria

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Sarcasm is a low form of communication. Just say what you want to say.

It isn't very important what I think of Steve's videos, or his journey for that matter. I'm also just one tiny speck in the universe, commenting on a message board. Most topics I avoid if I have nothing positive/worthwhile to offer.

In this case I find the idea of consulting Bancarz on something as natural as meditation, that it's possibly "dangerous and demonic" insulting. That's my perspective, so be it.

Life is infinite. We don't have to agree on everything. There's enough space to share the planet and co-exist.
Ok forgive me, I was annoyed - if you watched the video you would have picked up that he is talking about case studies on meditation and their findings, he hardly touched on his own experience and rather focused on what what other experts in the field has said. If you would sit aside the time and watch the video then we could skip 4 hours of debate and go to the heart of the issues that he was raising instead of him.

I get it you don't like the guy, but it's annoying then that you didn't watch the video and rather focused on how much you don't like him rather than the information he produced in this video. Like when you give someone a Orange to eat and want their opinion on the taste but they insist the orange tastes bitter like a grapefruit and won't even try to taste for themselves. they look on the outside and judge the inside.
 






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shankara

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Ok thank you for explaining but what about the first 20 minutes, there is some other things in those 20 minutes not covered in the last 10 minutes? Like the study where they interview Buddhist and Zen teachers that have done more than 10 000 hours of meditation and where experts in the field, the study found some interesting things...

What is enlightenment then - what happens when you achieve it?
So I watched the video. For one I agree with what he says about reading scripture. Just for me that would include things like the Heart Sutra, the Bhagavad Gita.

Also what he says about meditation changing our perspective, believing in reincarnation etc. When we become more still, we become more open to the deeper truths of our existence. As the Psalms says "Be still and know that I am God". I don't think that means "Be still and know that what people who call themselves Christians have decided that I am is God".

Demonic oppression? Difficult psychological experiences? This is just a question of seeing what's really happening with us anyway, opening our eyes to our actual situation. If we think we've dealt with a trauma and then it comes up and bites us again in meditation, we haven't really dealt with it.

Can prayer bring the same healing? Yes, I would think so, especially things like the Our Father. I chant some mantras, but I think that Silence is also a form of prayer, and a very profound form.
 






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I can't believe that there are grown adults out here that fearfully ask for validation to whether they can meditate or not (something they could very easily experience for themselves and judge with their experience) - but not merely that but they think it's 'satanic'. ROTFL.
 






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Ok let me just try and understand, what religious propaganda do you think I have listened to? Does my relationship with Jesus and hearing what He has said to me in my heart also count as religious propaganda? So my personal relationship with Jesus is a relationship with a charlatan then? :)
Does it matter? It’s all the same. Try to find evangelical propaganda that doesn’t say the exact same thing about emptying your mind and opening yourself up to the devil. It’s all exactly the same message: meditation is evil, be afraid.

It’s not even how meditation works. You can’t meditate by emptying your mind. It will never work. You have to become the observer of your own thoughts or you will never get it. If you’re trying to empty your mind all you will accomplish is a loop of thought trying to un-think itself, which makes no sense and leads nowhere. The act of trying to un-think should never be the focus of meditation.
 






K'doshim

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Also what he says about meditation changing our perspective, believing in reincarnation etc. When we become more still, we become more open to the deeper truths of our existence. As the Psalms says "Be still and know that I am God". I don't think that means "Be still and know that what people who call themselves Christians have decided that I am is God".
Shalom, this is directly correct :)
 






Camidria

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Does it matter? It’s all the same. Try to find evangelical propaganda that doesn’t say the exact same thing about emptying your mind and opening yourself up to the devil. It’s all exactly the same message: meditation is evil, be afraid.
Yes it does, because you assume I have heard propaganda, you assume people told me a whole bunch of stuff, you ASSUME that A happened, then B then C.

Sorry, the kind of church I was involved in when I learnt of meditation didn't even talk or teach on the subject at all, but because you assume you think you know how I learned about meditation you don't even ask where I got my answers from.... No teachers, no preachers - it was like this - I PRAYED, Jesus taught me the answers - lesson learned. smh
 






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Sorry, the kind of church I was involved in when I learnt of meditation didn't even talk or teach on the subject at all
Let me guess, you went to a church from some Protestant denomination? (Baptist? Evangelical? 7th day? Methodist?)
Anyway, those "evil" forms of Christianity that predate saintly Protestantism actually did and continue to have meditation as a staple-practice. The most common form is known as 'contemplative prayer' and it's both a stable of the Orthodox and Catholic churches.

What is it with Protestants being anti-everything to do with spirituality? hmm..
 






Camidria

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Let me guess, you went to a church from some Protestant denomination? (Baptist? Evangelical? 7th day? Methodist?)
Anyway, those "evil" forms of Christianity that predate saintly Protestantism actually did and continue to have meditation as a staple-practice. The most common form is known as 'contemplative prayer' and it's both a stable of the Orthodox and Catholic churches.

What is it with Protestants being anti-everything to do with spirituality? hmm..
15 Years ago when I went to a denominational church all they could ever talk about is sin and how bad a person is. In South Africa these kind of churches are way to closeted to ever make a peep about meditation...

I haven't been to such a church in a long time, so I don't care what they do and they way they do things - they are all affiliated in one way or another with the RCC church which I don't agree with.

It was about that time that my eyes where opening and I began to have a real personal relationship with Jesus.

So don't expect me to come up for these denominations as I mostly do not agree with their teachings, they tend to focus on 30% of the scripture and toss the rest, I am happy back then I was realizing how important 100% of the scriptures is and that a personal relationship with Jesus is what I need to move ahead..
 






elsbet

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Let me guess, you went to a church from some Protestant denomination? (Baptist? Evangelical? 7th day? Methodist?)
Anyway, those "evil" forms of Christianity that predate saintly Protestantism actually did and continue to have meditation as a staple-practice. The most common form is known as 'contemplative prayer' and it's both a stable of the Orthodox and Catholic churches.

What is it with Protestants being anti-everything to do with spirituality? hmm..
Contemplative prayer is just another name for transcendental meditation. It's popular in the 'Emergent church', as well, along with onstage bands and speaking in tongues (without benefit of an interpreter)-- some were even preaching getting stoned in the spirit . Regardless, Catholicism is not biblical... neither are any of the aforementioned practices.
 






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Contemplative prayer is just another name for transcendental meditation.
That's an odd thing for you to say. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was born in the 20th century, there is no relation between the two.

It's popular in the 'Emergent church', as well, along with onstage bands and speaking in tongues (without benefit of an interpreter)-- some were even preaching getting stoned in the spirit .
That is Pentecostal Protestantism, which actually does bare connections to pre-Christian Jewish practice (but that's a whole other can of worms, a cool one though), not contemplative prayer.

Regardless, Catholicism is not biblical...
None of Christianity is Biblical. It just happens to be that you practice an innovation that spawned from Martin Luther. Catholics have the upper hand, they've been around longer and have closer ties to Paul himself than you Protestants ever will have. Afterall your anti-spiritual dogmatic religiosity is as far away from the historical Jesus you could possibly get.
Instead of worshiping God, you worship the Bible and deny the benefits of a legitimate tradition that will bring you closer to God. That's not my loss (that's the loss of Protestants and their pathetic 'reformation').

Aside from this, "Catholicism is not Biblical" is just repeating the mantra of Protestantism. We know that Protestants split and invented their own DIY Christianity using this kind of rhetoric. But you clearly can't see the kind of blind assumptions you have to make to come to this conclusion. Protestants hate Catholicism, it's no closet secret, it's your defining trait for establishing independent subjective authority; essentially building your own separate traditions outside of their own. Unfortunately the things you rejected from Catholicism are the only things that were good about Christianity. You rejected the good things about Christianity and enhanced everything bad about Christianity. As I said, Catholicism significantly has the upper hand in practically every respect.

The strange thing however that remains, is that you kept most of their canon. It's strange indeed. You Protestants in many ways are post-Gnostic in the sense of your antagonism (just like 1st/2nd century Christians were towards Jews....although that hasn't changed much..) You offer a product in response to what you see to be a problem within an established tradition but you inevitably make what pales in comparison and is utterly ineffective at achieving it's spiritual goals.

neither are any of the aforementioned practices.
Care to cite anything?
 






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Besides the "unbiblical" comment you made is a significant oversimplification of the interpretation of religious texts, which is unsurprisingly considered irrelevant by you Protestants. You also act like Catholics haven't read the Bible or that they are teaching a completely different religion. Both of which are false and biased assumptions. This kind of simple-mindedness is not at all an isolated phenomena, it's quite often the basis of your rhetoric and the reason why Protestantism is a fuel for paranoid conspiracy theories.

Anyway, there were many types of Churches that predated Protestantism, all of which stem from the Early Church as per origin (the two most important being Catholic and Orthodox). Certainly none of them were anything like Protestantism. The nerve you Protestants have to step them out and claim them to be unchristian is quite hilarious because it shows such shortsightedness.
Even towards the end of Martin Luther's life himself, he sensed the negative consequences of his actions. He never stood down in his agenda because of his zealousness but he did catch a glance at what he was actually doing.
 






elsbet

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That's an odd thing for you to say. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was born in the 20th century, there is no relation between the two.
Just because he registered the term as a trademark, does not mean he invented it-- he simply capitalized on it. It is Vedic (Hindu) in origin and it has been around for a very long time.

That is Pentecostal Protestantism, which actually does bare connections to pre-Christian Jewish practice (but that's a whole other can of worms, a cool one though), not contemplative prayer.
Right.. have a google on the matter.

None of Christianity is Biblical. It just happens to be that you practice an innovation that spawned from Martin Luther. Catholics have the upper hand, they've been around longer and have closer ties to Paul himself than you Protestants ever will have. Afterall your anti-spiritual dogmatic religiosity is as far away from the historical Jesus you could possibly get.
Instead of worshiping God, you worship the Bible and deny the benefits of a legitimate tradition that will bring you closer to God. That's not my loss (that's the loss of Protestants and their pathetic 'reformation').

Aside from this, "Catholicism is not Biblical" is just repeating the mantra of Protestantism. We know that Protestants split and invented their own DIY Christianity using this kind of rhetoric. But you clearly can't see the kind of blind assumptions you have to make to come to this conclusion. Protestants hate Catholicism, it's no closet secret, it's your defining trait for establishing independent subjective authority; essentially building your own separate traditions outside of their own. Unfortunately the things you rejected from Catholicism are the only things that were good about Christianity. You rejected the good things about Christianity and enhanced everything bad about Christianity. As I said, Catholicism significantly has the upper hand in practically every respect.

The strange thing however that remains, is that you kept most of their canon. It's strange indeed. You Protestants in many ways are post-Gnostic in the sense of your antagonism (just like 1st/2nd century Christians were towards Jews....although that hasn't changed much..) You offer a product in response to what you see to be a problem within an established tradition but you inevitably make what pales in comparison and is utterly ineffective at achieving it's spiritual goals.
You watch too much tv. :rolleyes:
 






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Just because he registered the term as a trademark, does not mean he invented it-- he simply capitalized on it. It is Vedic (Hindu) in origin and it has been around for a very long time.
You clearly don't know anything about Transcendental Meditation, nor Hinduism's yogic practices. I'd say stop before you embarrass yourself more than you already have. If you do not wish to talk about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's system, then mention another one. T.M. is a 20th century system and movement.

Right.. have a google on the matter.
Yes, I'm sure you have to.

You watch too much tv. :rolleyes:
I watch 0% television and have none in my house. (fun fact, back in my teen years I managed to convince my parents to ditch their television because I was very fiercely opposed to it but they weren't. Ah memories!)

For the record this was a bad attempt at dodging on your part too, because it's clear that you are merely repeating Protestant rhetorical phrases without ever having come to those conclusions through any kind of intellectual analysis, scriptural analysis, experience, anthropology, sociology, even basic history etc.

Although Bible verses like Genesis 24:63, Joshua 1:8, Psalm 1:2, Psalm 4:4, Psalm 49:3, Psalm 104:34, even Isaiah 55:8-9, etc, are waiting impatiently for you.
 






Robin

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None of Christianity is Biblical. It just happens to be that you practice an innovation that spawned from Martin Luther.
Can you show this?

Catholics have the upper hand, they've been around longer and have closer ties to Paul himself than you Protestants ever will have. Afterall your anti-spiritual dogmatic religiosity is as far away from the historical Jesus you could possibly get.
Well this same predating and proximity argument can be applied to Christianity versus Islam no?

Instead of worshiping God, you worship the Bible and deny the benefits of a legitimate tradition that will bring you closer to God. That's not my loss (that's the loss of Protestants and their pathetic 'reformation').
I thought you just said that nothing about Christianity is biblical. How is it possible that they worship the bible then? I think you base a lot of your position on broad generalisations without really knowing exactly what it is people truly believe.

Aside from this, "Catholicism is not Biblical" is just repeating the mantra of Protestantism. We know that Protestants split and invented their own DIY Christianity using this kind of rhetoric. But you clearly can't see the kind of blind assumptions you have to make to come to this conclusion.
Easily a third of my family are Catholic. I don't hate Catholics. Things I know about Catholicism came from observing what they do and not blind assumptions. And there are many rites and rituals that have more in common with pagan practices. But I did look them up just to make sure I wasn't going off of personal experience alone.

"The medieval Catholic Church’s beliefs, worship, and structure was very similar to what’s found in a modern Catholic parish today. Until Vatican II (1962-1965), the Catholic Church worshipped and prayed in Latin, the language of the Roman Empire. Priests, Catholic ordained ministers, began practicing celibacy by papal decree in the 1000s. The current liturgy of the Mass, the service order for Catholic worship, dates from the Middle Ages, as does the practice of devotion to the saints and the Blessed Virgin."
https://worldhistory.us/medieval-history/a-brief-history-of-the-catholic-church-during-the-middle-ages.php

Theres the seven sacraments, the use of the rosary, the self-created holy days:
  • January 1: The Feast of Mary, the Mother of God.
  • 40 days after Easter Sunday: Ascension Thursday.
  • August 15: Assumption of Mary into heaven.
  • November 1: All Saints' Day.
  • December 8: The Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
  • December 25: Christmas, the Nativity of Our Lord.
. . . None of that is biblical. Never mind the pagan motifs visible in the architecture, statues, cathedrals etc. Sun worship -thats what I found.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves."

Acts 7:43
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

shamash-tablet.jpg

Above is a tablet from the early 9th century B.C. which depicts the Babylonian sun-god Shamash seated on the right, holding emblems of his authority, a staff and ring, and the king with two attendants on the left. In the center, on an altar, is a large 4-point sun image, with additional small wavy rays between the points.

altar-diagram.gif
This is an altar diagram from Ceremonial for the use of the Catholic Churches in the United States of America published by H. L. Kilner & Co., 1926.

The above diagram of the Catholic altar shows the same general Babylonian sun symbol. In the photo below, behind Pope John Paul II, on the front of the altar of St. Peter's Basilica, you see a tapestry with a sunburst design nearly identical to the pagan sun-god symbol of Baal / Shamash. This tapestry is called the altar frontal, antipendium (antependium), or pallium altaris:

altar.jpg
hazor-baal-2.jpg
pentecost-2001.jpg

There's more but all you have to do is look up sunburst/star symbolism in Catholicism and cross reference ancient pagan sun god motifs. There are no true "Christian" symbols. The bible doesnt say to observe any image or statue, not even the cross. The biggest thing that bugged me though was this:

dagon4.jpg

The papal ferula. It always bothered me how Catholicism depicted the suffering of Jesus not only in brutal detail but perpetually. He's no longer on the cross and the tomb is empty. For Christians, that's where the power behind his death lies -his resurrection by God's power. That is my contention with Catholicism. Not Catholics -Catholicism. It's healthy to be able to make a distinction between people and their beliefs even if you don't agree with them.

Protestants hate Catholicism, it's no closet secret, it's your defining trait for establishing independent subjective authority; essentially building your own separate traditions outside of their own. Unfortunately the things you rejected from Catholicism are the only things that were good about Christianity. You rejected the good things about Christianity and enhanced everything bad about Christianity.
Again, a lot of conjecture. I don't personally hate Catholics just like I don't automatically hate anyone who has a different belief system than I do. Why would I? But you're misrepresenting why the reformation took place. You're going to ignore the major political power held by the Catholic church prior to the reformation? Or the monopoly they kept on the bible by keeping it in Latin? The reformation happened because of the clergy abuse and greed of the sixteenth century church. I don't really like Wikipedia but here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

Not unlike the abuse and greed permeating many strains of "Christianity" today as well. I can acknowledge that because like we've discussed before I don't care too much for labels.

@Infinityloop, if I may ask, why do you dislike Christians so much? Is it just the ones on this board that rub you up the wrong way or do you dislike the entire belief system? I'm trying to understand here, not being facetious.
 






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Can you show this?
What? my sarcastic response to her absurd notion that Catholic Christianity is 'not Biblical'?

Well this same predating and proximity argument can be applied to Christianity versus Islam no?
Are you even replying to what I commented on there?
But yes, Islamic tradition is embodied in one of the central aspects of Islamic practice which is following the Sunnah (of which Sharia is derived). The Qur'an, hadith collections and seerah of Muhammad all in conjunction with physical, real-world history have all preserved the Islamic way of life including it's ritual practice.
There was no effort to preserve anything as tightly in Christianity. Judaism is more contentious although they've preserved their own rituals quite well.
The original forms of Christianity which gradually spawned into the two classical forms of Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodox) are by nature closer to the practices of the Early Church, this is just fact.
The same can never be said for most forms of Protestantism (except for the aforementioned by elsbet, Pentecostalism).

I thought you just said that nothing about Christianity is biblical. How is it possible that they worship the bible then?
Just commenting on people's religious OCD (not of the good kind though).

Easily a third of my family are Catholic. I don't hate Catholics. Things I know about Catholicism came from observing what they do and not blind assumptions. And there are many rites and rituals that have more in common with pagan practices. But I did look them up just to make sure I wasn't going off of personal experience alone.

"The medieval Catholic Church’s beliefs, worship, and structure was very similar to what’s found in a modern Catholic parish today. Until Vatican II (1962-1965), the Catholic Church worshipped and prayed in Latin, the language of the Roman Empire. Priests, Catholic ordained ministers, began practicing celibacy by papal decree in the 1000s. The current liturgy of the Mass, the service order for Catholic worship, dates from the Middle Ages, as does the practice of devotion to the saints and the Blessed Virgin."
https://worldhistory.us/medieval-history/a-brief-history-of-the-catholic-church-during-the-middle-ages.php

Theres the seven sacraments, the use of the rosary, the self-created holy days:
  • January 1: The Feast of Mary, the Mother of God.
  • 40 days after Easter Sunday: Ascension Thursday.
  • August 15: Assumption of Mary into heaven.
  • November 1: All Saints' Day.
  • December 8: The Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
  • December 25: Christmas, the Nativity of Our Lord.
. . . None of that is biblical. Never mind the pagan motifs visible in the architecture, statues, cathedrals etc. Sun worship -thats what I found.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves."

Acts 7:43
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

View attachment 26036

Above is a tablet from the early 9th century B.C. which depicts the Babylonian sun-god Shamash seated on the right, holding emblems of his authority, a staff and ring, and the king with two attendants on the left. In the center, on an altar, is a large 4-point sun image, with additional small wavy rays between the points.

View attachment 26037
This is an altar diagram from Ceremonial for the use of the Catholic Churches in the United States of America published by H. L. Kilner & Co., 1926.

The above diagram of the Catholic altar shows the same general Babylonian sun symbol. In the photo below, behind Pope John Paul II, on the front of the altar of St. Peter's Basilica, you see a tapestry with a sunburst design nearly identical to the pagan sun-god symbol of Baal / Shamash. This tapestry is called the altar frontal, antipendium (antependium), or pallium altaris:

View attachment 26038
View attachment 26039
View attachment 26040

There's more but all you have to do is look up sunburst/star symbolism in Catholicism and cross reference ancient pagan sun god motifs. There are no true "Christian" symbols. The bible doesnt say to observe any image or statue, not even the cross. The biggest thing that bugged me though was this:

View attachment 26041
I do know of basically all of this, I've read enough conspiracy theories about the Vatican to know what people think about them. Can't say I agree with your interpretation though.

However I will ask, say you were 100% correct, then so what?

The entire Abrahamic tradition in many ways is a polemic against Paganism. It's not something I haven't noticed. The New Testament, The Qur'an, the Torah, it's there. The Bible itself (far far more than the Qur'an) appropriates and reinvents pagan motifs often for the purpose of often simply converting, other times to antagonize and other times as a poetic reflection.

The obvious examples are the entire Apocalypse of St John, the book of Daniel, the book of Genesis (and so on).
Interestingly all three books are very much foundational to many of the doctrines of most forms of Christianity.


The papal ferula. It always bothered me how Catholicism depicted the suffering of Jesus not only in brutal detail but perpetually. He's no longer on the cross and the tomb is empty. For Christians, that's where the power behind his death lies -his resurrection by God's power. That is my contention with Catholicism. Not Catholics -Catholicism. It's healthy to be able to make a distinction between people and their beliefs even if you don't agree with them.
I don't get what your point is here, you're merely appealing to sentiment.

Again, a lot of conjecture. I don't personally hate Catholics just like I don't automatically hate anyone who has a different belief system than I do. Why would I? But you're misrepresenting why the reformation took place. You're going to ignore the major political power held by the Catholic church prior to the reformation? Or the monopoly they kept on the bible by keeping it in Latin? The reformation happened because of the clergy abuse and greed of the sixteenth century church. I don't really like Wikipedia but here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation
I never spoke about why the reformation took place, I spoke about it's spiritual and social function.

Not unlike the abuse and greed permeating many strains of "Christianity" today as well. I can acknowledge that because like we've discussed before I don't care too much for labels.
Yes, because the Protestant reformation (and the consequent hundreds of sects that came out of it) did not solve the problem. It made a false diagnosis. People like Joel Osteen and your average run-of-the-mill former-alcoholic baptist preacher are going to become obvious repercussions. This is setting aside from the fact that Protestantism took on the same typical shame and guilt from Catholicism, continuing to traumatize generation after generation. It is the matter of the same old poison dispersing under another guise.

This is all aside from the topic of this thread which is that Protestants at large rejected the spiritual practices of Catholicism, turning Christianity from a spiritual journey about connection with (and reflection on the mysteries of) God into just a book club for people that really just want to believe in having a belief to believe in.


Yours sincerely,
Infinityloop :)
 






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Just remember when you're praying, that God gave man נְשָׁמָה (neshamah - Spirit, breath, consciousness etc) for a reason.
 






Robin

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What? my sarcastic response to her absurd notion that Catholic Christianity is 'not Biblical'?
No, your assertion that nothing about Christianity (not Catholicism) is biblical and that Martin Luther was basically the originator of what (you think) they practice.

Are you even replying to what I commented on there?
But yes, Islamic tradition is embodied in one of the central aspects of Islamic practice which is following the Sunnah (of which Sharia is derived). The Qur'an, hadith collections and seerah of Muhammad all in conjunction with physical, real-world history have all preserved the Islamic way of life including it's ritual practice.
There was no effort to preserve anything as tightly in Christianity. Judaism is more contentious although they've preserved their own rituals quite well.
The original forms of Christianity which gradually spawned into the two classical forms of Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodox) are by nature closer to the practices of the Early Church, this is just fact.
The same can never be said for most forms of Protestantism (except for the aforementioned by elsbet, Pentecostalism).
I only responded to your point about Catholicism having the upper hand because it predates "protestantism".

Just commenting on people's religious OCD (not of the good kind though).
So they have religious OCD following a religion that is not consistent with a book they supposedly worship.

I do know of basically all of this, I've read enough conspiracy theories about the Vatican to know what people think about them. Can't say I agree with your interpretation though.
They're not conspiracy theories though. They're correlations between symbology and practice where they overlap. What's your interpretation considering you claimed earlier that "Catholics have the upper hand, they've been around longer and have closer ties to Paul himself than you Protestants ever will have. Afterall your anti-spiritual dogmatic religiosity is as far away from the historical Jesus you could possibly get."?

However I will ask, say you were 100% correct, then so what?
If I was 100% correct, nothing I believe or claimed would be effected. It makes no difference to me. You'd be the one better suited to pose that question to.

The entire Abrahamic tradition in many ways is a polemic against Paganism. It's not something I haven't noticed. The New Testament, The Qur'an, the Torah, it's there. The Bible itself (far far more than the Qur'an) appropriates and reinvents pagan motifs often for the purpose of often simply converting, other times to antagonize and other times as a poetic reflection.

The obvious examples are the entire Apocalypse of St John, the book of Daniel, the book of Genesis (and so on).
Interestingly all three books are very much foundational to many of the doctrines of most forms of Christianity.
I'm going to have to ask you to elaborate on which pagan motifs were appropriated and how you arrived to this conclusion.

I don't get what your point is here, you're merely appealing to sentiment.
My point is answering the accusations you made about Christians hating Catholics and why. I merely clarified the issues I had with it. You said:
Aside from this, "Catholicism is not Biblical" is just repeating the mantra of Protestantism. We know that Protestants split and invented their own DIY Christianity using this kind of rhetoric. But you clearly can't see the kind of blind assumptions you have to make to come to this conclusion.
Protestants hate Catholicism, it's no closet secret, it's your defining trait for establishing independent subjective authority; essentially building your own separate traditions outside of their own. Unfortunately the things you rejected from Catholicism are the only things that were good about Christianity. You rejected the good things about Christianity and enhanced everything bad about Christianity. As I said, Catholicism significantly has the upper hand in practically every respect.
It's not just sentimentality, it's not doctrinally sound. The resurrection was how Christ ultimately gained victory over the power of sin and death according to the bible. What are the implications of keeping him on the cross?

I never spoke about why the reformation took place, I spoke about it's spiritual and social function.
"Protestants hate Catholicism, it's no closet secret, it's your defining trait for establishing independent subjective authority"

Apologies, I must have read you wrong then.

Yes, because the Protestant reformation (and the consequent hundreds of sects that came out of it) did not solve the problem. It made a false diagnosis. People like Joel Osteen and your average run-of-the-mill former-alcoholic baptist preacher are going to become obvious repercussions. This is setting aside from the fact that Protestantism took on the same typical shame and guilt from Catholicism, continuing to traumatize generation after generation. It is the matter of the same old poison dispersing under another guise.
You speak again of mainstream Christianity. That is poison. You know exactly what I believe and where I stand on this. I won't repeat myself.

This is all aside from the topic of this thread which is that Protestants at large rejected the spiritual practices of Catholicism, turning Christianity from a spiritual journey into connection with God into just a book club for people that really just want to believe in having a belief to believe in.


Yours sincerely,
Infinityloop :)
Cute. Maybe "bookclub" Christianity was what you were exposed to of Christianity growing up. But it doesn't make it the objective truth. Also, last time I checked the topic had nothing to do with Catholicism or Protestantism.
 






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