Spirituality moving forward.

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yeah of course, there's the whole idea of the serpent being the liberator from the false paradise of the Demiurge...

Never underestimate the power of a good storyteller...

 

[shankara]

I agree that it is not comforting to the drop of water to re-enter the ocean, back to the “one”...

This has got me thinking a little about the whole concept of salvation in the East. You could say that in Hinduism there is an idea of universal salvation, though it's something which takes place over vast scales of time and involves an incredible degree of suffering through perpetual embodiment (and not only in human forms). There is at least one school of Hindu philosophy which doesn't accept this however.

But the Buddhist perspective is more interesting. So far as I understand Buddha never answered the question about whether all beings would eventually attain Nirvana. "Salvation" though is only a product of our own efforts, the intensity and direction of which are in themselves to some extent or another conditioned by past karma. No-one is going to save us, we can only save ourselves.

Honestly I would love it if at the end of this one life in this "vale of tears" we could simply all "go home". No more pain, no more birth, death, all the horror of this twisted world. If such an option were available, I wouldn't be totally averse to it, however I believe that if such a thing were possible (salvation just by "belief") this would actually be against the Divine order of things. Look how for centuries the powerful kept the people in subjection through this religion of "paradise by belief". As an Industrial Workers of the World song goes:

"Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll eat pie in the sky when you die"

This sort of fairytale is not in the real sense religion. It is a means of social control with certain surviving elements of genuine religious traditions. I'm not a Catholic, but the Catholics for all their flaws have at least preserved in their rituals some of the deeper symbolism, the "Pagan" symbolism which so many people here seem to think is pure evil.

Detached from the roots, everything withers and dies.

 

[Lisa]

This sort of fairytale is not in the real sense religion. It is a means of social control with certain surviving elements of genuine religious traditions. I'm not a Catholic, but the Catholics for all their flaws have at least preserved in their rituals some of the deeper symbolism, the "Pagan" symbolism which so many people here seem to think is pure evil.

People shouldn’t add or subtract from the Bible...people then lose their faith and fall away from the true faith...that’s the problem.

 

[Todd]

This has got me thinking a little about the whole concept of salvation in the East. You could say that in Hinduism there is an idea of universal salvation, though it's something which takes place over vast scales of time and involves an incredible degree of suffering through perpetual embodiment (and not only in human forms). There is at least one school of Hindu philosophy which doesn't accept this however.

But the Buddhist perspective is more interesting. So far as I understand Buddha never answered the question about whether all beings would eventually attain Nirvana. "Salvation" though is only a product of our own efforts, the intensity and direction of which are in themselves to some extent or another conditioned by past karma. No-one is going to save us, we can only save ourselves.

Honestly I would love it if at the end of this one life in this "vale of tears" we could simply all "go home". No more pain, no more birth, death, all the horror of this twisted world. If such an option were available, I wouldn't be totally averse to it, however I believe that if such a thing were possible (salvation just by "belief") this would actually be against the Divine order of things. Look how for centuries the powerful kept the people in subjection through this religion of "paradise by belief". As an Industrial Workers of the World song goes:

"Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll eat pie in the sky when you die"

This sort of fairytale is not in the real sense religion. It is a means of social control with certain surviving elements of genuine religious traditions. I'm not a Catholic, but the Catholics for all their flaws have at least preserved in their rituals some of the deeper symbolism, the "Pagan" symbolism which so many people here seem to think is pure evil.

Detached from the roots, everything withers and dies.

I believe that the gospel of the New Testament teaches something similar minus the concept that a soul is reborn or embodied again into the current temporal world we live in. Instead I believe the Lake of Fire (not neccessarily a literal physical lake) from the Bible is a figurative term for the process that un-sanctified souls will go through in the ages to come, to be recoconciled to God. Those who are born again and sanctified in this lifetime will not need to endure that process, but will become the bride of Christ and assist in ministering healing and deliverance to those who come out of the figurative Lake of Fire. When every soul has been purified and sanctified, Christ will hand over the kingdom to God so that we are all united in him.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[MoDc]

Darwin knew next to nothing about Biochemistry so his little warm pond story could make sense to him. The problem is that the minimum viable standard for abiogenesis is so improbable that it is effectively impossible. If you can address the concerns of Dr James Tour in his open letter to his peers, you have something to say scientifically. Polemic has no place in the lab, both creation and evolution are “unscientific” in the narrow sense as both are metaphysical. Both require faith is something that is presently not being observed. Weigh the options and take your choice.

The impossibility of Abiogenesis leaves Evolution still born.

Overcoming that impossibility by a materialistic miracle, the compounding unbridgeable chasm of irreducible complexity leaves our “black swan” life form with nowhere to go.

Lightning could conceivably cause the conditions for basic life to form, it can create the amino acids that eventually became life. Regardless as I have stated to you countless times abiogenesis and evolution don’t have anything to do with each other. No one knows exactly how life came about but we do know that evolution is the means of it. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. Maybe some force directed it I don’t know, but the creation myth is simply that, a myth.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Regardless as I have stated to you countless times abiogenesis and evolution don’t have anything to do with each other.

Apart from the latter requiring the former? I note with interest that you make no case for abiogenesis becoming a possibility. What about a minimum set of functioning cell organelles or a viable cell membrane? What of DNA and RNA sharing a language convention to make protein synthesis work. All required to make ONE functional cell btw...

 

[MoDc]

Apart from the latter requiring the former? I note with interest that you make no case for abiogenesis becoming a possibility. What about a minimum set of functioning cell organelles or a viable cell membrane? What of DNA and RNA sharing a language convention to make protein synthesis work. All required to make ONE functional cell btw...

The Miller-Urey experiments showed that the material can be naturally created, there are some interesting hypotheses about the chemical conditions around hydrothermal vents that sound promising. Regardless just because we haven’t figured out exactly how life started doesn’t mean that God exists (especially your particular one). We’re talking about millions upon millions of years for this to happen, most people can’t actually understand that kind of time given our brief 70 or so years.

 

[Artful Revealer]

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Miller-Urey experiments showed that the material can be naturally created,

I agree - It created a number of the simpler amino acids.

Where we have an issue is that the electrochemical forces creating these amino acids are about 100,000 times more destructive than they are creative, leading Miller-Urey to require a trap in their apparatus. Darwins “little warm pond” does not have a “trap“ that is able to beat the odds and isolate the biological molecules from the destructive environment of the proposed “reducing” early earth atmosphere.

there are some interesting hypotheses about the chemical conditions around hydrothermal vents that sound promising.

If they could manage to include a viable selective trap it might help advance the discussion a step, so let us for the sake of argument grant our trap that experiment but not nature provides. What then?

Stochastic chemistry produces “chiral” (left and right handed forms) of these amino acids. Imagine rummaging is a draw in the dark and picking out perhaps 100 right handed socks in a row? Long odds?

Again, let the odds be ever in your favour and imagine you get lucky once and get a statistical anomaly of an actual protein... In our early earth conditions, what happens to it? Where does our promising biological brick go to become “life”?

From here it must find carbohydrates, phospholipids and much more. Don’t forget, this is just to get the raw materials of a cell together. My evolutionary colleagues would breathes sigh of relief at this point as though their case was made if they could hypothetically reach this stage, but in actuality, this is where the difficulties really begin. I wonder if you can see why?

Regardless just because we haven’t figured out exactly how life started doesn’t mean that God exists (especially your particular one).

Indeed. In a court of law, ruling out one line of enquiry does not automatically validate another.

That is a separate matter, but I have to question you on why you conclude that the Judeo-Christian God is especially unqualified to be a creator? From an idea of capacity and intention, could you picture a kind of god more capable of creating the “heavens and the earth”?

We’re talking about millions upon millions of years for this to happen, most people can’t actually understand that kind of time given our brief 70 or so years.

This is one thing many of my evolutionary friends fail to grasp. Time is not the friend of unstable biological molecules. They simply don’t last very long at all. If you think protein creation from amino acids sounds hard, biological carbohydrates are even more fraught with problems (especially in the area of stability) for our atheist scientist.

There is so much more that could be said but I find that long posts are less readable.

For greater depth on this subject I refer anyone interested to a talk by Dr James Tour, a synthetic organic chemist, who is particularly well qualified to address the topic.

 

[Daciple]

Who knows how it will turn out, but your God can prove his existence to me or he can get lost. If he real he can do it at any time.

I’d rather not fry and if he were to prove it ( not going to happen ) of course I’d acquiesce

If he shows me his awesome power clearly without any bullshit or allegory than damn right I’d get on my knees.

So I will be honest with you, I do not believe for one moment that you actually care to come to know the One True God, look at how your heart is positioned. It is clear that your heart is not at all turned toward truly wanting to know God. First off you stand as tho you are above God and try and demand from Him what and how He should reveal Himself to you?

That is not a heart that is truly desiring to know God. This is an example of the type of heart that truly wants to know God and one in which God will reveal Himself too:

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

When or if you ever come to a point where you truly have a broken and contrite heart, then you may actually be in a position where God would reveal Himself to you, but as long as your heart is turned from Him and hardened, as long as you stand upon your own pedestol as tho God needs to bow to you, I dont believe you would ever actually find Him, why? Because you really dont want to, just be honest.

Secondly there was a man named Job whose heart wasnt even nearly has hardened or turned against God as yours is, and this is what God had to say to him when he demanded of God to explain Himself to him.

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

It may do you well to read the rest of the Book from that point on, see if you can answer the questions God posed to Job, maybe it would humble you a bit and put your heart into a position where you could actually come to hear from the God that created you.

Its funny because one of his questions is this:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Essentially what God asks Job is where were you when He created the Earth, if you have the understanding then go ahead and explain to Him exactly how everything that came into being, came into being. If you dare question Him or demand of Him, first try to answer and explain Creation, something He can do in day, yet you dare stand in your arrogance and demand of Him anything?

No one knows exactly how life came about

Looks like you cant even answer the very first and most simple question God poses, until then you may want to check your ego at the door if you ever truly want to have God reveal Himself to you, but I have a feeling that you will make some argument about not wanting to worship a God that demands from you anything, let alone a heart that isnt full of Pride. Which is why I say I really dont believe you want God to reveal Himself to you, you love to believe yourself as god...

Furthermore, you stated instantaneously that God cant or wouldnt reveal Himself to you, but with that attitude and heart it isnt that God cant its that God wont, again there is position YOU need to find YOURSELF in if you actually want to come to know the One True God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If you continue in a heart of Pride, demanding of God in how He must reveal Himself to you and stand in disbelief, then its for sure you wont find Him, but even tho you want to blame Him, it of course is your own fault.

It is to each their own, but if I or anyone else were to actually take you serious in your desire to know the One True God, and if you actually do, then you need to Humble yourself, and search out God with a broken and contrite heart, believing He exists and will reveal Himself to you. A Prideful heart, one that demands of Him, and wont even believe, that heart will not truly seek thus not find God.

The only prayers that could be affect for you, if you truly care to see God, is that God puts you into a position where you realize your inferiority and desperate need for Him, so that your heart is softened, so that your Pride is removed, so that you are contrite before Him and then truly cry out believing and hoping that He will come to you. If you get there, then it assured that He will reveal Himself, but the real question is, do you want to know Him? Do you want to come the way He demands of you, or will you hold to your Pride and Disbelief. Heres to God showing you and putting you into that position where you get over yourself and look to Him in a broken Spirit and in Faith...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The big issue...

Given our mix of biological molecules above, however improbable, will they organise themselves up to life even given optimal conditions? Every can of food is an experiment waiting with baited breath for the miracle of life to burst forth. With all the right ingredients and agreeable temperature, these are the conditions where scientists eagerly anticipate novel life to emerge. Sadly, something is missing...

Biology could be viewed as the nexus of Chemistry and Information Theory. Life Could be viewed as the software that runs on the hardware of these biological molecules. Without the encoding and decoding of meaningful instructions between DNA and RNA, no upward organisation is possible. In King Lear by Shakespeare, the king declares “nothing comes of nothing” which seems rather apt in this case.

Reductionist science does not (and cannot) provide the information (or Logos) that life requires.

You might know that Anthony Flew, one of the fathers of modern atheism had a change of mind...

 

[Daciple]

Look how for centuries the powerful kept the people in subjection through this religion of "paradise by belief"

I just wonder if you simply ignore the fact that the people who have accepted Salvation by Belief in Christ are the ones that have been hunted down and murdered the most throughout the inception of Christianity?

Rome tried to murder them when it was created, then Rome tried to stomp them out by inclusion and the RCC.

Then came the Muslims who tried and are still in conquest to murder the people who get paradise by belief.

Then came even more persecution by the RCC as they tried everything in their power to murder all the people who rejected their hijacking of the Faith, making it that you must serve the Church to get to paradise. These people got the Bible and read it for themselves, and then realized that the RCC was false and started back believing its Paradise by Belief and started getting murdered.

This same pattern has been played out since the inception of Paradise by Belief, as we have all the Atheistic Statists murdering off in the millions the people who say Paradise is by Belief in the past century.

We also see it currently all over the World where the Text that proclaims that Paradise is by Belief is illegal in dozens of countries, and those who abided by the doctrine are being murdered daily just because they believe and proclaim that one thing.

Seems to me that if Paradise by Belief was just a fundamental method of enslavement for The Powers That Be, we would be undulated every moment by the need to accept that belief by them. In every TV Show, in all the Political Policies, in all the Music, in all the Movies. However that isnt what we see now is it?

Nope we see the complete opposite, Paradise by Belief is ridiculed and mocked in all forms of TV and Movies and Music, it is relentlessly stalked and is trying to be wiped out by most Political Parties and in the Education World, every where you turn Paradise by Belief is being or hoping and trying to be done away with.

Makes you wonder if the doctrine and propaganda you are allowing to influence your belief concerning the idea that Paradise by Belief is used to enslave people is actually the Truth.

Let me know when Christians stop getting murdered by States of Power, when Christians are not mocked, spit upon and hated in Media, TV, Movies and Music. When Christianity is no longer taught to be terrible by Educators who are nothing but the puppets of the Elite, tell me about it. When the Bible is no longer illegal upon jail, beating or death in dozens of countries, holler at your boy.

Until then logic can only dictate that Paradise by Belief is the #1 thing that those in Power hate the most and want to eradicate...

 

[shankara]

I just wonder if you simply ignore the fact that the people who have accepted Salvation by Belief in Christ are the ones that have been hunted down and murdered the most throughout the inception of Christianity?

Rome tried to murder them when it was created, then Rome tried to stomp them out by inclusion and the RCC.

Then came the Muslims who tried and are still in conquest to murder the people who get paradise by belief.

Then came even more persecution by the RCC as they tried everything in their power to murder all the people who rejected their hijacking of the Faith, making it that you must serve the Church to get to paradise. These people got the Bible and read it for themselves, and then realized that the RCC was false and started back believing its Paradise by Belief and started getting murdered.

This same pattern has been played out since the inception of Paradise by Belief, as we have all the Atheistic Statists murdering off in the millions the people who say Paradise is by Belief in the past century.

We also see it currently all over the World where the Text that proclaims that Paradise is by Belief is illegal in dozens of countries, and those who abided by the doctrine are being murdered daily just because they believe and proclaim that one thing.

Seems to me that if Paradise by Belief was just a fundamental method of enslavement for The Powers That Be, we would be undulated every moment by the need to accept that belief by them. In every TV Show, in all the Political Policies, in all the Music, in all the Movies. However that isnt what we see now is it?

Nope we see the complete opposite, Paradise by Belief is ridiculed and mocked in all forms of TV and Movies and Music, it is relentlessly stalked and is trying to be wiped out by most Political Parties and in the Education World, every where you turn Paradise by Belief is being or hoping and trying to be done away with.

Makes you wonder if the doctrine and propaganda you are allowing to influence your belief concerning the idea that Paradise by Belief is used to enslave people is actually the Truth.

Let me know when Christians stop getting murdered by States of Power, when Christians are not mocked, spit upon and hated in Media, TV, Movies and Music. When Christianity is no longer taught to be terrible by Educators who are nothing but the puppets of the Elite, tell me about it. When the Bible is no longer illegal upon jail, beating or death in dozens of countries, holler at your boy.

Until then logic can only dictate that Paradise by Belief is the #1 thing that those in Power hate the most and want to eradicate...

I don't see Protestants being persecuted more than Muslims or anyone else. In what countries is the Bible banned and other religions not? Sure, under Communism Protestants were being persecuted too, but right now not so much, China for example has become very accepting of Protestantism (but not so much of Islam or Tibetan Buddhism). How is Christianity being mocked in films and such more than any other religion? Please give some examples. On the other hand, the Evangelicals in America are responsible for, or at least support, a lot of the very bellicose foreign policy of that country, which genuinely is an oppressor of humanity.

So the Roman Catholic Church, yeah there is a dark side to this. Nonetheless, it still preserves certain things which Protestantism has completely lost.

Of course you would like to think that it is you who are being persecuted, because this fits in with your interpretation of the Bible. In reality, as the attitudes of many people here show, Protestantism is actually a major support for the "powers that be", i.e. America, and is itself in favor of persecution (e.g. Palestine).